Christian morals

[Catherineanne]

If you wanna discuss faith, it should be related to the topic( faith being a/the source of morals) not the off-topic(faith is important and work is not)

It is meaningless to ask any Christian to talk about morality, without us also being able to comment on what morality is, and what it is not.

You have evaded my point several times, so here it is again; Christians cannot achieve their own salvation by being moral. This is what is regarded as works theology, because our salvation is not by work of man, but by work of God.

Therefore, morality is a product of our salvation, not the agent/cause/reason for it.

 

[Mahammad]

If we truly allowed the Spirit to rule our hearts and minds to the same extent as it did in Christ himself, no doubt we could be infallible. However, that is not possible, because we remain human and therefore prone to making mistakes, and even to sinning.

It is not necessarily a sin to walk naked in public; that would depend on where you were and why you were doing it. But certainly the Holy Spirit is part of the reason why most Christians will try to reflect their faith in the way they dress and behave. No Christian can ever claim to be infallible all of the time, however. Most of us might have flashes of being right some of the time, but nowhere near as right as Christ himself was.

The Holy Spirit does not take away free will.

What about the millions who do not reflect their faith with the way they dress and behave? Are these false Christians? Or is the holy spirit not working for them?

 

[Mahammad]

It is meaningless to ask any Christian to talk about morality, without us also being able to comment on what morality is, and what it is not.

You have evaded my point several times, so here it is again; Christians cannot achieve their own salvation by being moral. This is what is regarded as works theology, because our salvation is not by work of man, but by work of God.

Therefore, morality is a product of our salvation, not the agent/cause/reason for it.

Ok I understood you now, it seems there are so many false Christians with no faith nowadays.

 

[drich0150]

So you are saying for one to have accepted "morals" one must exhibit works. rather one must implement the morals they are claiming?

So back to my original comment, Morals= works.

Now back to scripture: No amount of works/morals will ever be sufficient for one to earn their way into heaven.

This means if morality is indeed man's effort/religious effort to implement God's written or perceived will, then Religion/morals (Man's effort) is not needed for salvation.

Do you want to know why?

 

[lone soldier]

Sex is bad.

The rest are all details.

That is my understanding of christian morals.

 

[drich0150]

Sex is bad.

The rest are all details.

That is my understanding of christian morals.

Again you are mistaken about Christianity, but as you said earlier it does not matter because you will believe that no matter what the rest of Christianity actually says.

 

[lone soldier]

Again you are mistaken about Christianity, but as you said earlier it does not matter because you will believe that no matter what the rest of Christianity actually says.

No, this is what is taught.

If you have an issue with the things other christians say and teach, please take it up with THEM - not me. I did not originate such beliefs. I am merely reporting them.

 

[Catherineanne]

What about the millions who do not reflect their faith with the way they dress and behave? Are these false Christians? Or is the holy spirit not working for them?

None of us will be perfect until the day we stand before the Lord in eternity. Until then we are works in progress.

The Holy Spirit works with each of us, convicting us of sin and leading us in the right path. He may be working on me to teach me one thing, and with my brother to teach him something else. It is not for me to deride my brother for being less holy than I am in one area of life, because the chances are he is far more holy on a hundred other issues.

Therefore, the only valid concern for me is whether I am right before the Lord or not. I am not concerned to find sin in anyone else.

 

[Mahammad]

You have a habit of making very negative comments about what you do not understand. Can you ask questions without the snide remarks, do you think?

It was a very common practice for the early church for people to delay baptism until late in life, because they believed that after baptism it was important never to sin. If they did happen to sin, they thought that their salvation would be lost, and because nobody can be re-baptised, they would be damned. The problem was, of course, if they died suddenly without being baptised, that was just as bad.

The church eventually realised that we can repent of sin, even after baptism, and that our salvation is not lost. Because of this, far more people were happy to be baptised into the faith at an earlier stage.

Christians nowadays say "Jesus died for our sins and fulfilled the laws because nobody else can follow all the laws, and this is what his disciples and their followers believed", oh yes I forgot, the early Chruch fought all the heretics, but now you are telling me that the early church had also a false doctrine, hmmmmmm.

It seems it wasn't me miss understanding, it was me being misinformed.

 

[Catherineanne]

Sex is bad.

The rest are all details.

That is my understanding of christian morals.

Our whole society is pretty well obsessed with sex, and the church is not immune from that. Neither are you, for that matter, or you would not have thought to mention it. However, it is certainly not the case that any denomination teaches that sex is bad. Sex outside marriage, perhaps, but not all sex.

 

[Mahammad]

So you are saying for one to have accepted "morals" one must exhibit works. rather one must implement the morals they are claiming?

So back to my original comment, Morals= works.

Now back to scripture: No amount of works/morals will ever be sufficient for one to earn their way into heaven.

This means if morality is indeed man's effort/religious effort to implement God's written or perceived will, then Religion/morals (Man's effort) is not needed for salvation.

Do you want to know why?

I said sometimes, so sometimes morals aren't work, unless you consider not doing something is work. For example, is avoiding sex considered work?

 

[Mahammad]

Now back to scripture: No amount of works/morals will ever be sufficient for one to earn their way into heaven.

This means if morality is indeed man's effort/religious effort to implement God's written or perceived will, then Religion/morals (Man's effort) is not needed for salvation.

Do you want to know why?

Why?

 

[Catherineanne]

Christians nowadays say "Jesus died for our sins and fulfilled the laws because nobody else can follow all the laws, and this is what his disciples and their followers believed", oh yes I forgot, the early Chruch fought all the heretics, but now you are telling me that the early church had also a false doctrine, hmmmmmm.

It seems it wasn't me miss understanding, it was me being misinformed.

It was not a false doctrine. It was the early Christians being overly careful, because they did not want to dishonour their own baptism.

The doctrine was that there is only one baptism. This remains true today for pretty well all Christian denominations, and is included in the Nicene Creed. In my church (and many others) the whole congregation affirms (by reciting) this creed in every single service.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

English versions of the Nicene Creed in current use - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mahammad]

None of us will be perfect until the day we stand before the Lord in eternity. Until then we are works in progress.

The Holy Spirit works with each of us, convicting us of sin and leading us in the right path. He may be working on me to teach me one thing, and with my brother to teach him something else. It is not for me to deride my brother for being less holy than I am in one area of life, because the chances are he is far more holy on a hundred other issues.

Therefore, the only valid concern for me is whether I am right before the Lord or not. I am not concerned to find sin in anyone else.

Again, you said that Faith is reflected by morals. If these people have faith but no morals how is these 2 can't be separated?

 

[Catherineanne]

I said sometimes, so sometimes morals aren't work, unless you consider not doing something is work. For example, is avoiding sex considered work?

I think if you swap the phrase 'working our way to God' for the single word 'work', you may see what is meant.

Man cannot work his way to God. God has to reach towards us.

If we attempt by any behaviour to work our way to God, we will fail, because it simply cannot be done. In that context avoiding illicit sex is a work; it is attempting to reach God by being good. This cannot be done, because the very best of our good is still far short of God's own goodness.

 

[Catherineanne]

Again, you said that Faith is reflected by morals. If these people have faith but no morals how is these 2 can't be separated?

Because we are all at a different stage of our journey of faith. A new Christian will have particular challenges that will be very different from those of a Christian who has been following the Lord all his life. I cannot see how anyone can follow the Lord and be without any morals, however. That seems rather unlikely.

It is not for any of us to criticise anyone else's journey. Most of us have far too much to do in sorting out our own sins, to have the time to worry about other people's.

 

[Mahammad]

It was not a false doctrine. It was the early Christians being overly careful, because they did not want to dishonour their own baptism.

The doctrine was that there is only one baptism. This remains true today for pretty well all Christian denominations, and is included in the Nicene Creed. In my church (and many others) the whole congregation affirms (by reciting) this creed in every single service.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

English versions of the Nicene Creed in current use - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And how do I know if these hunted heretics weren't overly careful too? History is written by the victor, and at that time Constaine The Great was surely the victor.

 

[Mahammad]

I think if you swap the phrase 'working our way to God' for the single word 'work', you may see what is meant.

Man cannot work his way to God. God has to reach towards us.

If we attempt by any behaviour to work our way to God, we will fail, because it simply cannot be done. In that context avoiding illicit sex is a work; it is attempting to reach God by being good. This cannot be done, because the very best of our good is still far short of God's own goodness.

I never denied this statement.

 

[Catherineanne]

And how do I know if these hunted heretics weren't overly careful too? History is written by the victor, and at that time Constaine The Great was surely the victor.

God protects his truth, through his Holy Spirit. Admittedly a circular argument, but there you are; that is religion for you.

 

[Catherineanne]

I never denied this statement.

No, I realise that. I am simply saying, when we say something is 'work' or 'works' in the context of our faith, this is what we mean; 'works theology' is anything that suggests that we can make our own way to God, or be good enough for God by our own efforts; by our morality. We can't.