Christian elves - (not directly role-play related)

[onikirimaru777]

*nods*

 

[Megachihuahua]

Oni, what is the difference between a dragon and a wyrm?

 

[Fire Of Zion]

I TOTALLY agree with Eru on the previous page!!! AMEN my elven sis!!!

 

[onikirimaru777]

Oni, what is the difference between a dragon and a wyrm?

terminology. Never really looked into it. Ive always thought one of them is a "lesser" and a "greater" version of the other, not sure which. I used to think "wyrm" was a derogetory term for dragons, but the DnD books show that the term "wyrm" is taken on by the greatest dragons. I dunno. I just call myself a dragon, because thats what I identify myself as, not a wyrm.

 

[Fire Of Zion]

wyrm looks bad tho... it makes me think of worm...which is like a lower than dirt creature...err considered that anyway. But if its a "greater" version, i'll stick to being a lesser just to get a kewler name...lol

 

[onikirimaru777]

Thats what i was thinking as well. Dragon just sounds more illustrious then wyrm. *shrug*

 

[Fire Of Zion]

yeah... its like... suuuuure! a wyrm just doesn't sound...good LOL

 

[Kelly]

I give Darrions credit for lasting this long in this discussion. As a fantasy reader and 25 year player of D&D, I can honestly say that the stuff of fantasy is just that...fantasy.

I love you guys and girls for wanting to emulate something as noble as the elven race but I do worry a bit that you are being drawn to deeply into a desire to be something that you are not. I'm not worried that you are going to go into a Denny's and waste everyone with your longsword (like my mom claimed happens to D&D players ), but I don't want you to lose site of your God-given purpose on Earth and draw yourselves into imagining and believing you are a creature of myth. It occupies your mind with fantasy instead of occupying your thoughts with God and what he wishes for you to do on this planet before we die.

Playing around on the web, using your imagination, etc. is great, but PLEASE remember it's all pretend. Don't let satan turn you off from the world to such a degree that you prefer your imagination.

God bless you.

Kelly

 

[Erufailon]

Hi Kelly and thanks for your reply.

I admit I have nothing like your credentials in the realms of D&D. I have in fact never played D&D, never taken part in any LARP ... I suspect this may be the root of our difference of opinion. Fortunately that also places me well outside the bounds of dismissal on the basis of being too deeply into role play to distinguish fact from fiction.

I would like to present this scenario - what if living an elven identity is precisely what our God-given purpose is? That is my current understanding, and the reason why I feel this is important at all.

One concession which I'll make is that possibly "elven" is the wrong adjective in describing this lifestyle. It's a convenient term because, although no-one can precisely define it, many have a reasonable understanding of what it implies. Do you happen to have a better suggestion?

So to what extent is being an elf 'fantasy' ? Those Christians who take this title don't generally find their full identity in the writings of any one specific author. In a sense we're indebted to Tolkien for providing a vocabulary with which to express what we feel, and at the same time presenting it from a monotheistic, Christian world-view. But at the same time we're not claiming immortality, exceptional beauty, specific physical manifestataions (pointy ears ...) etc ...

In earlier times we would probably have been branded as "mystics". However, I'm willing to bet that if a young Christian presents themselves as a "mystic", they would be criticised even more harshly than those who use the "elven" term.

The whole point of my previous post is that the very fact that we exist, here on this earth, living this lifestyle, means that we are not creatures of Myth. At least not any more than man is a creature of Myth. However if you want to propose ideas regarding what it actually means to be "elven" then I'm all ears (not sure if the pun was intended!)

I can't entertain the idea that satan could work by encouraging development towards purity, truth, beauty, dedication, community, spirituality, etc. ... These are all things which lead towards growth as a Christian, and all ideals which the elven life fosters.

I do know that it is important to fill one's thoughts with God. That's precisely why I allow myself to indulge in big dreams, in trying to fulfill longing for something beyond common experience. By aspiring to live the elven life, the best life I have some clues how to live, I have a chance to let my daily work and life contribute towards making a better world - one which I believe is closer to God's plan.

Our imaginations are God's gift. If you had encountered me 10 years ago, I would have proudly told you that (as a scientist) I have no imagination and no need for one. One very wise teacher reasoned with me at the time (I didn't listen) that imagination is the only way in which scientific progress can be made. If we cannot imagine anything greater than what we have, we cannot strive towards it. I dismissed it at the time. But now I realise the truth in it. Imagination is given by God in order that we can conceive of something better, and then do everything in our power to strive towards it.

Again, I feel terrible for the rant. I hope that your own (God-given) ideas will interpret, correct and supplement what I have been trying to say, and I hope you feel led to share them.

- Erufailon.

P.S. As some noted the URL of the Yahoo group I gave initally was wrong. It should of course be:

http: // groups.yahoo.com / groups / christianelfcommunity /
(remove spaces ...)

I am not the founder / owner of this group, but I am excited about the potential of its members.

 

[onikirimaru777]

Erufailon, ive realized there is no point in trying to convince humans about the existence of the otherkin, they will frankly never believe us. We will always be outcasts. Sad, but true.

 

[Fire Of Zion]

see, when i say im like an "elf" im saying i have characteristics of one! really, the way i look, my style, my personality IS like an elf! so i think its fun to just pertend because i believe it makes me more interesting than just plain human Kitty((my nick)).

 

[Kelly]

Thanks Eru...

I think I need your definition of what being elven is. Do you feel it's all spiritual/mental, or is it represented physically (i.e. your blood, any change to appearance, your DNA, your lifespan).

If you mean that your elven nature comes from the set of values you have, then you are not elven, but rather following an elven way of life.

I can't entertain the idea that satan could work by encouraging development towards purity, truth, beauty, dedication, community, spirituality, etc. These are all things which lead towards growth as a Christian, and all ideals which the elven life fosters.

If these things, while good, take the focus off of Jesus, then yes, Satan can be involved. You attract more flies with sugar, yes?

I do know that it is important to fill one's thoughts with God. That's precisely why I allow myself to indulge in big dreams, in trying to fulfill longing for something beyond common experience. By aspiring to live the elven life, the best life I have some clues how to live, I have a chance to let my daily work and life contribute towards making a better world - one which I believe is closer to God's plan.

As long as Jesus is your saviour and the backbone behind what you do...that he does these things through you, I agree. Faith and Works.

Our imaginations are God's gift. If you had encountered me 10 years ago, I would have proudly told you that (as a scientist) I have no imagination and no need for one. One very wise teacher reasoned with me at the time (I didn't listen) that imagination is the only way in which scientific progress can be made. If we cannot imagine anything greater than what we have, we cannot strive towards it. I dismissed it at the time. But now I realise the truth in it. Imagination is given by God in order that we can conceive of something better, and then do everything in our power to strive towards it.

On that we are in complete agreement.

 

[Spicy McHaggis]

So how does one decide they're an elf?

 

[Morwen]

Yes, exactly.

 

[Erufailon]

So how does one decide they're an elf?

I don't think one does, and I don't think there's any need to. I think most elves I know would agree if I describe it as something which is discovered rather than decided. Many call this process an awakening. We're definately not out to convert people to "become" elves, there's no sense in that!

Someone who shares the values of the elves, but doesn't feel themselves to be an elf, might be accurately described as an elf-friend. I don't consider elf-friends to be in any way inferior to those who claim to be elves, it's just a different personal experience. In fact I think the line is very blurred, since it's the values and lifestyle which are important. Those who call themselves elves will probably feel that the identity is rooted somehow within themselves, whereas for the elf-friends it's a chosen path.

- Erufailon.

 

[Erufailon]

I think I need your definition of what being elven is. Do you feel it's all spiritual/mental, or is it represented physically (i.e. your blood, any change to appearance, your DNA, your lifespan).

The truth is that I don't have a complete definition. I would say it is primarily spiritual/mental, and that is what is really important anyway.

Physical appearance is a sensitive issue. Some who consider themselves to be elves have certain physical features, others don't. But I think most agree that it's not that significant or important. Some appear to age more slowly (but I haven't heard anyone claiming physical immortality!) I don't look exceptionally like a stereotypical elf, but not so different either. The physical aspect of the body isn't so totally seperated from the mental and spiritual. Our psychologial state affects the physical, and vice versa. It's hardly surprising that one who lives an elven lifestyle starts to look more elven over time. Although eating a natural (often vegetarian) diet obviously plays a role in that too. But anyway, how do we say what elves looked like? Tolkien had a certain idea which many feel is roughly right, but I don't think all elves were necessarily very skinny or tall. I think of Tolkien's elves being based on real elves, but certainly not being the definition - they are fiction.

Some elves claim that there are other members of their family who have similar identity, but it also seems to skip whole generations. Cynically of course it can be said that DNA controls so much of personality that these could be normal human traits which are roughly inherited as all others are. I can see similar personality traits in my 2 living grandparents (one on each side), which I think I feel much more strongly, but don't seem to affect my parents in the same way.

I tend to keep a fairly open mind on such issues, and don't have a problem with others having difference of opinion or expression. If someone's lifestyle is consistent with what they claim then that's the main thing.

My personal "way-out" thinking is that pure-blooded elves existed at some point in history. We don't know exactly who or what they were, if they were just a race of humans, a sort of human sub-species or something else. However they weren't very different physically, and apparently inter-bred with "normal" humans. (As horses & zebras can interbreed in certain circumstances, for example.) The Mythology might suggest that one place they lived was Scandinavia, and I have observed that Scandinavian people (Swedes and Norwegians at least) seem to more often have features which appear "elven" according to our stereotypes. I have been told that it's even more evident in Icelandic people. But anyway, my point is I think that the "elven" blood (whatever that mean) is now very diluted, but still around, and probably more so in some regions of the world than others. More important is that the cultural heritage is still remembered to some extent in our Mythologies, although it seems that the elves probably primarily kept themselves to themselves, so not that much is known. I think these pure elves either left this world as we know it, either by choice or by death. However some of their offspring remained. So I suppose I'm saying that if it's a bloodline thing I'm probably something like 1/100th elf! But anyway please don't take this paragraph as being 100% accurate account of the way things were, I'm not claiming that, it's just my personal thoughts which I'm quite prepared to be wrong on. (Note liberal use of the word "think", not "believe" or "know")

If you mean that your elven nature comes from the set of values you have, then you are not elven, but rather following an elven way of life.

I see your point, and there's a case for that line of thought. It of course takes us to the sort of word-play, which I'm painfully aware is responsible for most divisions in the church, so let's be careful here. I think the reason why I would chose to say "I am an elf" rather than "I live an elven lifestyle" is because these things are so deeply rooted in me. I lived mostly the same lifestyle before I knew anything about elves because of the things I believe in, the values I hold, and choices I made earlier in life. Therefore I'm not living the lifestyle because it's elven, I'm living the lifestyle because it's mine. Describing myself as an elf seems to make sense to me and communicates something of myself in a way that many can understand. But as I mentioned in my previous post, the dividing line may be thin (and not really that important) between an elf and an elf-friend. Compare the closeness, but subtle difference, in saying "I live a monastic lifestyle" or "I am a monk".

The elven paradigm is also useful to me because it quite neatly ties together all sorts of diverse aspects of my life, and provides a common explanation. In that sense it's much less confusing to think of these things as a coherent whole rather than all sorts of disjoint little oddities. So from that perspective it's a tool to better understanding myself, and the (often hidden) links between values, beliefs, morals, listestyle, etc.

If these things, while good, take the focus off of Jesus, then yes, Satan can be involved. You attract more flies with sugar, yes?

As long as Jesus is your saviour and the backbone behind what you do...that he does these things through you, I agree. Faith and Works.

Of course it''s important to stay alert, and to watch out for anything misleading. I'm very excited about what I believe God has prepared for Christian elves and elf-friends. That's why I've been trying to seek out others! We're so few, but I know there are more than are currently in contact with each other. The internet is a great tool for gathering together birds of a feather who otherwise would probably never meet.

What do I believe the elves have to offer to the Church and the world?
Several things really:

- A revival of worship of the Creator outside the confines of a physical building. The natural "church" for an elf is in the glades of the forest, the magnificent places of worship created by God himself. (Historical reference to this is made in the Swedenborgian tradition, I have been told) While a Christian obviously worships the Creator and not the creation, it's a logical progression to see how the works of art which God has filled our world with speak powerfully about the One who made them. Many people know this instinctively, but the Church so rarely confirms it that some end up seeking in other nature-based religions. Christians should be out there actively testifying to the hand of God in His creation! I'm hoping that as Christian elves we can be a leading force in creating suitable forms of worship and organising such services in the future.

- A radical understanding of living in community. Elves seem to have a natural desire for community. Some are speaking of living in intentional communities in the future. I anticipate that at some stage in the future I will live in such a community, along with others holding similar values. I expect in my case it will consist primarily of elf-friends rather than those who call themselves elves. But the point is the same, and we share common values and lifestyle. I see this almost as a renewal of what has been good in the monastic tradition. In our case the community will consist of families and individuals, both male and female, but still committed to daily prayer (common worship 2/3 times a day), common life & work, and being a witness to our faith in the world.

- A life of simplicity, of eschewing some of the trappings of our modern age. There's a lot to be said for being prepared to live in a counter-cultural way. So far I (and my wife) have been led to completely give up television and mobile phones (electronic leashes!), and to remain car-less. And our lives are richer as a result. Of course it's not all about just giving things up - there is luxury in simplicity too! Try giving up store-bought milk in favour of unprocessed milk bought straight from a local farm, that's a simple luxury I'm not anti-technology (I'm of course at the computer now), I just believe it has its uses and limitations, and it's not always beneficial to our spiritual, mental, physical (& financial) well-being.

- Unity. Elves generally don't seem to be very concerned about denominational differences - we are natural ecumenists. I firmly believe that if the Church is to have a credible message in our time we have to be united on the basis of the essentials of the Gospel we all believe. If we continue publically bickering about details and prejudices then we can expect the number of believers to continue to decline. No-one is saved by being right! Love God, and love your neighbour - Faith & works. It seems Tolkien perceived the elves' longing for unity. In Lothlorien, Haldir says "[size=-1]Indeed in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him.[/size]"

Wow, sorry about the length of this post. I just wanted to share some of the things that I'm excited about. I know there are those who are going to write me off as a complete nutcase.
[size=-1]
"I have spread my dreams under your feet;
tread gently, because you tread on my dreams."[/size][size=-2] (W B Yeats)[/size]

- Erufailon.

 

[Spicy McHaggis]

I don't know about this. The way I'm interpretting the criteria for becoming an elf makes about as much sense as me deciding I'm Samurai because I place Honor above all other values and I studied Karate. Which makes sense, I mean, Samurai are much cooler than regular people, so I'd rather be one of then. Which would explain why people chose to be Tolkien Elves as opposed to Santa Clause Elves, that's what they'd prefer to be, that's what they decide to be. When you give a man a calculator, he can make anything add up.

Do your parents believe they're elfs too? I would imagine that something as strong and important as elven ancestry probably doesn't skip a generation, and would most likely not go un-noticed.

 

[Erufailon]

Do your parents believe they're elfs too? I would imagine that something as strong and important as elven ancestry probably doesn't skip a generation, and would most likely not go un-noticed.

Not as far as I know. But then I've never mentioned it to anyone in the offline world either. Even my wife doesn't know, although obviously she's very aware of my elf-like characteristics and tendancies. I prefer not to say anything and let people figure it out for themselves if they're going to. A couple of times I think I have noticed someone realise, but (perhaps partly because of the social settings at those times) they have not asked me directly. It's not a very easy thing to ask someone "By the way, are you an elf?".

In my "theory" regarding elven ancestry, what I neglected to mention is that according to that guess of the way things were, a very small part of elven ancestry is probably very common. So for the most part it may never be detected, and the characteristics it causes are considered to be part of what is "normal" for humans. I think those of us who go further feel the calling of these things more strongly, to the extent that we can't shake off the feeling that we are elves. Genetics explains how traits can skip generations and the re-surface. Perhaps sometimes to do with the union of 2 bloodlines both carrying the genes.

Also, remember that the very use of the word "elf" belongs to a particular jargon, and may well not be universally understood. Sadly my parents "read only the wrong sorts of books", as C.S. Lewis would have said. (As indeed I did too when I was younger) So although I now understand things from my past in this context, I had no way of expressing them then, I just knew (and felt it in a painfully bad way) that I was somehow "different".

Also, please remember that I'm not saying I'm a "Tolkien elf". There are some fundamental differences about them which I don't think are present in my ancestry. (immortality, in particular) What I am saying is that Tolkien based his elves on the elves featuring in earlier Myths, and as with many human Myths there are some elements of truth in them, a reason why they were written to explain the world at that time. I do think he got some things spot-on, and that is why people find it easy to identify something which rings true in his accounts of the elves.

- Erufailon.

 

[Kelly]

I'm still having difficulty understanding this, but 'd like to hear from the gentleman who believes he is a dragon kin. I need to know more about your understanding of your understanding of this.

 

[Megachihuahua]

Look, it's Kelly!
Are there any chicken kin? Hmmm, fried chicken people...
I've been thinking, which is very rare for a chihuahuakin, that because King Arthur was an actual Celtic Warlord, and he fought the Elven Kings, that elves are real and anyone who claims to be an elf must hate Kin Arthur. (typo, or is it?)
My virtual lawyer, who is trying to decide between rat and snake kin, says to tell everyone not to be offended in any way because I'm just bored and waiting for someone to respond to my post. In addition, I have the IQ of the taco bell dog.