Christian Democrats?

[Speedwell]

And yet Biden stands against his Church on the most debated moral issue of our time, abortion.

Is Biden in favor of abortion? Does he no longer consider it a sin? Or is he just not in favor of making a Christian sin illegal for non-Christian citizens of a secular state? Let's see some evidence.

 

[hedrick]

And yet Biden stands against his Church on the most debated moral issue of our time, abortion.

The hierarchy hasn't been able to convinced much of its own membership. 38% think abortion should be legal in all or most circumstances Legality of Abortion, 2018-2019 Demographic Tables. This is not an issue you can use to say that someone isn't Catholic.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Is Biden in favor of abortion? Does he no longer consider it a sin? Or is he just not in favor of making a Christian sin illegal for non-Christian citizens of a secular state? Let's see some evidence.

BIDEN: My religion defines who I am. And I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life. And it has particularly informed my social doctrine. Catholic social doctrine talks about taking care of those who can't take care of themselves, people who need help. With regard to abortion, I accept my church's position that life begins at conception. That's the church's judgment. I accept it in my personal life. But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews and--I just refuse to impose that on others, unlike my friend here, the congressman. I do not believe that we have a right to tell other people that women can't control their body. It's a decision between them and their doctor, in my view. And the Supreme Court--I'm not going to interfere with that.

Source: 2012 Vice Presidential debate , Oct 11, 2012

It seems you are right. But it also seems inconsistent to me. Moral distress, he morally believes one thing but promotes the opposite.

 

[hedrick]

Is Biden in favor of abortion? Does he no longer consider it a sin? Or is he just not in favor of making a Christian sin illegal for non-Christian citizens of a secular state? Let's see some evidence.

Here's what he says:

"I'm prepared to accept for me, personally, doctrine of my church" about when life begins, Biden said, "but I'm not prepared to impose that on every other person." He reiterated his support for codifying Roe v. Wade into federal law, if elected.

Biden's Shift on Abortion Tests the Politics of His Faith

 

[April_Rose]

NOW do you see why Biden MUST go?? Since when is an unborn child the same as their mother's body,.. sure they're inside of the mother,.. but they have two bodies and he's basically saying that he's allowing women to commit murder.

 

[hedrick]

It seems you are right. But it also seems inconsistent to me. Moral distress, he morally believes one thing but promotes the opposite.

In some ways this is easier for a Catholic than a conservative Protestant. While many Catholics have regarded abortion as murder, the tradition is not uniform on that. Abortion was condemned to a large extent because it separated sex from reproduction. That has been a uniform principle for Catholic sexual ethics.

If you really think abortion is murder, I believe it would be hard to say that others should be free to live differently. But if you thinks it's wrong because it's an implication of traditional Catholic ethics, then you might well think US law ought not to force that on all citizens.

Conservative Protestants since the 1980s (remember that the Southern Baptists initially agreed with Rowe v Wade) have tended to view abortion as murder. That's harder to compromise.

 

[Speedwell]

BIDEN: My religion defines who I am. And I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life. And it has particularly informed my social doctrine. Catholic social doctrine talks about taking care of those who can't take care of themselves, people who need help. With regard to abortion, I accept my church's position that life begins at conception. That's the church's judgment. I accept it in my personal life. But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews and--I just refuse to impose that on others, unlike my friend here, the congressman. I do not believe that we have a right to tell other people that women can't control their body. It's a decision between them and their doctor, in my view. And the Supreme Court--I'm not going to interfere with that.

Source: 2012 Vice Presidential debate , Oct 11, 2012

It seems you are right. But it also seems inconsistent to me. Moral distress, he morally believes one thing but promotes the opposite.

The alternative would be to advocate for making Christian sins illegal for non-Christian citizens of a secular state. Why should we think that's a good idea?

 

[hedrick]

The alternative would be to advocate for making Christian sins illegal for non-Christian citizens of a secular state. Why should we think that's a good idea?

I think the distinction is a bit murky. Historically the US has made Christian sins illegal. That only stopped during the latter part of the 20th Cent. It's hard to argue that making the distinction is a basic American principle. Prostitution and drug use are still largely illegal.

Do Americans generally support all of this? I think so, though there are plenty of ongoing disagreements. I suspect it may have to do more with the fact that so many Americans practice these "immoralities," and either don't want to make their own behavior illegal, or don't want to see more people in prison. I'm guessing the drug laws will fall fairly soon, for the same reason.

 

[Allandavid]

BIDEN:
It seems you are right. But it also seems inconsistent to me. Moral distress, he morally believes one thing but promotes the opposite.

For each of us, our moral position is our own. Biden feels, for him, that abortion conflicts with his values. However, he also holds a separate value that informs him that others have the same right that he does to make that determination for themselves.

I see no conflict...

 

[Allandavid]

NOW do you see why Biden MUST go?? Since when is an unborn child the same as their mother's body,.. sure they're inside of the mother,.. but they have two bodies and he's basically saying that he's allowing women to commit murder.

Ok, let’s play the “two bodies” argument...

You have no right to demand of me that I must connect my blood supply with yours, even if it meant saving your life. I could agree to do so, if I wish, but my right to bodily autonomy trumps your needs.

The same is true for a pregnant women who does not wish to remain pregnant. Her body’s blood supply is being connected with that of ‘another’. Her right to bodily autonomy is the same as the previous example...

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

For each of us, our moral position is our own. Biden feels, for him, that abortion conflicts with his values. However, he also holds a separate value that informs him that others have the same right that he does to make that determination for themselves.

I see no conflict...

Like freedom of speech. I can support your right to say things I do not agree with nor like. I might even find the offensive and immoral.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

We can have different beliefs about many things but the law is the final word.

And yet there can be unjust laws that we oppose with peaceful resistance. So we can still oppose and try to abolish established law as long as we are ok with getting thrown in jail. We impose our beliefs all the time.

So I do not think he truly accepts that doctrine of his Church. Otherwise he would oppose abortion as murder.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

just saying. I'll still probably vote for him because abortion does not have the actionable proximity as so many other issues aberrating our democracy.

 

[coffee4u]

Please don't take this the wrong way,.. I really don't want to start a fight,.. but how is there such things as Christian Democrats and or Liberals? (This might sound stupid but not sure if that's the same thing. XD)

I honestly don't know how American Christians vote or belong to either side. Neither one holds to Christian principles. if I was American I would vote for some small Christian type party that can't possibly win, but held similar ideals to myself so I could at least sleep at night knowing my vote wasn't going to either a racist misogynist or an abortionist. :/ I think it's tough.

 

[Allandavid]

Like freedom of speech. I can support your right to say things I do not agree with nor like. I might even find the offensive and immoral.

There you go....and those things you find offensive or immoral, you will remove from your own behaviour...

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I honestly don't know how American Christians vote or belong to either side. Neither one holds to Christian principles. if I was American I would vote for some small Christian type party that can't possibly win, but held similar ideals to myself so I could at least sleep at night knowing my vote wasn't going to either a racist misogynist or an abortionist. :/ I think it's tough.

We don't even have that.

 

[Allandavid]

We can have different beliefs about many things but the law is the final word.

And yet there can be unjust laws that we oppose with peaceful resistance. So we can still oppose and try to abolish established law as long as we are ok with getting thrown in jail. We impose our beliefs all the time.

So I do not think he truly accepts that doctrine of his Church. Otherwise he would oppose abortion as murder.

Show me ONE person, from ANY religion, who completely adopts EVERY tenet of that religion’s doctrine...

 

[Allandavid]

I honestly don't know how American Christians vote or belong to either side. Neither one holds to Christian principles. if I was American I would vote for some small Christian type party that can't possibly win, but held similar ideals to myself so I could at least sleep at night knowing my vote wasn't going to either a racist misogynist or an abortionist. :/ I think it's tough.

Which “Christian principles”...??

There are as many different principles within Christian thought as there are different Christian sects...

That really comes across as ‘I want to vote for someone who holds exactly the same values as me...’

Ain’t gonna happen. Politics, at all levels, is about compromising. I’m going out on a limb, but I would assume that you probably vote conservative, ie the Australian Liberal Party..? Do you always agree with everything in their platform, or do you vote for them because they mostly reflect your views...?

 

[coffee4u]

Which “Christian principles”...??

There are as many different principles within Christian thought as there are different Christian sects...

Not sexually molesting women
Not treating people based on race
Not murdering babies

Those 3 would be at the top of my list!

Also, you mean denomination. A sect is a cult, something that falls outside of Christianity but may have a simialr apprence to it.

 

[April_Rose]

just saying. I'll still probably vote for him because abortion does not have the actionable proximity as so many other issues aberrating our democracy.

That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed. It would be the same thing as one of your family members pointing a gun at you and threatening to kill you just simply because they didn't want you around anymore. At least in my book. It's murder plain and simple.