Christian Democrats?

[Desk trauma]

The child inside the woman was created by God in His image and has a purpose just like everybody else in the world.

I see no reason to think that is true.

 

[hedrick]

The child inside the woman was created by God in His image and has a purpose just like everybody else in the world.

What does it mean to say that humans are the image of God?

 

[April_Rose]

Heartless? Do tell, when did you donate your spare kidney?

I would if somebody I knew that was close to me was in need of it.

I see no reason to think that is true.

Now you have to be careful. You have your right to your beliefs but you're on a thin line of going against the TOS when you start talking like that about our Lord. He loves you too you know and for that reason I am going to simply just turn the other cheek and pray for you.

 

[April_Rose]

What does it mean to say that humans are the image of God?

Not really sure actually,.. just going by what I've been told and I think that it says that in the Bible.

 

[Desk trauma]

I would if somebody I knew that was close to me was in need of it.

Someone needs it right now, possibly someone has already died who is you match, how is your knowing the person relevant? If women are murders for not offering their bodies up to support others why are you any less culpable for not offering yours up in a much less risky fashion?

Now

you have to be careful. You have your right to your beliefs but you're on a thin line of going against the TOS when you start talking like that about our Lord. He loves you too you know and for that reason I am going to simply just turn the other cheek and pray for you.

Nothing in the TOS requires that I feign belief in your deity.

 

[April_Rose]

Someone needs it right now, possibly someone has already died who is you match, how is your knowing the person relevant? If women are murders for not offering their bodies up to support others why are you any less culpable for not offering yours up in a much less risky fashion?




Nothing in the TOS requires that I feign belief in your deity.

First of all not offering a body organ to a stranger (for the record I'm an organ donor though) and not killing your child are two different things and second of all it was just a warning to not push it because the way it was said sounded a bit blasphemous to me.

 

[Desk trauma]

First of all not offering a body organ to a stranger (for the record I'm an organ donor though) and not killing your child are two different things

You contend that a woman should not have the finally say in what becomes of her body if others require it to keep living, why should you get to keep that spare kidney when doing so will just a surely result in the death of another?

second of all it was just a warning to not push it because the way it was said sounded a bit blasphemous to me.

I have been active here for quite some time and am well aware of what I can and cannot post, thank you.

 

[April_Rose]

Forget it, I am done arguing with you and let's all just move on.

 

[hedrick]

What does it mean to say that humans are the image of God?

The usual understanding is that we're in the image of God because we are capable of making responsible decisions, can feel love, etc.

In Gen 2, God considers various possible companions for Adam. He rejects the animals, and thus creates Eve. This seems to define humanity in terms of the ability to be companions.

This article on the image of God is interesting What Does “Image of God” Mean? - Articles. It maintains that in the ancient context of Genesis, being in God's image means being his agent, ruling on his behalf. In terms of Gen 2 that is the responsibility to tend the garden.

None of this applies to a fertilized egg. I'm concerned about implications other than abortion. One is end of life decisions. We are increasingly able to preserve bodies in some kind of life. Should we? Have you seen picture of rooms full of bodies sustained by tubes? Is this the image of God? What happens when we can sustain some kind of life indefinitely?

I understand that we have to be careful about drawing lines. We don't want disabled people treated as valueless, nor do we want to abandon unconscious people. But I think at both the beginning and ending, a functioning brain seems like something we should require in order to treat someone as having full human rights.

Unfortunately this is not a question on which the Bible really speaks. But I don't see any grounds for the assertion that the only possible Biblical position is that any group of cells with human DNA is a human being.

 

[April_Rose]

The usual understanding is that we're in the image of God because we are capable of making responsible decisions, can feel love, etc.

In Gen 2, God considers various possible companions for Adam. He rejects the animals, and thus creates Eve. This seems to define humanity in terms of the ability to be companions.

This article on the image of God is interesting What Does “Image of God” Mean? - Articles. It maintains that in the ancient context of Genesis, being in God's image means being his agent, ruling on his behalf. In terms of Gen 2 that is the responsibility to tend the garden.

None of this applies to a fertilized egg. I'm concerned about implications other than abortion. One is end of life decisions. We are increasingly able to preserve bodies in some kind of life. Should we? Have you seen picture of rooms full of bodies sustained by tubes? Is this the image of God? What happens when we can sustain some kind of life indefinitely?

I understand that we have to be careful about drawing lines. We don't want disabled people treated as valueless, nor do we want to abandon unconscious people. But I think at both the beginning and ending, a functioning brain seems like something we should require in order to treat someone as having full human rights.

Unfortunately this is not a question on which the Bible really speaks. But I don't see any grounds for the assertion that the only possible Biblical position is that any group of cells with human DNA is a human being.

That fits,.. but what are your opinions on the whole abortion thing then? (And yes I do believe it applies to the topic at hand because it's basically the views of Republicans versus Democrats.)

 

[Desk trauma]

.

 

[hedrick]

None of my previous postings talks about a soul. Frankly, the Bible isn't very explicit about that. In the OT, a person is a soul. It's not a separate component. Even in the NT you can make a good argument for that.

The traditional Christian position is "creationism," not in the sense of young earth creationism. Rather, God directly creates souls for people. So one concept of a person is the existence of a soul. Again, the Bible doesn't tell us when that happens. Traditional Catholic theology didn't normally say that this was at conception. There are some obvious reasons to doubt that it is. I mention above that at best half of fertilized cells become babies. So are there billions of human souls associated with entities that never developed beyond a few days? It's possible, but it would seem odd for heaven to be populated mostly by things that never had a chance to become a human being. Another obvious issue is that whether you've got one person or twins isn't determined for a few days. Much more likely is that God only assigns a soul when the brain is capable of supporting the kinds of things that a soul is normally associated with.

This is assuming traditional Christian concepts of the soul, about which I have to say I have some question, both on Biblical and biological grounds. But I don't think that discussion would be allowed here.

 

[Desk trauma]

That fits,.. but what are your opinions on the whole abortion thing then? (And yes I do believe it applies to the topic at hand because it's basically the views of Republicans versus Democrats.)

Abortion will remain legal in the US regardless of which party is in power. Are there any other issues you find important?

 

[April_Rose]

Abortion will remain legal in the US regardless of which party is in power. Are there any other issues you find important?

Yes, but there's too many to list.

 

[hedrick]

That fits,.. but what are your opinions on the whole abortion thing then? (And yes I do believe it applies to the topic at hand because it's basically the views of Republicans versus Democrats.)

I'm one of the few people that doesn't have strong opinions. I think it's disrepectful, that a potential human requires some level of respect. But I don't think it should be illegal. In part because it's a senseless law that is likely to cause more problems than it solves.

Before the idea that a person has full rights from conception, there could be reasonable compromises, like Rowe v Wade. But with the current radical anti-abortion opinions, we're starting to see any mother that doesn't live an ideal life guilty of murder. In countries that have taken this further, any miscarriage is suspicious.

As others have pointed out, if every conception results in a full human, you'd think we would be putting enormous efforts into research to prevent miscarriage. I mean, half the population is dying that way. Way worse than heart disease or anything else. The fact that it's not suggests to me that no one actually thinks a fertilized egg is morally equivalent to a baby. I'm not sure where the almost hysterical language of anti-abortion advocates comes from.

Yes, I'd like to minimize it. It's been decreasing. Most experts think we can keep it decreasing by comprehensive sex education, making contraception easlly available, and fixing our health care. There are surely other things we could do so that potential mothers don't consider it an unacceptable burden.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Since he gets to interpret the doctrine, I would suggest the Pope is something of an exception? So, of the others, name one...

I could name dozens right here in my own church that I personally know. In my opinions they are too rigid about it. Most bishops and Cardinals also thought I do not card to explore their positions to determine orthodoxy.

But certainly these days abortion and what some call "The Nonegotiables" are a minimum which Biden fails to publicly comply with.

 

[hedrick]

Biden is also not what you'd call pro-abortion. He is personally opposed, and has in the past opposed things like government funding. People younger than me seem not to realize just how much the politics have changed in the last few decades. This claim that abortion is always murder, and that the Bible says so (it doesn't), is recent among Protestants. As I've pointed out before, the S Baptist web site has a historical treatment of the issue, which says that the S Baptist convention generally welcomed Rowe v Wade. (That doesn't mean that all Protestants did, however.)

Historically, conservative Protestants were against it, but more like Catholics, as part of traditional sexual ethics that saw abortion as an attempt to make it easy to have sex outside of marriage, or more doctrinally, separating sex from procreation. The current rhetoric seems to date to the 1980's. There's some documentation suggesting that Falwell and others created this for political reasons.

In reaction to the inflated anti-abortion rhetoric, Democrats have concluded that allowing any restrictions at all is unsafe. Hence Biden has now moved away from a kind of middle of the road position to concentrating on keeping it legal.

We need to deescalate somehow. But if killing any fertilized egg is murder, it's hard to see how that's possible.

 

[Desk trauma]

Yes, but there's too many to list.

I have time.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Abortion will remain legal in the US regardless of which party is in power.

That is why I sort of invented the term "actionable proximity" unless there is a better term. It must be taken into account. The president can pardon, write execuIve orders and has major powerful influence on many issues that can change daily. While abortion is settled law. Why should abortion outweigh other issues when it way down on the list of doable, actionable issues?

 

[April_Rose]

Actually,.. I say that once the baby develops a heartbeat then it's murder. I do believe there's a current bill called the heartbeat law or something as well.