CHOP zone terror

[variant]

Yup.

And unfortunately, this can - and definitely will - be used as straw-man ammunition by people who are opposed to police reform.

"Oh, you're for police reform? So you're saying you want the whole country to look like CHOP, huh??!!??!??"

Which is.....no. Just no.

I'm not sure anyone really wants some random mob of people to take charge of governance.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I'm not sure anyone really wants some random mob of people to take charge of governance.

Of course they don't. But that's not going to stop anyone from using the straw-man.

 

[Radagast]

"Oh, you're for police reform? So you're saying you want the whole country to look like CHOP, huh??!!??!??"

We are grateful to CHOP for showing everybody what "defund the police" looks like in practice.

Pity that kids had to die for that lesson.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

My answer is a very easy no. It is not worth radicalizing more people over.



That's also an easy answer - there used to be way more people there. The original organizers - at least, as far as they can be identified, it's difficult to determine - left long ago, along with most other people, and it's gotten smaller and smaller since then. There were very few left by this morning, mostly directly in front of the precinct, and at a park nearby.

Okay. I guess even Trump can get things right once in a while.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

We are grateful to CHOP for showing everybody what "defund the police" looks like in practice.

Thanks for proving my point. You literally just used the exact straw-man I was talking about.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Okay. I guess even Trump can get things right once in a while.

Once in a blue moon. He pardoned Jack Johnson, after all.

I don't believe for one second he knew who Jack Johnson was, of course. Some aid probably presented it to him and said "here's a minimal effort thing you can do for a photo op and some good PR." EDIT, CORRECTION: I just looked into it. It wasn't an aid, it was Sylvester Stallone.

Still...he did it. And he did this right, too, by mostly doing nothing at all.

 

[Radagast]

Thanks for proving my point. You literally just used the exact straw-man I was talking about.

It's not a straw man.

 

[Ken-1122]

I suspect that's for two reasons,

1 - Their actions are the most sensational, and easiest to spot precisely because they tend to dress uniformly.

No. Their actions are the only ones I see attributed to Antifa.

2 - It appears you've consumed an awful lot of garbage propaganda from hack Youtube commentators like Sargon of Akkad, so you're on the lookout for them because you think there is a centralized organization called "Antifa" who engage exclusively in these kind of tactics.

What did I say that gave you the impression that I believe Antifa is a centralized organization?

You're on the internet. You could try looking, you know. They do a lot of hacktivism, exposing neo-Nazi police officers and politicians with ties to the KKK, and such.

How ‘bout if you provide a link of someone doing something positive under the name Antifa.

No, I can't. Because, once again, there is no organization called "Antifa". Therefor no one can, as a representative of a non-existent entity, organize a food bank. Or anything.

If people can riot under the banner “Antifa”, what’s stopping them from organizing a food bank?

Literally no one fighting for criminal justice reform believes that. You can't find me anyone who does, so I won't bother challenging you to look.

Seattle Police department has been under the Consent decree for the past couple years where they’ve had federal oversight of use of force policies, community policing, de-escalation and community oversights.

Seattle Police Guild: We're ready to move on from federal consent decree

Here's the good news about that, though:

While the criminal justice system adversely affects black people the worst over all, fighting to reform it - from law enforcement, to courts, to prisons - will benefit everyone if it is successful, regardless of skin pigmentation.

Here’s some more good news;

While the criminal justice system adversely affects men the worst of all, fighting to reform it - from law enforcement, to courts to prisons - will benefit everyone if it is successful regardless of gender.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

It's not a straw man.

Yes it is, as anyone can see for themselves with a few minutes worth of research. Thank you for continuing to make an example of yourself.

For anyone reading along who may be curious what "defund the police" actually means, and would like to move beyond vacuous bloviating, here are some articles,

What Exactly Does It Mean to Defund the Police?

What does ‘defund the police’ mean and does it have merit?.

This is what people mean when they say they want to defund the police

Also, here are the 2018 clearance rates for US police on crimes with a victim,

Clearances.

Spoiler alert: They suck at it. The good news is, defunding also means limiting the scope of responsibility for cops - giving issues of mental, drug addiction, and homelessness over to trained social workers, firing the army of donut-huffing losers who do nothing but sit in speed traps all day writing tickets, etc. - such that they can concentrate solely on crimes with a victim instead.

Hopefully, this has been helpful to someone.

 

[Radagast]

For anyone reading along who may be curious what "defund the police" actually means, and would like to move beyond vacuous bloviating, here are some articles,

In NYC, $1 billion was cut from the $6 billion police budget, and AOC explained that "defund the police" meant cutting much, much more than that.

And if you'd like an actual, non-straw-man model of what defunding looks like, you can look to my birthtown - Camden, NJ, which had been consistently ranked among the most dangerous places in the country, for many years.

Camden has come up in discussion before. You are utterly misrepresenting what happened there. They did not "defund the police."

In fact, Camden increased the number of police and instituted more aggressive policing procedures. "These are soldiers we have here now" said one resident, approvingly.

https://books.google.com/books?id=rbUaCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT158

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

No. Their actions are the only ones I see attributed to Antifa.

Yeah, for the reasons I just said.

What did I say that gave you the impression that I believe Antifa is a centralized organization?

Questions like this,

How ‘bout if you provide a link of someone doing something positive under the name Antifa.

It's not a name. It's not an organization. It's an adjective, and a noun, like environmentalist. It means anti-fascist. Nothing else. Anyone can use the label, as an individual or as a group - i.e. Houston Antifa. That includes black bloc activists, like the ones you are talking about, who have a typical dress code and often use violence. It also includes people who use hacktivism - google it if you're curious. It also includes myself, and my friends, who organize food banks and engage in other types of activism. I don't have "links" to those things, because we have never cared to document what we do for public consumption. I'm not sharing pictures with you from my private social media accounts.

The problem with this kind of thinking is that if Trump can label an abstract concept as a "terrorist organization", then he can label any kind of dissenting behavior or language as subversive. You don't want that, so stop helping him by perpetuating the myth. If your problem is with black bloc instigators, then call them out specifically.

I am quite tired of repeating myself. This is the last time I will be explaining this.

Seattle Police department has been under the Consent decree for the past couple years where they’ve had federal oversight of use of force policies, community policing, de-escalation and community oversights.

Seattle Police Guild: We're ready to move on from federal consent decree

Good.

Here’s some more good news;

While the criminal justice system adversely affects men the worst of all, fighting to reform it - from law enforcement, to courts to prisons - will benefit everyone if it is successful regardless of gender.

Not sure why you're pointing that out, but yes. That is true.

 

[Ken-1122]

It's not a name. It's not an organization. It's an adjective, and a noun, like environmentalist. It means anti-fascist. Nothing else.

And a White Nationalist is a white person who cares about his country; has nothing to do with racism right? Well unfortunately some white racists seems to have hijacked the term and now in America the term white nationalism is usually another term for racist. I think the same could be said for Antifa; it's original term may have been something else but some bad people hijacked the term.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

In NYC, $1 billion was cut from the $6 billion police budget, and AOC explained that "defund the police" meant cutting much, much more than that.

So? Finish that thought.

Camden has come up in discussion before. You are utterly misrepresenting what happened there. They did not "defund the police."

Yeah, my bad. That's not a good example. I'll edit my response. But it is an example of much needed police reform that will provide some insight moving forward. Community policing will have to be a big part of that.

You know what's a much worse example? CHOP. That's a straw-man.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

And a White Nationalist is a white person who cares about his country; has nothing to do with racism right? Well unfortunately some white racists seems to have hijacked the term and now in America the term white nationalism is usually another term for racist.

Wow. WOW. Did this just take an unexpected turn, or what?

No. You are wrong. And the casualness with which you just brought that up is frankly disturbing.

Sorry, but I'm drawing a line. I am not about to sit here and listen to you defend white nationalism. I went down that road, too, about 20 years ago, when I was younger and more confused. I went on that infamous webforum that's still around today. I won't say the name, but anyone who's ever engaged with neo-Nazis/white nationalists/white supremacists knows exactly the place I'm talking about. I flirted with the worldview briefly, thankfully got out quick, and have remained a lurker ever since to keep tabs on what they're saying amongst themselves.

You're flirting with that worldview, too, with language like this. You need to get out now, before you're drawn in.

 

[Ken-1122]

Wow. WOW. Did this just take an unexpected turn, or what?

No. You are wrong. And the casualness with which you just brought that up is frankly disturbing.

Sorry, but I'm drawing a line. I am not about to sit here and listen to you defend white nationalism.

Defending white nationalism? As I said; the original definition of a nationalist (as opposed to a globalist) is a person who seeks what's best for his country rather than the entire world; that's it. Nationalism has nothing to do with race especially when the culture of the nation in question is defined by multiple races, because to single out one race is to go against this nations culture.
Definition of nationalism | Dictionary.com
Are You a Globalist or a Nationalist? Take the Quiz!
If you're gonna stick with the original definition of Antifa, perhaps you should be consistent and stick with the original definition of nationalism as well.
But as I said before, what difference does all of this make? Whether it was Antifa, Black Blok, or whatever; my point was; it was they who started the riots; not the police. Why you kept making this conversation about the definition of Antifa is beyond me.

 

[Larniavc]

Then what was your point when you called the office of the president "pointless"?

My point was it does not need to have absolute power to not be a pointless office.

 

[Larniavc]

the sedition act

Yes. Its called the sedition act.

America is not in a state of war. So no Sedition Act.

 

[Larniavc]

And a White Nationalist is a white person who cares about his country; has nothing to do with racism right? Well unfortunately some white racists seems to have hijacked the term and now in America the term white nationalism is usually another term for racist.

No. It was not highjacked. It always meant racist.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

America is not in a state of war. So no Sedition Act.

Yes. America is still in a state of war.

 

[Desk trauma]

Yes. America is still in a state of war.

Oh? When did that go through Congress?