CHOP zone terror

[Oompa Loompa]

He has ultimate responsibility and held both houses for two years.

Unless you’re saying the office of the president is powerless.

First, although the office of the President is powerful, it isn't without limits.

Second, the president does have the power to end the situation. But he is allowing the state and local government to deal with it. What do you think he meant when Trump told them to fix it or he will?

 

[Larniavc]

The President has no authority over state and local governments.

Bit of a pointless office, then.

 

[Larniavc]

What do you think he meant when Trump told them to fix it or he will?

That he has no plan and hopes either someone else will do it of fail and then he gets to chastise them for failure.

He might as well not be there.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

That he has no plan and hopes either someone else will do it of fail and then he gets to chastise them for failure.

He might as well not be there.

As he has stated on multiple occasions, his plan is to send the military and federal law enforcement to have them expelled or arrested.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Bit of a pointless office, then.

It is not unusual for left leaning progressives to desire absolute power to the executive so long as the executive is imposing a progressive agenda. I guess an office is pointless if it doesn't have absolute power.

 

[Paulos23]

Seattle Police have started moving into CHOP. At least 13 arrests so far.

At least 13 arrested as Seattle police retake control of the East Precinct

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Seattle Police have started moving into CHOP. At least 13 arrests so far.

At least 13 arrested as Seattle police retake control of the East Precinct

They're all cleared out, and are in the process of cleaning up the tented area in front of the precinct. Latest I heard was ~20 arrests. No injuries.

 

[Paulos23]

They're all cleared out, and are in the process of cleaning up the tented area in front of the precinct. Latest I heard was ~20 arrests. No injuries.

Well, I am well outside of Seattle these days as is most of my friends. But that sounds about right.

The Mayor gave enough warning, and the original protesters are out of there already. That twenty is probably the few die-hards that thought they could keep this up forever. They might have if they pulled back to the park and stopped blocking the streets.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

How is that different than what I said?

Scores of unaffiliated and autonomous groups and individuals using the "antifa" descriptor - much in the same way people use "environmentalist" as a descriptor - is completely different a centralized organization called "Antifa". Which categorically does not exist.

I’m talking about the people who show up at protests in uniform, occasionally spray paint Antifa graffiti on walls and wreck things. Whatever you want to call them is beside the point

No, it absolutely is not beside the point.

Anti-fascists engage in all kinds of activism. They organize food banks and sit-ins, they use hacktivism to expose politicians and cops with ties to white supremacist groups, they fight voter suppression and corruption...and yes, some of them are violent militants and hooligans, which is true of nearly every political movement you can think of.

When you label one specific category of behavior - that of the hooligans - as capital-A "Antifa", you are painting everyone else with that same brush. You are giving people like Trump and his cult the ammunition to label everything from fighting voter suppression to organizing food banks to any kind of dissenting language as "subversive", so long as it's affiliated with people organizing themselves under the cause of anti-fascism. And if you think stuff like that doesn't happen, I invite you to study the history of civic unrest.

So, stop doing it. Please.

No I’m not saying it’s a waste of time, of course they should always try to improve! I’m just saying no matter how much they improve, there will always be some cop who messes up and the riots till continue when this happens.

That depends.

Looking to history, the IWW/labor movement of the late 1800s/early 1900s was a tremendous activist effort, which including many ferociously violent riots, all out battles between activists and cops/union busters, and multiple massacres of activists including the 1913 Christmas panic in Calumet, MI, that killed 73 children of mine workers.

But, change did eventually come, and now we have overtime pay, weekends, safety standards, child labor laws, etc. There is still a lot of injustice in that realm, and there are still protests all the time, and occasionally violent scuffles, acts of arson, and property destruction....but neither you nor I have ever seen a full blown riot for worker's rights in our lifetime. For that, we should both be thankful to the activists who gave their lives and forced the hand of the government and industrialist bosses.

So...IF we see immense changes in law enforcement, and much better accountability to the community for cops messing up as a result of it, and citizens feel like they're being heard, you can probably count on still seeing protests about it, but you are very unlikely to see riots. A riot is the language of the unheard, after all.

I would like to learn from history, and not have to go through this same dance over and over again. Unfortunately, as long as we hold to the worldview that the proper response to protests is to radicalize them further through violence, we will see the same cycle.

People are being shown a false message by the media and people are reacting to this false message. It kinda makes you wonder why such violence didn't result in the other Cities around Seattle that had protests. Do you really believe Seattle is the only city where police have been known to make mistakes? I don't think so.

Not even a little bit do I think that. I also realize that this isn't math. As in, violent response from police = immediate and radical response from protestors. You can count on there always being some kind of response, but you're gambling every time. I don't know about you, but I prefer not to gamble, when it comes to potential matters of life and death.

Though Seattle is a special place, in a way. It has a deeper tradition of civic unrest than many other cities.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Well, I am well outside of Seattle these days as is most of my friends. But that sounds about right.

The Mayor gave enough warning, and the original protesters are out of there already. That twenty is probably the few die-hards that thought they could keep this up forever. They might have if they pulled back to the park and stopped blocking the streets.

Yup.

And unfortunately, this can - and definitely will - be used as straw-man ammunition by people who are opposed to police reform.

"Oh, you're for police reform? So you're saying you want the whole country to look like CHOP, huh??!!??!??"

Which is.....no. Just no.

 

[Larniavc]

I guess an office is pointless if it doesn't have absolute power.

You'd guess wrong. Dichotomous thinking is not often a good idea.

 

[Larniavc]

As he has stated on multiple occasions, his plan is to send the military and federal law enforcement to have them expelled or arrested.

Yeah, right. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Deploying the Military on American soil?

smh

 

[Oompa Loompa]

You'd guess wrong. Dichotomous thinking is not often a good idea.

Then what was your point when you called the office of the president "pointless"?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Yeah, right. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Deploying the Military on American soil?

smh

Yes. Its called the sedition act.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Yes. Its called the sedition act.

Would you have deployed the military against CHOP, if you had the power?

 

[durangodawood]

People loooove some CHOP.

Gives them something to complain about and and excuse to avoid thinking about real nationally significant issues.

 

[Ken-1122]

Scores of unaffiliated and autonomous groups and individuals using the "antifa" descriptor - much in the same way people use "environmentalist" as a descriptor - is completely different a centralized organization called "Antifa". Which categorically does not exist.

Really? The only one’s I’ve seen referring to themselves as Antifa are the ones dressed in black who start riots. Perhaps if I see some peaceful people doing peaceful things, then I might consider referring to them differently. I believe even your Jesus said; A tree is known by the fruit it bears

No, it absolutely is not beside the point.

Anti-fascists engage in all kinds of activism. They organize food banks and sit-ins, they use hacktivism to expose politicians and cops with ties to white supremacist groups, they fight voter suppression and corruption...and yes, some of them are violent militants and hooligans, which is true of nearly every political movement you can think of.

Can you provide an instance when people claiming to be Antifa organized food banks?

That depends.

Looking to history, the IWW/labor movement of the late 1800s/early 1900s was a tremendous activist effort, which including many ferociously violent riots, all out battles between activists and cops/union busters, and multiple massacres of activists including the 1913 Christmas panic in Calumet, MI, that killed 73 children of mine workers.

But, change did eventually come, and now we have overtime pay, weekends, safety standards, child labor laws, etc. There is still a lot of injustice in that realm, and there are still protests all the time, and occasionally violent scuffles, acts of arson, and property destruction....but neither you nor I have ever seen a full blown riot for worker's rights in our lifetime. For that, we should both be thankful to the activists who gave their lives and forced the hand of the government and industrialist bosses.

You can’t compare what happened 100 years ago with today, back then, child labor, dangerous working conditions were real. Today people are being fed selective information by a dishonest media and people are reacting to what they see in the media. When a white person is abused by the cops, the media ignores it; when a black person is abused by the cops the media reports it. So all of these people are believing the only people being attacked by the cops are black people because that is the only thing the media is showing them and they are reacting to what they see.

So...IF we see immense changes in law enforcement, and much better accountability to the community for cops messing up as a result of it, and citizens feel like they're being heard, you can probably count on still seeing protests about it, but you are very unlikely to see riots. A riot is the language of the unheard, after all.

I would like to learn from history, and not have to go through this same dance over and over again. Unfortunately, as long as we hold to the worldview that the proper response to protests is to radicalize them further through violence, we will see the same cycle.

In my city there has been huge changes in law enforcement. But this didn’t stop somebody 3000 miles away from messing up and causing riots in my city because they believe this stuff happens only to black people every day; because they see stuff this stuff happening only to black people every day. And just for the record, I don't think those Antifa/Anarchist rioters care about police brutality, I think their entire agenda is to destroy the city, and they use the legitimate protesters as an excuse to cause carnage. IMO that was their entire agenda from the start

Not even a little bit do I think that. I also realize that this isn't math. As in, violent response from police = immediate and radical response from protestors.

No, more like violent response from Antifa and Anarchists; response from police

Though Seattle is a special place, in a way. It has a deeper tradition of civic unrest than many other cities.

Unfortunately true; which is why we’ve had as many killings in a 6 block area of Queen Ann (CHAZ) as we’ve had in the entire Queen Ann area over the past 3 years!

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Would you have deployed the military against CHOP, if you had the power?

It is hard for me to say. I first thought Trump made the right call to leave it to the local government. Only a couple people were killed because of the mayor's incompetence and i felt there was a risk of more being injured or killed with a heavy handed fist. But then I saw how quickly and easily the Seattle PD dealt with it and thought, "why the heck didn't they do this sooner?"

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Really?

Yes, really. Sorry to blow your mind, but reality is not obligated to kowtow to your imagination.

The only one’s I’ve seen referring to themselves as Antifa are the ones dressed in black who start riots.

I suspect that's for two reasons,

1 - Their actions are the most sensational, and easiest to spot precisely because they tend to dress uniformly.
2 - It appears you've consumed an awful lot of garbage propaganda from hack Youtube commentators like Sargon of Akkad, so you're on the lookout for them because you think there is a centralized organization called "Antifa" who engage exclusively in these kind of tactics.

Perhaps if I see some peaceful people doing peaceful things, then I might consider referring to them differently.

You're on the internet. You could try looking, you know. They do a lot of hacktivism, exposing neo-Nazi police officers and politicians with ties to the KKK, and such.

While you're at it, you could also look into the boogaloo movement. They are people who show up to peaceful protests posing as representatives of what you would call "Antifa", and intentionally try to stoke violence and mayhem in order to get the cops to turn on the crowd. It's a tactic that goes back at least as far as the union busting days of the early 20th century. And law enforcement know that it's happening. We know they know, because of BlueLeaks, which exposed internal memos about it.

I believe even your Jesus said; A tree is known by the fruit it bears

I'm an atheist, dude. Lifelong.

Can you provide an instance when people claiming to be Antifa organized food banks?

No, I can't. Because, once again, there is no organization called "Antifa". Therefor no one can, as a representative of a non-existent entity, organize a food bank. Or anything.

If you mean to ask, can I provide an instance of people who identify as antifa organizing a food bank, then yes. I have friends on both coasts, and in Chicago, who do that. I've donated canned goods myself.

You can’t compare what happened 100 years ago with today

I just did.

I'll say it again - there is nothing new about any of this. This is how the entire history of civil unrest has always worked.

You're nothing new, either.

If you had been around in 1960, you'd be saying "You can't compare the civil rights movement to the IWW strikes. They were fighting real problems back then! These activists are getting worked up over problems that aren't even serious, and they're being violent!".

If you had been around in 1910, you'd be saying "You can't compare the IWW strikes to the abolitionist movement. They were fighting real problems back then! These labor strikers are getting worked up over problems that aren't even serious, and they're being violent!".

If you had been around in 1850, you'd be saying "You can't compare the abolitionist movement to the revolution. They were fighting real problems back then! These abolitionists are getting worked up over problems that aren't even serious, and they're being violent!".

Now it's 2020. Which side of history would you like to be on?

So all of these people are believing the only people being attacked by the cops are black people
......................
In my city there has been huge changes in law enforcement. But this didn’t stop somebody 3000 miles away from messing up and causing riots in my city because they believe this stuff happens only to black people

Literally no one fighting for criminal justice reform believes that. You can't find me anyone who does, so I won't bother challenging you to look.

Here's the good news about that, though:

While the criminal justice system adversely affects black people the worst over all, fighting to reform it - from law enforcement, to courts, to prisons - will benefit everyone if it is successful, regardless of skin pigmentation.

So, you're welcome.

And just for the record, I don't think those Antifa/Anarchist rioters care about police brutality, I think their entire agenda is to destroy the city, and they use the legitimate protesters as an excuse to cause carnage.

Of that, I have no doubt. There are definitely cynical opportunists just looking to rile things up.

Thankfully, they are a minute fraction of the people who show up to protests, if they show up at all. Which they very often don't.

But of course, you wouldn't know about 7-10,000 people marching 5.5 miles through Boston without so much as a pebble thrown, on June 2nd. Or 5,000+ people assembling at Huston-Tillotson, not far from where I am currently typing this, to gather on the grass and chant and sing and network with each other. Or the scores of thousands more people who don't show up to protests at all, and instead fight from home through email writing campaigns, voter registration campaigns, creating databases of black-owned businesses to support, and so forth. Just to pick a few examples out of many.

You wouldn't, unless you actually cared enough to look for such things.

I hope you do.

No, more like violent response from Antifa

No, really. You can stop now. Hack Youtube commentators have an excuse - their income depends on perpetuating made up garbage like this. No one is paying you to say wrong things, so really, you can just stop any time you want to. It won't hurt, and no one will think any less of you for it.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

It is hard for me to say.

My answer is a very easy no. It is not worth radicalizing more people over.

I first thought Trump made the right call to leave it to the local government. Only a couple people were killed because of the mayor's incompetence and i felt there was a risk of more being injured or killed with a heavy handed fist. But then I saw how quickly and easily the Seattle PD dealt with it and thought, "why the heck didn't they do this sooner?"

That's also an easy answer - there used to be way more people there. The original organizers - at least, as far as they can be identified, it's difficult to determine - left long ago, along with most other people, and it's gotten smaller and smaller since then. There were very few left by this morning, mostly directly in front of the precinct, and at a park nearby.