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CHOP zone terror

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by Mantishand, Jun 29, 2020.

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  2. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    This is what happens when you try anarchy out. Anyone still think it's a good idea?
     
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  3. Paisios of Athos

    Paisios of Athos Sinner

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    I live in a city that sees 5-10 shot dead every single day, as many cities do. This isn't a CHOP issue; it's a people issue, a particularly American issue. I'm not saying CHOP is a good thing, and in fact I think the National Guard should have put an end to that garbage on day one, but using a shooting to condemn it when we have hundreds of shootings in this country every single day is silly.
     
  4. GoldenBoy89

    GoldenBoy89 We're Still Here

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    Huh. Then what’s every other city’s excuse for murders/shootings?
     
  5. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I can't speak for your city, but this is not business as usual in Seattle; this is a CHOP issue. If CHOP were not allowed to hold those city blocks hostage, if the police were allowed to do their jobs, these senseless shootings and killings would not have happened.
     
  6. Paisios of Athos

    Paisios of Athos Sinner

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    Wrong. Shootings in Seattle have been on the rise since well before any of this. Statistically, CHOP has been safer than the city as a whole.

    Seattle shootings rise 6% in 2019 over 2018, with the greatest increases in south and north, police say

    Shootings across the city increased 6% in 2019 compared to the previous year, with 235 reports of shots fired, 79 injury shootings and 18 fatal shootings, for a total of 332 shooting incidents, the data show. In 2018, the total was 313 shooting incidents, with 67 injury shootings, 13 fatalities and 233 shootings that resulted in property damage or where officers were able to collect evidence of a shooting such as shell casings.
     
  7. essentialsaltes

    essentialsaltes Stranger in a Strange Land

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    What? 6 blocks has been safer than the whole city? Amazing. But let's check the Crime Dashboard.

    Capitol Hill area had 2 homicides in all of 2019, 1 in 2018, none in 2017, 1 in 2016, 1 in 2015.

    CHOP has matched the highest annual total in less than a month.
     
  8. Mantishand

    Mantishand Active Member

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    We should fully condemn CHOP. They have brought anarchy and destroyed the area and businesses. There will be more murder, rape and robbing until they stop this lunacy. How could anyone support this?
     
  9. Eight Foot Manchild

    Eight Foot Manchild His Supreme Holy Correctfulness

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    A cursory glance at the history of civil unrest will tell you that CHOP is nothing new. It's the kind of thing that happens when you make people feel like they have no power. Such as, by pepper spraying, flashbanging, and bludgeoning them when they're doing nothing but standing in a row and shouting "hands up, don't shoot". That is as good as outright saying to them, "picket-lining and sloganeering will get you nowhere". So, they're trying something else.

    To pick one analog out of a great many from history, Dolours Price, according to her own words, began her activism as a bright-eyed hippy attending sit-ins and marches against the British in Belfast. She cites being brutally beaten by cops and loyalists, while demonstrating peacefully, as the catalyst that radicalized her. Some years later, she was part of a team that set off a car bomb in London, as a member of the Provisional Irish Republican Army.

    I'm not equating the two things, morally. I'm just using it as a point of illustration - if your actions let people know that peacefully demonstrating will not only do nothing to sway them, but they will be physically assaulted for doing so, then they are going to do something other than peacefully demonstrate. That should be painfully obvious.

    So, if you think the answer is to sweep into CHOP and violently remove them, I have some bad news for you - people don't magically disappear after you beat the [bless and do not curse] out of them. Neither do their friends, or any other sympathizers who happen to be following the story. They'll still be around, and you will have only succeeded in radicalizing them further. And you can't predict what they might resort to next.

    Alternatively, we could look at the bigger picture and address the problems that brought us here in the first place - police brutality, unaccountability, systemic racism, for profit prisons with state-mandated quotas, militarized reactions to protest, etc, and do something about that instead.

    I know that's not the American way. We prefer to act as if the answer to every problem is more force, more authority, more firepower, more punishment. But...maybe we could give alleviating problems a try, just for a change?
     
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  10. Mantishand

    Mantishand Active Member

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    Ya ok. So we just let them further destroy and destabilize Seattle why we fix “police brutality, unaccountability, systemic racism, for profit prisons with state-mandated quotas, militarized reactions to protest, etc”.

    That’s not happening until Jesus comes back.
     
  11. Aryeh Jay

    Aryeh Jay Veteran Supporter

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    I had no idea that they were destabilizing and destroying Seattle. I guess Seattle has shrunk quite a bit since I left there.
     
  12. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    Bad people.
     
  13. Eight Foot Manchild

    Eight Foot Manchild His Supreme Holy Correctfulness

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    I take it you'll be surprised to learn that Seattle is larger than 6 city blocks.

    Never, in other words.

    Ok. In that case, if you don't think problems have answers and are worth solving, you can prepare to see more things like CHOP in the future, except likely much worse. Over and over and over again. Until you die, still angry about it, having done nothing to stop it.

    I prefer to learn from history, but you go ahead and have fun with that.
     
  14. Radagast

    Radagast comes and goes Supporter

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    I thought that when you removed police, people would magically start living in harmony with each other.

    It's almost like that ain't true...
     
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  15. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    No, 2018 saw the lowest number of shootings in 4 years; it only began going back up last year
    Report: Seattle sees lowest number of shootings in 4 years | PNW Live

    Safer than the City as a whole? You have no idea what you are talking about.
    Okay; let’s do some math. The entirety of Seattle had 79 injury shootings and 18 fatal shootings last year; that includes the low income high crime areas like White Center. If you do the math that comes to 6.5 shootings per month and l.5 killings per month.

    CHAZ is only a 6 block area in Capital Hill (known more for its gay and lesbian culture rather than violent/high crime) and has had 4 injury shootings and 2 killings in the past 10 days. If you did the math that would come to 12 injury shootings and 4 killings per month.

    Subscribe | The Seattle Times.
     
  16. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    This is not the case with CHAZ, The police did use pepper spray and other non-lethal forms of weaponry, but only after Antifa and other anarchist type groups began destroying things at night. When things were peaceful during the day, the Police were not using pepper spray and flash bangs, it was only after the anarchists showed up at night and became violent did the police react to the violence. The pathetic Mayor of Seattle allowed CHAZ to happen when she didn’t have to.
    After their success in Seattle, Antifa tried to do it in Portland and a few other cities, but the Mayor in those cities actually had a backbone and allowed the Police to do their Job and the attempt was a complete failure. Seattle should have dealt with their problem the same way Portland and others did; by not even letting it happen in the first place.
     
  17. Eight Foot Manchild

    Eight Foot Manchild His Supreme Holy Correctfulness

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    Oh, lord how I wish it was as simple as that. I wish reality followed the logic of that common tagline - "Just be peaceful/obey the law, and you won't be pepper sprayed/assaulted/strangled/murdered/etc".

    It doesn't, though. That's a fantasy.

    In reality, May 30th, the first of the large scale George Floyd protests in Seattle (as far as I am aware) took place in Westlake. All the video and pictures I have from it are from personal accounts of friends of mine, so I can't share them here, but it's not difficult to find other ones online if you want to search. Here are some written accounts from friends and friends of friends who were there. In all the pictures and videos, it is clearly broad daylight when this happened. Not night. Note the times,

    Here's another,

    And another,

    And another,

    And another,

    ^^^ The person who wrote that one is a very close friend of mine. She's the one who drove the second shooting victim from last week to the hospital, and very likely saved his life. She still has bloodstains in the back of her van, and is currently being stalked and harassed with violent rape threats by the Proud Boys, aka "very fine people" according to our president.

    So...no. The police did not react to violence. They instigated violence, and they have only themselves to blame for the extreme distrust they've engendered in the protestors. They're not solely responsible for CHOP, that comes from problems bigger than them, but man they sure did help it along.

    I also don't doubt that there were also violent opportunists and looters among the peaceful protestors as well. That's kind of the nature of large crowds. But I do not hold rally organizers responsible for them. They can't control who shows up.

    ...Unlike police departments, who absolutely can control who they recruit, and what kind of training they get.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  18. Eight Foot Manchild

    Eight Foot Manchild His Supreme Holy Correctfulness

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    I'll say it again - the picture is much, much bigger than just CHOP.

    When I say "you can expect things like CHOP to keep happening", I do not merely mean you can expect people to literally do the exact same thing and occupy a few city blocks.

    I mean if you expressly communicate to people that traditional peaceful public protest - picket lines and marches and sloganeering - will result in nothing at all being changed at the very best, and getting violently assaulted at worst, they will not throw up their hands and say "oh well, guess we'll just go home and decide to be happy with the status quo." No. They will find other means of getting your attention. That can manifest in any number of ways.

    And if anyone thinks CHOP is the worst of those ways, they have zero understanding of history.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
  19. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    I guess we both have different accounts. Though I was not there, my friend was and he said none of the violence began till 4:00. (if you remember there was supposed to have been a 5:00 cerfew; had the violence began at 1:00 the cerfew would have been much earlier than that). He said when Antifa showed up, you could tell who they were and almost like clockwork they began smashing windows and tearing things up, and when some of the peaceful protesters tried to stop them they were attacked by the Antifa thugs. Only at that point did the violence begin with the Police. Once Antifa began breaking windows to store, some of the people who were peaceful up to that point began looting because they saw they could get away with it. But according to my source, none of it started till Antifa showed up.
     
  20. Ken-1122

    Ken-1122 Newbie

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    Last year there were 9 unarmed black men killed by the Police (19 white men) Though there are aprox 750,000 police officers in the US, and millions of police encounters. Though 1 is too many if it is you, the reality is 9 is not a very large number of unarmed black men getting killed by the police. The reality is as long as the police are human, there will always be those who mess up, and all it takes is 1 mess up to result in rioting and the fear that this happens all the time. Unfortunately these type of rioting will happen again, and again, and again because there will never be a time when all 750,000 police officers will remain perfect. However that doesn't mean they shouldn't try.
     
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