CHOP zone terror

[Lost4words]

No way would this be allowed in the UK.

Gun loving, gun toting idiots trying to split the USA are making America look weak and scared.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

I guess we both have different accounts. Though I was not there, my friend was and he said none of the violence began till 4:00.

I don't doubt that your friend didn't see any violence til then, but that's false. It's understandable, though. These protests are big. It's impossible for one person to know what's happening at all points.

(if you remember there was supposed to have been a 5:00 cerfew; had the violence began at 1:00 the cerfew would have been much earlier than that).

It did begin earlier than that. When cops started pepper spraying and flashbanging people. I don't doubt that the looting probably started around 4 or so, as that checks out with other accounts I've witnessed, but cops were assaulting people well before that.

He said when Antifa showed up

You can stop right there. "Antifa" means anti-fascist. That's all it means. I'm antifa. So are you, I presume. It's not an organization. It's a political position, as old as fascism itself, dating back to Italy, Germany, and Spain in the 1920s. You might as well tell me "he said when Environmentalist showed up...". It's nonsensical.

Now, there are organizationS - plural - that will label themselves with the descriptor, such as Antifa of Greater Boston. But that's all it is. A descriptor. It doesn't tell you anything at all about who they are, what tactics they use, what kind of activism they engage in, or their affiliation with other groups. And yes, some of them use violence, just like people of virtually every other affiliation you can think of. My friends at these protests - who are also antifa - were among those people trying to stop the looters and violent types.

I'm also curious to know how your friend knew they were part of a local antifa group. Did he actually know this to be true, or has the propaganda of hack Youtube commentators like Sargon of Akkad gotten such a hold on people, that anyone who shows up to a protest looking to instigate violence is automatically seen as belonging to an imaginary organization called "Antifa"? Funded by George Soros no doubt, as these theories go.

Don't fall for it, please. If Trump can label a decentralized, abstract concept as a "terrorist organization", he can label any dissenting voice as subversive and dangerous, and shut it down by force. You don't want that.

Last year there were 9 unarmed black men killed by the Police (19 white men) Though there are aprox 750,000 police officers in the US, and millions of police encounters. Though 1 is too many if it is you,

It hasn't happened to me, of course, but I was present when Oscar Grant was murdered by BART police.

Shooting of Oscar Grant - Wikipedia

I watched from no more than ten feet away as he was violently restrained, called a
"[antiquated term for female dog] [vulgar term for rear end] [n-word]", and shot in the back.

There's a movie about it called Fruitvale Station, directed by Ryan Coogler and starring Michael B. Jordan as Grant. I've never seen it.

I have no problem whatsoever admitting that I have deep personal feelings associated with this subject. I just also happen to think I'm right.

the reality is 9 is not a very large number of unarmed black men getting killed by the police. The reality is as long as the police are human, there will always be those who mess up, and all it takes is 1 mess up to result in rioting and the fear that this happens all the time. Unfortunately these type of rioting will happen again, and again, and again because there will never be a time when all 750,000 police officers will remain perfect. However that doesn't mean they shouldn't try.

Any number is unacceptable, but these protests are about much more than just the number of unarmed civilians being killed. I think you know that. And I'm glad you agree that we should try to do something about it, I just hope you understand that means big changes. Not merely in how police work is done, but in reassessing the entire worldview that our criminal justice system is predicated on. Until that happens, you can absolutely bet on this continuing. And the further you radicalize people, the less you're allowed to act surprised when they do something...well, radical.

 

[Radagast]

Any number is unacceptable

In the 6-block CHOP, they are killing unarmed civilians at a rate of 3 per month.

That rate, at a national level, would be about 1.4 million per year -- about 50,000 times higher than what the police do.

That makes the police look pretty good, actually.

 

[Radagast]

Until that happens, you can absolutely bet on this continuing. And the further you radicalize people, the less you're allowed to act surprised when they do something...well, radical.

Personally, I think that terrorist threats should be met with force.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

In the 6-block CHOP, they are killing unarmed civilians at a rate of 3 per month.

Who's "they"? Be specific.

Personally, I think that terrorist threats should be met with force.

Me too.

Much more importantly, I also think we should do something to address the problem of how people become radicalized in the first place, such that we don't have to do that.

Do you?

 

[Radagast]

Who's "they"? Be specific.

CHOP Security.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

CHOP Security.

CHOP security has killed exactly one - armed - person. This morning, in an exchange of fire following what looks like attempted vehicular homicide. Another person was killed June 20th, for which no suspect or motive has been identified. The third shooting death doesn't exist, because your number is wrong. It's two, not three.

Care to take another crack at that? Who's "they", and how does it relate to...whatever point you're trying to get across?

 

[Radagast]

The third shooting death doesn't exist, because your number is wrong. It's two, not three.

As a rate, it's three per month, because CHOP has only existed for 2/3 of a month.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

As a rate, it's three per month, because CHOP has only existed for 2/3 of a month.

Ah. So you're extrapolating.

You're still factually wrong. One person - who was armed - has been killed by CHOP security. Zero unarmed people have been killed by them.

So, one more time - who is "they", and how does it relate to your point about police shooting unarmed people? Be specific.

 

[Radagast]

Ah. So you're extrapolating.

Yes, to the entire nation.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Yes, to the entire nation.

You keep ignoring your own factual inaccuracy, and my follow-up questions, so I think you're being deliberately obtuse. This exchange is over. Thanks for making an example of yourself.

 

[KCfromNC]

CHOP security has killed exactly one - armed - person.

This will be an interesting dilemma for certain narratives, given how important it seems to be to note whether or not minorities are armed when they are killed by police.

 

[Larniavc]

That’s not happening until Jesus comes back.

Throwing up your hands like this is exactly why religion should be excluded from politics.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

This will be an interesting dilemma for certain narratives, given how important it seems to be to note whether or not minorities are armed when they are killed by police.

That's true. But the older I get, the less interested I find myself in those mini-narratives and..."side quests", to borrow a term from a certain video game my wife is playing lately. I am instead concerned more and more about much bigger narratives, relating to history, the human condition, and the entire way in which we think about and deal with the problems we encounter.

There is an absolutely insidious worldview at play - informed by religion, and Christianity in particular, but by no means limited to religious people - that is deeply ingrained in our society. I don't know the word for it, but it informs everything from how we raise our children, to our foreign policy, to how we think about healthcare, to our reaction to global pandemics, to how our criminal justice system works. It's the worldview that states - indirectly, but clearly - that unless an answer to a problem is perfect, working 100% of the time, it's worthless. That the answer to human problems, such as crime, is not to alleviate the issues that we know exacerbate them, but to just wait around until they happen and then bludgeon them with force and/or firepower.

You've seen it expressed in explicitly Christian terms in this very thread: "[criminal justice system reform] is not happening until Jesus comes back." In other words, it's not our job as humans to enact changes that will address the root causes of a problem. Our only job is to punish people for the problem.

Meanwhile, the problem just grows and grows, because you're only trimming the stems instead of cutting out the root.

We have a reckoning on our hands, as a society. It's far past time to take a good hard look at ourselves, and ask if we would rather actually alleviate the big picture problems that we face at their root cause - imperfectly, but still effectively - or just continue clumsily hacking at individual instances of the problem with a machete, over and over and over and over again while the problem gets worse and worse and worse and worse, until we die angry about it. I know what my answer is, and I hope I can win a few minds.

That's not to say you shouldn't also address individual instances. But if you care about having fewer of those instances, there are objective means of bringing that about. I am being deliberately vague, because this applies universally. To relate it back to the thread topic, I'll say it once more,

If you expressly communicate to people that peaceful protest is a waste of their time at best, and will get them assaulted at worst, they will not just go away. They will do something else to get your attention. It could be some other peaceful means, or it could be something violent, and if you think CHOP is the worst of the latter, you are categorically clueless. None of this is new. This is the entire history of civil unrest.

So, what are you going to do about it?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

One man is dead and another wounded after Seattle CHOP zone shooting | Daily Mail Online

I think the CHOP/CHAZ is a tangible illustration of what the Democratic Party (if we can even call it that anymore) has done and is doing to the country. It shows how damaging their policies are it they are not put in check.

 

[essentialsaltes]

CHOP security has killed exactly one - armed - person.

Is there evidence the 16 year old was armed? Or his companion?

(it's hard to separate the chaff from the wheat, but I gather that people are pointing to an incident from 90 minutes earlier involving 'the same' car.)

 

[essentialsaltes]

I think the CHOP/CHAZ is a tangible illustration of what the Democratic Party

The people inhabiting CHOP seem to be more anarchists than from any particular political party.

 

[Mantishand]

Throwing up your hands like this is exactly why religion should be excluded from politics.

It’s true though. These people will never be happy until they find Jesus or until he returns. You could meet every demand they want and they will still be angry and unhappy because they are not at peace with themselves. Sinful lifestyle leads to unhappiness.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Is there evidence the 16 year old was armed? Or his companion?

(it's hard to separate the chaff from the wheat, but I gather that people are pointing to an incident from 90 minutes earlier involving 'the same' car.)

Only eyewitness testimonies at this point, indicating an exchange of fire, and one statement from the cops that had very limited information.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

It’s true though. These people will never be happy until they find Jesus or until he returns. You could meet every demand they want and they will still be angry and unhappy because they are not at peace with themselves. Sinful lifestyle leads to unhappiness.

Thank you for making an example of yourself, proving the point I made earlier. You don't care about alleviating problems. You only care about punishing them when they happen.