CHOP zone terror

[Mantishand]

One man is dead and another wounded after Seattle CHOP zone shooting | Daily Mail Online

 

[98cwitr]

This is what happens when you try anarchy out. Anyone still think it's a good idea?

 

[Frugality]

This is what happens when you try anarchy out. Anyone still think it's a good idea?

I live in a city that sees 5-10 shot dead every single day, as many cities do. This isn't a CHOP issue; it's a people issue, a particularly American issue. I'm not saying CHOP is a good thing, and in fact I think the National Guard should have put an end to that garbage on day one, but using a shooting to condemn it when we have hundreds of shootings in this country every single day is silly.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

This is what happens when you try anarchy out. Anyone still think it's a good idea?

Huh. Then what’s every other city’s excuse for murders/shootings?

 

[Ken-1122]

I live in a city that sees 5-10 shot dead every single day, as many cities do. This isn't a CHOP issue; it's a people issue, a particularly American issue. I'm not saying CHOP is a good thing, and in fact I think the National Guard should have put an end to that garbage on day one, but using a shooting to condemn it when we have hundreds of shootings in this country every single day is silly.

I can't speak for your city, but this is not business as usual in Seattle; this is a CHOP issue. If CHOP were not allowed to hold those city blocks hostage, if the police were allowed to do their jobs, these senseless shootings and killings would not have happened.

 

[Frugality]

I can't speak for your city, but this is not business as usual in Seattle; this is a CHOP issue. If CHOP were not allowed to hold those city blocks hostage, if the police were allowed to do their jobs, these senseless shootings and killings would not have happened.

Wrong. Shootings in Seattle have been on the rise since well before any of this. Statistically, CHOP has been safer than the city as a whole.

Seattle shootings rise 6% in 2019 over 2018, with the greatest increases in south and north, police say

Shootings across the city increased 6% in 2019 compared to the previous year, with 235 reports of shots fired, 79 injury shootings and 18 fatal shootings, for a total of 332 shooting incidents, the data show. In 2018, the total was 313 shooting incidents, with 67 injury shootings, 13 fatalities and 233 shootings that resulted in property damage or where officers were able to collect evidence of a shooting such as shell casings.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Wrong. Shootings in Seattle have been on the rise since well before any of this. Statistically, CHOP has been safer than the city as a whole.

What? 6 blocks has been safer than the whole city? Amazing. But let's check the Crime Dashboard.

Capitol Hill area had 2 homicides in all of 2019, 1 in 2018, none in 2017, 1 in 2016, 1 in 2015.

CHOP has matched the highest annual total in less than a month.

 

[Mantishand]

We should fully condemn CHOP. They have brought anarchy and destroyed the area and businesses. There will be more murder, rape and robbing until they stop this lunacy. How could anyone support this?

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

A cursory glance at the history of civil unrest will tell you that CHOP is nothing new. It's the kind of thing that happens when you make people feel like they have no power. Such as, by pepper spraying, flashbanging, and bludgeoning them when they're doing nothing but standing in a row and shouting "hands up, don't shoot". That is as good as outright saying to them, "picket-lining and sloganeering will get you nowhere". So, they're trying something else.

To pick one analog out of a great many from history, Dolours Price, according to her own words, began her activism as a bright-eyed hippy attending sit-ins and marches against the British in Belfast. She cites being brutally beaten by cops and loyalists, while demonstrating peacefully, as the catalyst that radicalized her. Some years later, she was part of a team that set off a car bomb in London, as a member of the Provisional Irish Republican Army.

I'm not equating the two things, morally. I'm just using it as a point of illustration - if your actions let people know that peacefully demonstrating will not only do nothing to sway them, but they will be physically assaulted for doing so, then they are going to do something other than peacefully demonstrate. That should be painfully obvious.

So, if you think the answer is to sweep into CHOP and violently remove them, I have some bad news for you - people don't magically disappear after you beat the [bless and do not curse] out of them. Neither do their friends, or any other sympathizers who happen to be following the story. They'll still be around, and you will have only succeeded in radicalizing them further. And you can't predict what they might resort to next.

Alternatively, we could look at the bigger picture and address the problems that brought us here in the first place - police brutality, unaccountability, systemic racism, for profit prisons with state-mandated quotas, militarized reactions to protest, etc, and do something about that instead.

I know that's not the American way. We prefer to act as if the answer to every problem is more force, more authority, more firepower, more punishment. But...maybe we could give alleviating problems a try, just for a change?

 

[Mantishand]

Ya ok. So we just let them further destroy and destabilize Seattle why we fix “police brutality, unaccountability, systemic racism, for profit prisons with state-mandated quotas, militarized reactions to protest, etc”.

That’s not happening until Jesus comes back.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Ya ok. So we just let them further destroy and destabilize Seattle why we fix “police brutality, unaccountability, systemic racism, for profit prisons with state-mandated quotas, militarized reactions to protest, etc”.

That’s not happening until Jesus comes back.

I had no idea that they were destabilizing and destroying Seattle. I guess Seattle has shrunk quite a bit since I left there.

 

[98cwitr]

Huh. Then what’s every other city’s excuse for murders/shootings?

Bad people.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Ya ok. So we just let them further destroy and destabilize Seattle

I take it you'll be surprised to learn that Seattle is larger than 6 city blocks.

That’s not happening until Jesus comes back.

Never, in other words.

Ok. In that case, if you don't think problems have answers and are worth solving, you can prepare to see more things like CHOP in the future, except likely much worse. Over and over and over again. Until you die, still angry about it, having done nothing to stop it.

I prefer to learn from history, but you go ahead and have fun with that.

 

[Radagast]

This is what happens when you try anarchy out. Anyone still think it's a good idea?

I thought that when you removed police, people would magically start living in harmony with each other.

It's almost like that ain't true...

 

[Ken-1122]

Wrong. Shootings in Seattle have been on the rise since well before any of this.

No, 2018 saw the lowest number of shootings in 4 years; it only began going back up last year
Report: Seattle sees lowest number of shootings in 4 years | PNW Live

Statistically, CHOP has been safer than the city as a whole.

Safer than the City as a whole? You have no idea what you are talking about.

Seattle shootings rise 6% in 2019 over 2018, with the greatest increases in south and north, police say

Shootings across the city increased 6% in 2019 compared to the previous year, with 235 reports of shots fired, 79 injury shootings and 18 fatal shootings, for a total of 332 shooting incidents, the data show. In 2018, the total was 313 shooting incidents, with 67 injury shootings, 13 fatalities and 233 shootings that resulted in property damage or where officers were able to collect evidence of a shooting such as shell casings.

Okay; let’s do some math. The entirety of Seattle had 79 injury shootings and 18 fatal shootings last year; that includes the low income high crime areas like White Center. If you do the math that comes to 6.5 shootings per month and l.5 killings per month.

CHAZ is only a 6 block area in Capital Hill (known more for its gay and lesbian culture rather than violent/high crime) and has had 4 injury shootings and 2 killings in the past 10 days. If you did the math that would come to 12 injury shootings and 4 killings per month.

Subscribe | The Seattle Times.

 

[Ken-1122]

A cursory glance at the history of civil unrest will tell you that CHOP is nothing new. It's the kind of thing that happens when you make people feel like they have no power. Such as, by pepper spraying, flashbanging, and bludgeoning them when they're doing nothing but standing in a row and shouting "hands up, don't shoot". That is as good as outright saying to them, "picket-lining and sloganeering will get you nowhere". So, they're trying something else.

This is not the case with CHAZ, The police did use pepper spray and other non-lethal forms of weaponry, but only after Antifa and other anarchist type groups began destroying things at night. When things were peaceful during the day, the Police were not using pepper spray and flash bangs, it was only after the anarchists showed up at night and became violent did the police react to the violence. The pathetic Mayor of Seattle allowed CHAZ to happen when she didn’t have to.

So, if you think the answer is to sweep into CHOP and violently remove them, I have some bad news for you - people don't magically disappear after you beat the [bless and do not curse] out of them. Neither do their friends, or any other sympathizers who happen to be following the story. They'll still be around, and you will have only succeeded in radicalizing them further. And you can't predict what they might resort to next.

After their success in Seattle, Antifa tried to do it in Portland and a few other cities, but the Mayor in those cities actually had a backbone and allowed the Police to do their Job and the attempt was a complete failure. Seattle should have dealt with their problem the same way Portland and others did; by not even letting it happen in the first place.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

When things were peaceful during the day, the Police were not using pepper spray and flash bangs, it was only after the anarchists showed up at night and became violent did the police react to the violence.

Oh, lord how I wish it was as simple as that. I wish reality followed the logic of that common tagline - "Just be peaceful/obey the law, and you won't be pepper sprayed/assaulted/strangled/murdered/etc".

It doesn't, though. That's a fantasy.

In reality, May 30th, the first of the large scale George Floyd protests in Seattle (as far as I am aware) took place in Westlake. All the video and pictures I have from it are from personal accounts of friends of mine, so I can't share them here, but it's not difficult to find other ones online if you want to search. Here are some written accounts from friends and friends of friends who were there. In all the pictures and videos, it is clearly broad daylight when this happened. Not night. Note the times,

I was shoes on the ground in Seattle at roughly 1:45pm today. We WERE being peaceful. At around 2:20 in Westlake Union, after just standing there with our hands up, we were met with flash bangs the people up at the very front were tear gassed and maced. For STANDING THERE. We didn’t even get to march before people got maced and flash bangs were used to try to keep us from gathering to protest.

We marched and the police were blocking us off at the Seattle Municipal Court. We couldn’t continue moving. This is when the excessive use of flash bangs and tear gas started up again in an attempt to disperse us. We WERE being peaceful. The police started rolling tear gas and flash bombing us all down the hill and down the streets while people were TRYING to disperse and didn’t stop. Our phones gave out an emergency notice that a curfew had been set for 5pm, this was at ~4:45/4:50. That was not enough time given the environment! (Flash bangs, tear gas, the amount of people etc.) This is when the police started boxing the area. Not to mention, they shut down transportation so how did they want people (myself included) to get out in 10 minutes??

Here's another,

home safe. Got [rocked] by multiple flash bangs and sprayed.

I will never forget when someone from the back launched a water bottle at the cops, and several people started yelling STOP THROWING THINGS.

We were on our knees with our hands up.

And then the police threw more flash bangs at us.

And another,

[accompanying picture of a line of cops in riot gear] This is what the police looked like from where I was standing peacefully at the protest in Seattle today. As protesters we were standing peacefully while they geared up in gas masks. The news will not show you this. Shortly after this they sprayed us with pepper spray without warning. We were simply standing. It's time to speak out. Its past time. I'm very grateful I was able to be there standing in solidarity for People of Color.

And another,

Now that I’m home, and I’ve showered and eaten, I want to respond to what I saw today at the protest for George Floyd.

We started out along the route from Westlake, with many many many of us. Chanting, walking in solidarity. Adults, children, people in walkers, teenagers…all ages walking together in a call to action. It was peaceful. We walked through the streets, blocked the highway, and wound our way in front of the courthouse. Literally the only “illegal” thing I saw was some graffiti, exclusively on city property like the high way walls which already had graffiti on it.

When we got in front of the court house, we all stopped to protest. There was a police barricade along the wall with multiple officers on the other side in full riot gear. We stood there for about 10 minutes. Literally, that was it. There were chants for Georg Floyd, Breanna Taylor, and, yes, there were anti-police chants. But nothing at all like a threat.

After the 10 minutes, the cops started talking on their walkies and started putting on gas masks. That is when I started sharing the video, because once they started doing that there was a palpable change in the crowd. We started putting our OWN protections on. But the chants still stayed the same. No justice, no peace. Remember his name. Exactly as it had been. One person did throw an opened water bottle across the crowd, but it was not thrown AT anyone, and it was a water bottle…I’ve seen worse things thrown at Christian Rock concerts.

There was no attempt at communication by Seattle police. No one said to move back. No one said to disperse. They wouldn’t have been able to anyway, since they had gas masks on.

Then a small group of people went to carry the march up the hill a little ways further. I don’t know where they were going. But they weren’t doing anything besides walking and chanting, just as before. And then the cops threw a flash bang at their feet sending them running back. And then the cops threw them into the crowd that I was a part of.

Things went into chaos then. When I say that they threw them INTO the crowd, I mean that I was easily 20 feet from the barricade with people in between, and one landed literally two feet from me. Obviously the crowd panicked and ran back. And then, and only then, did the crowd start throwing things at the building. And even then, it was water bottles and masks and maybe the occasional small rock (which, in full riot gear, you wouldn’t even be able to feel).

People were panicking and I fell back to pull out towels and water to help people. There was an overhang across the street which I went into to pull myself back a little bit to find space to put my backpack on the ground. People started pushing back. And the cops threw a canister of tear gas UNDER the overhang. There were people there just trying to move AWAY from the police who then were attacked. There was someone crying because they got so much in their eyes they couldn’t see to escape. There were people pouring water into their eyes to help who also weren’t wearing goggles and their eyes had to hurt just as badly.

We pulled down the hill a ways, just to help those who were worst impacted. Pouring water in people’s eyes. I had saline solution from my first aid kit which I was using, but we were doing whatever we could. We were at the bottom of Seneca, easily two hundred feet from the court house, down the hill. But the cops kept throwing flash bangs. And then people started shouting that they were using rubber bullets, and people started running away fast. That’s when I decided I couldn’t do anything else.

But included in that panicking crowd? At least two people who were in walkers and unable to move quickly. So I followed behind them to make sure that if something did get shot that way they wouldn’t get hit. And in that agonizingly slow walk, I was petrified that I was going to get shot in the back while actively leaving.

And that’s the problem. Because this is the first time I’ve been flash banged. The first time I’ve felt what tear gas feels like. The first time I was worried that I was going to get shot in the back without provocation. But for the black people in the US, that is their daily fear. That is a consistent problem with the police. There is no repercussion. There is no safety. And that’s what we were protesting. Peacefully.

To the Seattle police, and police around the world. You say you protect people, but there was never an attempt to deescalate. Hell, a child learns how to deescalate issues in kindergarten, and if they were to lash out at another child they would be punished. Why, then, is it okay for you to resort to violence without an attempt to deescalate? Were you looking for people to disperse, or were you looking to hurt us? Because my lungs still hurt from breathing in the tear gas, and I am 100% a pacifist. I never did anything besides stand up for the rights of my friends, and everyone in the black community. It was YOU that escalated. It was YOU that let fear dictate your actions. It was YOU that attacked the people you claim you protect.

And another,

I was there. Our hands were up. We were standing in front of them, screaming HANDS UP DONT SHOOT
They shot us.

^^^ The person who wrote that one is a very close friend of mine. She's the one who drove the second shooting victim from last week to the hospital, and very likely saved his life. She still has bloodstains in the back of her van, and is currently being stalked and harassed with violent rape threats by the Proud Boys, aka "very fine people" according to our president.

So...no. The police did not react to violence. They instigated violence, and they have only themselves to blame for the extreme distrust they've engendered in the protestors. They're not solely responsible for CHOP, that comes from problems bigger than them, but man they sure did help it along.

I also don't doubt that there were also violent opportunists and looters among the peaceful protestors as well. That's kind of the nature of large crowds. But I do not hold rally organizers responsible for them. They can't control who shows up.

...Unlike police departments, who absolutely can control who they recruit, and what kind of training they get.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

After their success in Seattle, Antifa tried to do it in Portland and a few other cities, but the Mayor in those cities actually had a backbone and allowed the Police to do their Job and the attempt was a complete failure. Seattle should have dealt with their problem the same way Portland and others did; by not even letting it happen in the first place.

I'll say it again - the picture is much, much bigger than just CHOP.

When I say "you can expect things like CHOP to keep happening", I do not merely mean you can expect people to literally do the exact same thing and occupy a few city blocks.

I mean if you expressly communicate to people that traditional peaceful public protest - picket lines and marches and sloganeering - will result in nothing at all being changed at the very best, and getting violently assaulted at worst, they will not throw up their hands and say "oh well, guess we'll just go home and decide to be happy with the status quo." No. They will find other means of getting your attention. That can manifest in any number of ways.

And if anyone thinks CHOP is the worst of those ways, they have zero understanding of history.

 

[Ken-1122]

Oh, lord how I wish it was as simple as that. I wish reality followed the logic of that common tagline - "Just be peaceful/obey the law, and you won't be pepper sprayed/assaulted/strangled/murdered/etc".

It doesn't, though. That's a fantasy.

In reality, May 30th, the first of the large scale George Floyd protests in Seattle (as far as I am aware) took place in Westlake. All the video and pictures I have from it are from personal accounts of friends of mine, so I can't share them here, but it's not difficult to find other ones online if you want to search. Here are some written accounts from friends and friends of friends who were there. In all the pictures and videos, it is clearly broad daylight when this happened. Not night. Note the times,



Here's another,



And another,



And another,



And another,



^^^ The person who wrote that one is a very close friend of mine. She's the one who drove the second shooting victim from last week to the hospital, and very likely saved his life. She still has bloodstains in the back of her van, and is currently being stalked and harassed with violent rape threats by the Proud Boys, aka "very fine people" according to our president.

So...no. The police did not react to violence. They instigated violence, and they have only themselves to blame for the extreme distrust they've engendered in the protestors. They're not solely responsible for CHOP, that comes from problems bigger than them, but man they sure did they help it along.

I also don't doubt that there were also violent opportunists and looters among the peaceful protestors as well. That's kind of the nature of large crowds. But I do not hold rally organizers responsible for them. They can't control who shows up.

...Unlike police departments, who absolutely can control who they recruit, and what kind of training they get.

I guess we both have different accounts. Though I was not there, my friend was and he said none of the violence began till 4:00. (if you remember there was supposed to have been a 5:00 cerfew; had the violence began at 1:00 the cerfew would have been much earlier than that). He said when Antifa showed up, you could tell who they were and almost like clockwork they began smashing windows and tearing things up, and when some of the peaceful protesters tried to stop them they were attacked by the Antifa thugs. Only at that point did the violence begin with the Police. Once Antifa began breaking windows to store, some of the people who were peaceful up to that point began looting because they saw they could get away with it. But according to my source, none of it started till Antifa showed up.

 

[Ken-1122]

I'll say it again - the picture is much, much bigger than just CHOP.

When I say "you can expect things like CHOP to keep happening", I do not merely mean you can expect people to literally do the exact same thing and occupy a few city blocks.

I mean if you expressly communicate to people that traditional peaceful public protest - picket lines and marches and sloganeering - will result in nothing at all being changed at the very best, and getting violently assaulted at worst, they will not throw up their hands and say "oh well, guess we'll just go home and decide to be happy with the status quo." No. They will find other means of getting your attention. That can manifest in any number of ways.

And if anyone thinks CHOP is the worst of those ways, they have zero understanding of history.

Last year there were 9 unarmed black men killed by the Police (19 white men) Though there are aprox 750,000 police officers in the US, and millions of police encounters. Though 1 is too many if it is you, the reality is 9 is not a very large number of unarmed black men getting killed by the police. The reality is as long as the police are human, there will always be those who mess up, and all it takes is 1 mess up to result in rioting and the fear that this happens all the time. Unfortunately these type of rioting will happen again, and again, and again because there will never be a time when all 750,000 police officers will remain perfect. However that doesn't mean they shouldn't try.