Chimps and humans: How similar are we really?

[Loudmouth]

A mammal that sees with electrical signals,
with no stomach, a bill, and venomous
webbed feet that lays eggs you mean?
Your subconscious got you on that one.
It remembered even if you didn't.

Which of those are bird features, again?

 

[PsychoSarah]

And my point is that DNA analysis will match form and function observations
not to confirm "relationships", but to confirm form and function similarities.

-_- DNA doesn't have to match in order to have identical function, thanks to how redundant codons are. That is, most codons chemically signal the addition of an amino acid that at least 1 other codon also chemically signals. As many as 4 different codons can signal the same amino acid. Not only that, but some amino acids are so chemically similar that even if you swapped them for each other in proteins, the proteins would still function about the same, making conformity in DNA sequences even less necessary.

And DNA will transfer to similar organisms in various ways due to environment.
Or just eating them.

-_- by that logic, vegans should have more plant-like DNA than people that eat meat, and they don't. Heck, the Irish should be 95% potato by now.

 

[SkyWriting]

- DNA doesn't have to match in order to have identical function, thanks to how redundant codons are. That is, most codons chemically signal the addition of an amino acid that at least 1 other codon also chemically signals. As many as 4 different codons can signal the same amino acid. Not only that, but some amino acids are so chemically similar that even if you swapped them for each other in proteins, the proteins would still function about the same, making conformity in DNA sequences even less necessary.

And my point is that DNA analysis (might) match form and function observations
not to confirm "relationships", but to confirm form and function similarities.

 

[SkyWriting]

- by that logic, vegans should have more plant-like DNA than people that eat meat, and they don't. Heck, the Irish should be 95% potato by now.

I wasn't using logic.

Genetically Modified Crops (read Potatoes) Can Be Transferred Into Humans Who Eat Them

"In all, the researchers pinpointed hundreds of genes that appeared to have been transferred from bacteria, archaea, fungi, other microorganisms, and plants to animals, they report online today in Genome Biology. In the case of humans, they found 145 genes that seemed to have jumped from simpler organisms, including 17 that had been reported in the past as possible horizontal gene transfers."

 

[SkyWriting]

Which of those are bird features, again?

As I said, you get to make up the classifications anyway,
so how you classify doesn't really matter. In scripture
bats fly, so they are considered birds.

And rabbits chew their cud....even though the definition
of "cud" is different for us today than when scripture was written.

 

[SkyWriting]

That is completely false. We aren't 98% chimp because we eat chimps.

Unless one reads:

Complete Genes May Pass from Food to Human Blood
Horizontal gene transfer: You are what you eat - ScienceDirect
Horizontal gene transfer in the human gastrointestinal tract:

 

[mark kennedy]

You know what mark kennedy? I am sick and tired of mentioning mutations in brain related genes that do improve brain function, and having you entirely ignore them. Your assertion that brain related mutations always result in detrimental effects (aside from those that have no effect at all) is demonstrably false to the point that I feel you are purposefully ignoring people that present you with examples that disprove your assertion. It literally only takes 1 example of a benign brain mutation to debunk your assertion, and people have been listing dozens to you.

So I have a question: do you actually care if there are benign mutations in brain related genes?

You know what @PsychoSarah do you care about the deleterious effects of mutations on brain related genes? 'Hundreds of CNVs have been linked to neurological phenotypes, including autism, schizophrenia, and bipolar disorder'.(CNVs in neurodevelopmental disorders Oncotarget). Now if you want to show me benign mutations in brain related genes go for it, so far you have only refereed to them in generalities. What is infinitely more important we are talking about the assumed evolution of brain related genes giving rise to the nearly three fold expansion of the human brain from that of apes.

This is a critical point almost universally ignored, including by you.

 

[SkyWriting]

Which of those are bird features, again?

• Birds have a backbone. They are vertebrates.
• All birds are warm-blooded. They can regulate their body temperature.
• Birds also lay eggs, like cold blooded reptiles.
• Have a beak or bill.

 

[SkyWriting]

Then show me a species with a mixture of bird and mammal features.

Eggs are not unique to birds, of course, as fish, reptiles, amphibians and insects also lay eggs.
All birds have beaks, or bills. Ducks and geese have broad, flat beaks for straining food out of the water.
All birds have wings, as do insects, although not all birds fly.

 

[Aman777]

↑
Aman:>>"...God's Holy Word which agrees with every discovery of mankind."

That sounds made-up. How did God's word agree with the discovery of Pluto?

Genesis 2:4 shows that other "heavens" were made on the 3rd Day, which was 13.8 Billion years ago in man's time. Pluto, and every other planet came forth from those FIRST Stars on the NEXT Day Gen 1:16 less than a Billion years AFTER the beginning of our Cosmos. Can you explain HOW any ancient man who lived thousands of years BEFORE Science, knew this? and got it correct?

Aman:>>False, since you have confused Humans (descendants of Adam) with the sons of God (prehistoric people).

"Sons" - who are these 'sons'? Specifically, who are they, and what is the evidence that they really were sons of God?

Adam was formed of clay on the 3rd Day Gen 2:7 by Jesus and are HIS kinds.
The sons of God (prehistoric people) were created and came forth on the 5th Day Gen 1:21 from WATER, were created by The Trinity or THEIR kinds. Perhaps you would prefer sons of The Trinity since God in Hebrew is Elohim, a PLURAL name.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You know what @PsychoSarah do you care about the deleterious effects of mutations on brain related genes? 'Hundreds of CNVs have been linked to neurological phenotypes, including autism, schizophrenia, and bipolar disorder'.(CNVs in neurodevelopmental disorders Oncotarget).

-_- thanks for lumping in autistic people like myself with schizophrenics and people with bipolar disorder. None of those disorders actually limit reproduction much. Heck, all three require currently unknown environmental cues to even afflict a person. For all you know, you have a genetic predisposition to one or all three of those disorders, and you just never ended up with them by lucking out on your environment.

Now if you want to show me benign mutations in brain related genes go for it, so far you have only refereed to them in generalities.

That's not true, in a previous debate, I listed off ones by official label. Others have done so in this very thread. I shouldn't have to keep looking up the official labels every time I bring up these mutations.

What is infinitely more important we are talking about the assumed evolution of brain related genes giving rise to the nearly three fold expansion of the human brain from that of apes.

This is a critical point almost universally ignored, including by you.

-_-

1. I'm too distracted by you ignoring the examples of beneficial brain gene mutations to want to give much thought to your continued, shallow, emotional appeal of how ridiculous you think it is for mutations to be the reason why human brains are larger than those of other apes.

2. I don't view this as "a critical point". Brains are like any other organ, you might as well be incredulous about the evolution of lizard bladders. You've failed consistently to properly defend your position that mutation can't contribute positively to human intelligence, especially when it comes to the positive brain mutations you keep deciding to ignore.

3. I'm not going to pretend that other people haven't given you official labels for positive brain mutations in humans, only for you to ignore them. You have to demonstrate that it is even worth my time to debate with you any more, by actually addressing the claimed positive mutations. You don't have to treat them as valid, I don't care how much denial you want to be in, just acknowledge people have given you examples of these positive mutations and you disagree with their claims or the studies that show them. Ignoring these points is just insulting to the people debating with you.

 

[SkyWriting]

Eggs are not unique to birds, of course, as fish, reptiles, amphibians and insects also lay eggs.
All birds have beaks, or bills. Ducks and geese have broad, flat beaks for straining food out of the water.
All birds have wings, as do insects, although not all birds fly.

@Loudmouth
OK. I took the bait with the joke about no mixed animal traits.
I am waiting for your punchline to the joke.....

 

[tas8831]

I wasn't using logic.

Could have stopped there.

 

[tas8831]

Eggs are not unique to birds, of course, as fish, reptiles, amphibians and insects also lay eggs.
All birds have beaks, or bills. Ducks and geese have broad, flat beaks for straining food out of the water.
All birds have wings, as do insects, although not all birds fly./images/content/bat.jpg[/IMG]

Skull of a platypus:

https://boneclones.com/images/store-product/product-165-main-original-1448059372.jpg

Skull of a duck:


http://www.bare-bonez.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/SQ-Duck-Skull-1.png

Please absorb like a sponge.

 

[tas8831]

Was this ignored to save face, or because it had to many big words?

So no, you don't get it.

Again, high school level understanding of biology, at the very least, is a common sense prerequisite for trying to 'take down' a biological phenomenon.

As you are in Trump-mode, I think this will be a total waste of effort, so I will not put a lot into it, but here goes...



ALL eukaryotic cells have to perform the same basic functions, whether they are in bananas or worms or humans.

They have to have internal structure - the so-called cytoskeleton. For just one of several cytoskeletal proteins - tubulin - we have 23 genes (and maybe 48 pseudogenes). Another common cytoskeletal protein, actin, is produced by 6 genes.

They have to be able to transport water across their membranes. One way to use this is via a channel protein called aquaporin. There are 14 aquaporin genes.

Name a function that a eukaryotic cell has to perform, and there will be a bare minimum of 1 gene in any and all eukaryotic cells that produces a protein that is involved in that function, whether it is a worm or a bird or a banana.

Getting any clearer at all? Too many big words?

And there is a LOT of stuff IN the cell membrane of eukaryotic cells. About half, by weight, of eukaryotic cell membranes are proteins of various kinds. These include receptors, antigens, adhesion molecules, channels, etc. It is estimated that up to 30% of all genes in eukaryotic genomes encode cell membrane proteins. REGARDLESS of cell type. JUST for proteins in the cell membrane.

Clearer yet?

I know these are not Lego blocks, but this is an issue that you brought up and were clearly uninformed about.

The reason humans and worms and bananas have so many genes in common is because all are made up of cells, and cells all have to do the same basic stuff.

It is like looking at a Porsche and a garden tractor - both need wheels (and the means to connect them to the drive assemblies, etc.), an engine (and all of the things needed for an engine to run), etc. So a Porsche and a garden tractor are going to 'share' nearly all of their parts in one form or another.


Too much info this early in the morning?

 

[tas8831]

A mammal that sees with electrical signals,
with no stomach, a bill, and venomous
webbed feet that lays eggs you mean?
Your subconscious got you on that one.
It remembered even if you didn't.

LOL!

Creationist 'science.'

These folks still think a platypus has a bill.

 

[PsychoSarah]

And my point is that DNA analysis (might) match form and function observations
not to confirm "relationships", but to confirm form and function similarities.

-_- then why would organisms have similar sequences, but in one organism, it no longer serves any function while it does in the other? What a waste of space.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Or are you asking if there is a mammal with wings that can fly?

The real point is that you invented the classification system
and there will inevitably be some crossover exceptions unless you are
arguing for immutable "Kinds" from scripture, which I doubt
you are.

If "kinds" is such a perfect system for describing organisms, then why don't you tell me what "kind" a tardigrade belongs to?

Or, how about any of the Euglena, an entire genus of organisms that photosynthesize when light levels are sufficient, and become predatory in low light conditions?

 

[PsychoSarah]

I wasn't using logic.

Genetically Modified Crops (read Potatoes) Can Be Transferred Into Humans Who Eat Them

"In all, the researchers pinpointed hundreds of genes that appeared to have been transferred from bacteria, archaea, fungi, other microorganisms, and plants to animals, they report online today in Genome Biology. In the case of humans, they found 145 genes that seemed to have jumped from simpler organisms, including 17 that had been reported in the past as possible horizontal gene transfers."

-_- Collective Evolution .Com doesn't exactly seem like a reliable source for anything. For example, this source they site is only an abstract, and the abstract makes the opposite conclusion you are suggesting Assessing the survival of transgenic plant DNA in the human gastrointestinal tract. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Aman777]

If "kinds" is such a perfect system for describing organisms, then why don't you tell me what "kind" a tardigrade belongs to?

Or, how about any of the Euglena, an entire genus of organisms that photosynthesize when light levels are sufficient, and become predatory in low light conditions?

Both creatures were made by Lord God/Jesus as temporary creatures which are called creeping things in Scripture.

Gen 6:20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.

Their kinds are the kinds which God created from water on the 5th Day. Gen 1:21
His kinds are the kinds which Lord God made temporarily such as mankind. Gen 2:7 In order to have Humans who live forever, mankind MUST be born again Spiritually by God the Trinity. Gen 1:26 Gen 5:1-2 AND John 14:16 God Bless you