Charismatic Movement inm Main Line

[ARBITER01]

So, have you seen this gift in action? Do you have it yourself? Can I say I have it if I can watch Benny Hinn's fruit in action and identify evil within him?

Are you calling Benny Hinn, a born again Christian, evil? There are rules here against bashing Christian leaders, no matter if you don't like them. I do enjoy making such reports at times, hint, hint.

Were the Apostles in Acts using the gift of tongues to talk to the masses gathered there in they're own foreign languages or with gibberish? This is an example of the gift of tongues correct?

2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak
with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of
every nation under heaven.
2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together,
and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in
his own language.​

No it's not, not when they heard human languages, that was the gift of prophecy according to Peter,..

Act 2:16 but this is that which hath been spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 Yea and on my servants and on my handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day:
Act 2:21 And it shall be, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

To fulfill the prophecy, they had to be prophesying, hence it was the gift of prophecy.

Do you have any actual scripture that states the gift speaks in human languages?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Are you calling Benny Hinn, a born again Christian, evil? There are rules here against bashing Christian leaders, no matter if you don't like them. I do enjoy making such reports at times, hint, hint.

1) I'm not calling Benny Hinn evil I'm saying the spirit that is using him is evil.
2) We're on the non-denom. subforum so he's NOT a Christian leader here. If we were over in the Pentacostal / Charismatic boards you might have a point.
3) You're shallow threats for the purpose of limiting my gift of spiritual discernment fall on deaf ears.

No it's not, not when they heard human languages, that was the gift of prophecy according to Peter,..

To fulfill the prophecy, they had to be prophesying, hence it was the gift of prophecy.

Lolz...thats laughable. They were transmitting THE GOSPELS not prophesying. You cant find a better example of the gift of tongues. It even says:

2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak
with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.​

Do you have any actual scripture that states the gift speaks in human languages?

See above.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

New Mystics
​

Since the concept of developing a new type of Mystic is the goal for enabling the embracement of the One-World Religion, it is important to understand the root of the manifestations themselves. It's been discussed in such articles as Sins of the 'father~ Charles F. Parham and The 'god' In Every Man, that the manifestations found in the Charismatic/ Pentecostal/Vineyard movements are the same as found in mysticism, witchcraft and shamanism and that the roots of these movements and people involved were contrary to Scripture.

There are many, while perhaps rejecting the more offensive manifestations of the Charismatic's, like barking or biting, cling to glossolalia as an acceptable evidence of having the Holy Spirit, or hang on to it as a private prayer language. Many might reject any of the moves, but cling to the other. Many will admit that even though they now reject the Charismatic movement and its other manifestations, they fully believe that the tongues that they have embraced was a gift of the Holy Spirit. However, they also admit having received the manifestation of tongues while involved in the Catholic Charismatic or other movements they now reject, some receiving it with the laying on of hands. Others view all the moves as of God, and reject any of the facts in these articles.

Many cannot understand that those who love the Lord do not need that show of a manifestation, but rather, we are to walk by faith, not by sight. Some seem to believe that those who haven't received the manifestation of tongues, will eventually, as their belief hinges on the idea that it is part of the upward movement of growing in Christ. There are those who unknowingly are clinging to the Fire Baptism/Holiness teachings that suggest that unless one speaks in tongues, they haven't received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, a concept which has been foundational to Pentecostalism.

Pentecostal Tongues and "The Inner Ecstasy"​

 

[canukian]

after watching the last video on film people going bananas in "church" i realize my own conviction of the imminent collapse of western civilization aka christendom is true.

the reason for the collapse will be the same as it has always been. the abandoment of god.

soon humanity will be hiding behind trees wearing fig leaves.

 

[canukian]

Are you calling Benny Hinn, a born again Christian, evil? There are rules here against bashing Christian leaders, no matter if you don't like them. I do enjoy making such reports at times, hint, hint.

darn. i hate to see free speech squelched. if people speek freely they can be corrected. it is evil that does stuff in darkness in secret.

 

[ARBITER01]

1) I'm not calling Benny Hinn evil I'm saying the spirit that is using him is evil.
2) We're on the non-denom. subforum so he's NOT a Christian leader here. If we were over in the Pentacostal / Charismatic boards you might have a point.
3) You're shallow threats for the purpose of limiting my gift of spiritual discernment fall on deaf ears.

Sorry,... these are "community rules",..

Flaming
You will not insult, belittle, mock, use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members, or personally attack other members or groups of members. Do not goad another member or start call-out threads. Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian. Avoid using sarcasm to attempt any of the above.

Benny Hinn has identified himself as a Christian, why are you denouncing him as not?

And no, aside from your attempts to redefine the discerning of spirits gift somehow, it doesn't work so you can call The Holy Spirit evil in someone. There is no scripture reference to such a thing.

Lolz...thats laughable. They were transmitting THE GOSPELS not prophesying. You cant find a better example of the gift of tongues. It even says:

2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak
with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.​

Sorry, the gift of tongues did not fulfill that prophecy,... they had to be specifically "prophesying" to do that. It is quite easy to read that section to know that.

And no, the gift does not "transmit the gospels" somehow, whatever that was suppose to mean.

See above.

So you have no specific scripture reference to Paul stating that the gift of tongues speaks in human languages, and you are just inferring things?

Thought so.

 

[ARBITER01]

bully who hates fee speech.

namecalling? Maybe you need to recognize the rules also,..

Flaming
You will not insult, belittle, mock, use derogatory nicknames in reference to other members, or personally attack other members or groups of members. Do not goad another member or start call-out threads. Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian. Avoid using sarcasm to attempt any of the above.

You are able to post here without insulting folks I would think, no?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Sorry,... these are "community rules",..

Benny Hinn has identified himself as a Christian, why are you denouncing him as not?

The flaming rule applies to forum members ONLY. Nice try bud.

We can discern and shine a light on false teachers. It's our right as Christians. WE are told to beware. As in.....be aware!

7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing,
but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of
thorns, or figs of thistles?​

And no, aside from your attempts to redefine the discerning of spirits gift somehow, it doesn't work so you can call The Holy Spirit evil in someone. There is no scripture reference to such a thing.

Doesnt make any sense. Can someone have evil spirits in them? the spiritof antichrist maybe?

Sorry, the gift of tongues did not fulfill that prophecy,... they had to be specifically "prophesying" to do that. It is quite easy to read that section to know that.

And no, the gift does not "transmit the gospels" somehow, whatever that was suppose to mean.

So you have no specific scripture reference to Paul stating that the gift of tongues speaks in human languages, and you are just inferring things?

Thought so.

I'm not even gonna bother replying to this. The idea that the Holy Spirit giving the Apostles the miraculous ability to speak to people in a variety of native languages is NOT the gift of tongues is simply ridonculous.

 

[ARBITER01]

The flaming rule applies to forum members ONLY. Nice try bud.

We can discern and shine a light on false teachers. It's our right as Christians. WE are told to beware. As in.....be aware!

7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing,
but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of
thorns, or figs of thistles?​

Doesnt make any sense. Can someone have evil spirits in them? the spiritof antichrist maybe?

What I did was reported your post so the moderators can decide it, easy enough.

I'm not even gonna bother replying to this. The idea that the Holy Spirit giving the Apostles the miraculous ability to speak to people in a variety of native languages is NOT the gift of tongues is simply ridonculous.

Then you are saying that Paul was lying to us?...

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men edification, and comfort, and consolation.

These teachings from Paul specifically say a person speaking in tongues does not speak to men while a person prophesying does,.... are you denying this?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

What I did was reported your post so the moderators can decide it, easy enough.

You reported me for flaming someone who is not a member here. What a complete waste of the moderators valuable time.

Then you are saying that Paul was lying to us?...

No I'm saying your interpretations of Pauls teachings are in error.

These teachings from Paul specifically say a person speaking in tongues does not speak to men while a person prophesying does,.... are you denying this?

Nope. Not denying it. But the miraculous gift of tongues in Acts and Paul's rebuke of the Corinthians for using foreign languages without an interpreter are two seprate things, both of which involve foreign languages.

We see a few different gifts of tongues.

1) The miraculous gift of tongues at Pentacost
2) The ability to speak in a foreign language.
3) The ability to interpret a foreign language.

 

[ARBITER01]

You reported me for flaming someone who is not a member here. What a complete waste of the moderators valuable time.

That is what we are suppose to do according to the rules, let moderators figure things out when needed.

No I'm saying your interpretations of Pauls teachings are in error.

Nope. Not denying it. But the miraculous gift of tongues in Acts and Paul's rebuke of the Corinthians for using foreign languages without an interpreter are two seprate things, both of which involve foreign languages.

We see a few different gifts of tongues.

1) The miraculous gift of tongues at Pentacost
2) The ability to speak in a foreign language.
3) The ability to interpret a foreign language.

Sorry,... Paul only addressed one type of gift of tongue, there is not two listed in scripture.

There are only 9 Spiritual gifts, not 10.

So again,... it is quite simple,..

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men edification, and comfort, and consolation.

A person speaking in tongues does not speak to mankind, just to GOD, while a person prophesying "does" speak to mankind, which answers the question why Peter referred to the event as prophecy happening instead of tongues.

You can't fulfill a prophecy that calls for prophesying by speaking in tongues instead, it doesn't work that way friend.

 

[Big Drew]

So where is this "truth" that the gifts have ceased?

Waiting....

 

[ARBITER01]

Waiting....

I highly doubt you will get a very truthful answer from him on it.

 

[Big Drew]

I highly doubt you will get a very truthful answer from him on it.

I'm sure I won't...cessationists just repeat the same tired eisegesis.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

That is what we are suppose to do according to the rules, let moderators figure things out when needed.

I clearly havn't broken any rules, thats why I said its a waste of time.

Sorry,... Paul only addressed one type of gift of tongue, there is not two listed in scripture.

There are only 9 Spiritual gifts, not 10.

So interpretation of tongues....and speaking of tongues. Arn't they seperate elements of the same gift? Whats wrong with adding the gift of tongues at Pentacost to that umbrella?

So again,... it is quite simple,..

A person speaking in tongues does not speak to mankind, just to GOD,

Ya....when they dont have an interpreter for the foreign language being used. That was Pauls point.

while a person prophesying "does" speak to mankind, which answers the question why Peter referred to the event as prophecy happening instead of tongues.

Peter talks about lots of things in those verse after the tongues event. Some of which apply and some that obviously dont.

Anyway can't you utilise the gift of tongues to prophecy?

Plus if the Apostles were evangelizing the Gospels to the people in their own tongue then they were TEACHING them which is part of the office of a prophet.

 

[ARBITER01]

So interpretation of tongues....and speaking of tongues. Arn't they seperate elements of the same gift? Whats wrong with adding the gift of tongues at Pentacost to that umbrella?

They are listed differently are they not?

Ya....when they dont have an interpreter for the foreign language being used. That was Pauls point.

Sorry, the gift of tongues requires an interpreter, it is not a human language but a spiritual one, as Paul taught,..

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Peter talks about lots of things in those verse after the tongues event. Some of which apply and some that obviously dont.

But to fulfill the event described in the prophecy, the people had to be prophesying, there is no way around it.

Anyway can't you utilise the gift of tongues to prophecy?

Plus if the Apostles were evangelizing the Gospels to the people in their own tongue then they were TEACHING them which is part of the office of a prophet.

Let's just stick to the subject, I will ignore distractions from it, just so you know.

 

[ARBITER01]

I'm sure I won't...cessationists just repeat the same tired eisegesis.

Yep, they refuse Ephesians,..

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;
Eph 4:15 but speaking truth in love, may grow up in all things into him, which is the head, even Christ;

The church has yet to reach this point described in scripture, as you and I both know, but he'll parrot the same ol things as others have.

 

[Big Drew]

Yep, they refuse Ephesians,..


The church has yet to reach this point described in scripture, as you and I both know, but he'll parrot the same ol things as others have.

Excellent point.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

So where is this "truth" that the gifts have ceased?

Waiting....

Who said the gifts ceased? I'm just arguing that you think talking gobbledeegook is a gift when its actually not. Speaking foreign languages is.

Prophets are still around coz we can teach and foretell the future from the word.

Healing is still here coz we have doctors.

Wisdom and knowledge are still around coz we have the Bible,

What were the others again?

Working miracles? Havn't seen that around have you?

Pentacostals and charismatics like to have erotic, physical manifestations of God to make them feel holy. It's a flesh thing.

Some of us choose to worship in the spirit like we're told.

4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in
spirit and in truth.

Barne's Notes:

"God is A spirit - This is the second reason why men should worship him in spirit and in truth. By this is meant that God is without a body; that he is not material or composed of parts; that he is invisible, in every place, pure and holy. This is one of the first truths of religion, and one of the sublimest ever presented to the mind of man. Almost all nations have had some idea of God as gross or material, but the Bible declares that he is a pure spirit. As he is such a spirit, he dwells not in temples made with hands Acts 7:48, neither is worshipped with men's hands as though he needed anything, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things, Acts 17:25. A pure, a holy, a spiritual worship, therefore, is such as he seeks - the offering of the soul rather than the formal offering of the body - the homage of the heart rather than that of the lips. "​

 

[ARBITER01]

Who said the gifts ceased? I'm just arguing that you think talking gobbledeegook is a gift when its actually not. Speaking foreign languages is.

Prophets are still around coz we can teach and foretell the future from the word.

Healing is still here coz we have doctors.

Wisdom and knowledge are still around coz we have the Bible,

What were the others again?

Working miracles? Havn't seen that around have you?

Pentacostals and charismatics like to have erotic, physical manifestations of God to make them feel holy. It's a flesh thing.

Some of us choose to worship in the spirit like we're told.

4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in
spirit and in truth.

Barne's Notes:

"God is A spirit - This is the second reason why men should worship him in spirit and in truth. By this is meant that God is without a body; that he is not material or composed of parts; that he is invisible, in every place, pure and holy. This is one of the first truths of religion, and one of the sublimest ever presented to the mind of man. Almost all nations have had some idea of God as gross or material, but the Bible declares that he is a pure spirit. As he is such a spirit, he dwells not in temples made with hands Acts 7:48, neither is worshipped with men's hands as though he needed anything, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things, Acts 17:25. A pure, a holy, a spiritual worship, therefore, is such as he seeks - the offering of the soul rather than the formal offering of the body - the homage of the heart rather than that of the lips. "​

I'm sorry my friend, but as Christians, we don't make things up to justify our personal opinions, whether they are our own or from our church/denomination.

You refuse to abide in scripture, so I don't see any of us accepting your views as even remotely correct. I certainly wouldn't.

And your churlish denouncing of other churches shows a lack of growth on your part, as well as understanding.

Not much more say.