Charismatic Movement inm Main Line

[His_disciple3]

Fact is you havn't answered my question straight.

I'm guessing by your dancing around that you are saying you're report to a pastor was because 'tongues' was being used without an interpreter. Is that correct?

So on those occasions where you felt you had to make a report was it with foreign tongues or with gibberish?

And was it your church or a different one that this misuse occured in?

If you could just give straight answers without all the attitude and defensive posture that would be helpful.

Doc.

how much clearer can I make things. oh let me see if this will help
IT was not my Church, if it had been my church. I would have Said my church and not a church!!!!!!!!
and sir How can i say if it was gibberous of a known tongue unless I knew the language that was being used, and I only know english, so there. one other advice I could give to you when I said a church , you assumed i was referring to MY CHURCH, sir you should never assume anything!!!

How many people do you know if they are talking about their church say well at a church that I church go, they would say the Church I go to or MY church!!tell Ministry tony I said hello
And i am not shouting just thought maybe your eyes were bad or something since you can't understand what I was saying

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

how much clearer can I make things. oh let me see if this will help

IT was not my Church, if it had been my church. I would have Said my church and not a church!!!!!!!!

Ok dude calm down. Thats all you had to say.

and sir How can i say if it was gibberous of a known tongue unless I knew the language that was being used, and I only know english, so there.

I can't relate to that statement. I can recognise a worldly language. Usually I will be able to tell you specifically what language it is, even if I dont understand what they are saying. Spanish, French, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, German, Portuguese and most others are easy to recognise. African languages may be the only exception.

That kind of gibberish you hear these pentacostals using....you know it's not any earthly language. It just sounds so wrong. You should know the difference really if you have any experience of life.

Kindly keep your font down friend. I think they heard you over in China!

 

[ARBITER01]

I can't relate to that statement. I can recognise a worldly language. Usually I will be able to tell you specifically what language it is, even if I dont understand what they are saying. Spanish, French, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, German, Portuguese and most others are easy to recognise. African languages may be the only exception.

That kind of gibberish you hear these pentacostals using....you know it's not any earthly language. It just sounds so wrong. You should know the difference really if you have any experience of life.

Kindly keep your font down friend. I think they heard you over in China!

So I take it you have only a book knowledge of GOD's giftings? You don't currently operate in any of the 9 Spiritual giftings from The Holy Spirit, is that correct?

 

[Markus6]

If you hear someone talk or sing and remark that they 'have the voice of an angel'....what does it mean?

Using modern metaphors to interpret a first century writing isn't a good idea.

Also what is the meaning of 'Angel'?

A messenger.

Voice of a messenger?

A teacher....a prophet....someone who speaks well and true from the Word of God.

Not talking gibberish.

So are you stating that all the angels mentioned in scripture are just humans?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

So I take it you have only a book knowledge of GOD's giftings? You don't currently operate in any of the 9 Spiritual giftings from The Holy Spirit, is that correct?

Having perused over your alledged 9 spiritual giftings from the charismatic wiki entry I'd say I posess the following:

- discernment of spirits (Being able to identify false teachers)

- prophecy (I can read and teach prophecy from the Word, as can anyone)

- Faith (Lolz....I believe in Christ, goes without sayin')

- Word of Wisdom (From the Bible)

- Word of Knowledge (From the Bible)

I'm not fluent in any foreign language so I'll leave out the gift of tongues.

I'm not a Physician so I'll leave out the gift of healing.

Miraculous powers? Not that I know of.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Using modern metaphors to interpret a first century writing isn't a good idea.

It makes sense though so.... (**shrug**)

So are you stating that all the angels mentioned in scripture are just humans?

No. Not sayin' that. Just saying that the word means messenger. Thas'all.

 

[ARBITER01]

Having perused over your alledged 9 spiritual giftings from the charismatic wiki entry I'd say I posess the following:

- discernment of spirits (Being able to identify false teachers)

- prophecy (I can read and teach prophecy from the Word, as can anyone)

- Faith (Lolz....I believe in Christ, goes without sayin')

- Word of Wisdom (From the Bible)

- Word of Knowledge (From the Bible)

I'm not fluent in any foreign language so I'll leave out the gift of tongues.

I'm not a Physician so I'll leave out the gift of healing.

Miraculous powers? Not that I know of.

Yep, that's what I thought, just a book knowledge, and it seems you are obviously guessing as to what they do.

For instance, discerning of spirits deals specifically with "spirits," and the gift identifies whether they are divine or demonic, and we see this gift in operation when Jesus vocally identified demonic strongholds that held people in bondage to sin, and cast them out. How did you define it? You think it operates in some other area instead of with spirits.

All of these gifts are heavenly gifts from our Father, not human talents that any atheist would be able to learn over time, as you seem to present in your list.

This is why your ideas revolving around the gift of tongues are wrong. It seems you are purposely making Paul out to be a liar before us in your effort to define them with your mind.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Yep, that's what I thought, just a book knowledge, and it seems you are obviously guessing as to what they do.

If you want to bring forth scripture that explains these gifts in detail then please do.

For instance, discerning of spirits deals specifically with "spirits," and the gift identifies whether they are divine or demonic, and we see this gift in operation when Jesus vocally identified demonic strongholds that held people in bondage to sin, and cast them out. How did you define it? You think it operates in some other area instead of with spirits.

If someone claims to be pulling off signs and wonders using the power of God, it is a claimed spiritual power, therefore I am within my rights to discern whether that spirit is of God......or not. Example, I can watch a youtube clip of Benny Hinn knocking people over on stage and discern whether this is a spiritual gift of God....or if its a stage trick.

All of these gifts are heavenly gifts from our Father, not human talents that any atheist would be able to learn over time, as you seem to present in your list.

All of them? If that were the case then there would be no need to test the spirits.

This is why your ideas revolving around the gift of tongues are wrong. It seems you are purposely making Paul out to be a liar before us in your effort to define them with your mind.

If you can prove I'm making Paul out to be a liar using scripture then I will happily recant on any remarks I've made.

 

[ARBITER01]

If someone claims to be pulling off signs and wonders using the power of God, it is a claimed spiritual power, therefore I am within my rights to discern whether that spirit is of God......or not. Example, I can watch a youtube clip of Benny Hinn knocking people over on stage and discern whether this is a spiritual gift of God....or if its a stage trick.

That would be spiritual discernment, not discerning of spirits. Discerning of spirits deals specifically with "spirits" just like the greek says.

If you can prove I'm making Paul out to be a liar using scripture then I will happily recant on any remarks I've made.

Were you not specifically saying here that the gift of tongues is in human languages, and understandable? And does not Paul say,..

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Paul says that the gift is not directed at mankind but to GOD, and additionally says that the gift is not understandable, so are you not attempting to make Paul out to be a liar here to us?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

That would be spiritual discernment, not discerning of spirits.

Mmmmkay buddy. Whatever you say. It's all the same to me. Tell me about the last time you did some 'discerning of spirits'. Help me understand.

Were you not specifically saying here that the gift of tongues is in human languages, and understandable? And does not Paul say,..

Paul says that the gift is not directed at mankind but to GOD, and additionally says that the gift is not understandable, so are you not attempting to make Paul out to be a liar here to us?

No I'm not. I just clearly have a different interpretation than you. theres no need to go flinging accusation around.

If theres no one around you, in your congregation that speaks whatever foreign tongue you are talking, then you are clearly, at that moment in time...not talking to men. Only God understands you. Although, by the aid of the Spirit, he should, in fact, deliver the most important and sublime truths. This would doubtless be the case, that those who were thus endowed would deliver most important truths, but they would be "lost" upon those who heard them, because they could not understand them.

Thats what the verse says to me.

And in the following verses Paul clearly discourages people from doing that. So whether its gibberish or a foreign tongue, its best not to do it.

 

[ARBITER01]

Mmmmkay buddy. Whatever you say. It's all the same to me. Tell me about the last time you did some 'discerning of spirits'. Help me understand.

I think I just gave you plenty of understanding there since the Greek was very specific to all of us in this area, but you tend to want to define it otherwise.

No I'm not. I just clearly have a different interpretation than you. theres no need to go flinging accusation around.

If theres no one around you, in your congregation that speaks whatever foreign tongue you are talking, then you are clearly, at that moment in time...not talking to men. Only God understands you. Although, by the aid of the Spirit, he should, in fact, deliver the most important and sublime truths. This would doubtless be the case, that those who were thus endowed would deliver most important truths, but they would be "lost" upon those who heard them, because they could not understand them.

Thats what the verse says to me.

And in the following verses Paul clearly discourages people from doing that. So whether its gibberish or a foreign tongue, its best not to do it.

No you specifically said that people were speaking in human languages that others understood thereby making Paul out to be lying here to us.

If no man understands, than that is what he meant, correct?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

I think I just gave you plenty of understanding there since the Greek was very specific to all of us in this area, but you tend to want to define it otherwise.

I dont think the Greek translation undermines my position in the slightest. 'Spirits' exist IN PEOPLE and bring about ACTIONS. If you are testing the spirits then that can mean discerning whether peoples actions are of God or not.

No you specifically said that people were speaking in human languages that others understood thereby making Paul out to be lying here to us.

If no man understands, than that is what he meant, correct?

No,,,,not correct.

If you are in a room and are speaking a foreign language and NO MAN in that room speaks that language...then NO MAN can understand what you are saying at that point in time. Correct?

 

[ARBITER01]

I dont think the Greek translation undermines my position in the slightest. 'Spirits' exist IN PEOPLE and bring about ACTIONS. If you are testing the spirits then that can mean discerning whether peoples actions are of God or not.

So how does a person know if a demonic stronghold is affecting a disease in a person or not? Do they just guess?

No,,,,not correct.

If you are in a room and are speaking a foreign language and NO MAN in that room speaks that language...then NO MAN can understand what you are saying at that point in time. Correct?

But then again, Paul said that we speak to GOD, not man. Your example doesn't work in that regard since the gift is never directed at mankind.

We are only speaking to GOD with that gift, hence the need for the gift of interpretation of tongues to understand in the assembly.

 

[ARBITER01]

And that is not the only place where Paul makes mention of the requirement of the gift of interpretation of tongues to understand the gift of tongues,..

1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

And again,..

1Co 14:16 Else if thou bless with the spirit, how shall he that filleth the place of the unlearned say the Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he knoweth not what thou sayest?

It goes for believer and unbeliever alike, the gift of tongues is not understandable unless interpreted by the gift of interpretation.

 

[His_disciple3]

If you are in a room and are speaking a foreign language and NO MAN in that room speaks that language...then NO MAN can understand what you are saying at that point in time. Correct?

here we go again, Sir, let me explain one more time. if you are in a room and you are speaking a foreign language, then you are included in the Number of people in the room, so it could not be That NO MAN UNDERSTANDETH, for you would understand the language, that you are speaking , so it would Not BE an UNKNOWN TONGUE for one person (YOU) would know it. if you don't know the language and no one else does. then That is still a miracle Of God, esp. when the interpreter who would not know the language either interprets what you said, when you don't even know what you said!! If you can't listen to me and others please just listen to what you are saying, it makes no sense.

if no one knows the language but someone can still interpret it. That is a miracle of God not the devil. if someone knows the language it is not an UNKNOWN TONGUE!!!!!

 

[Big Drew]

Nice to know bigdrew but its a heavy indication though isn't it? That something may be desperately wrong in that particular denomination.

So you dont have any disorderly conduct in you're church?

No running around....flailing of arms....uncontrolable laughing....stage shows of signs and wonders...people falling over etc?

Nope, not at my church. We have a strong emphasis on prayer and healing...occasionally you may hear someone speak in tongues...we raise our hands and clap during praise and worship...and you may even see someone dance from time to time...but, you're not gonna see the other things you described...and, I've visited and ministered in several Pentecostal churches...and must say, that what you describe, is in the minority...at least in the ones I've been at..........

 

[Big Drew]

Speaking for myself..yes I think God's Word is the only thing to stand on and I deny 'truths' derived by fallible men based on the Word....which are usually in error. Best to stick with scripture eh?

So where is this "truth" that the gifts have ceased?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

So how does a person know if a demonic stronghold is affecting a disease in a person or not? Do they just guess?

God given discernment.

But then again, Paul said that we speak to GOD, not man. Your example doesn't work in that regard since the gift is never directed at mankind.

I think God speaks most foreign languages dont you? Therefore if there is no man that speaks that language in your congregation then God is the only one who is going to understand you. The example works just fine.

We are only speaking to GOD with that gift, hence the need for the gift of interpretation of tongues to understand in the assembly.

Lemme get this straight. In your congregation you have one member talking gibberish and a different guy interpreting this babble for the brethren. Is that correct? Is this interpretation done in real time...or does he write down the interpretation later or what? Can more than 1 person interpret the same babble?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

And that is not the only place where Paul makes mention of the requirement of the gift of interpretation of tongues to understand the gift of tongues,..

And again,..

It goes for believer and unbeliever alike, the gift of tongues is not understandable unless interpreted by the gift of interpretation.

Yes Paul is talking about interpreting foreign languages.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

here we go again, Sir, let me explain one more time. if you are in a room and you are speaking a foreign language, then you are included in the Number of people in the room, so it could not be That NO MAN UNDERSTANDETH, for you would understand the language, that you are speaking , so it would Not BE an UNKNOWN TONGUE for one person (YOU) would know it.

Lolz! I get you now, I must have missed the point coz its so silly.

It's pretty obvious it means no one ELSE.

If I say 'no man understands my peotry'.....what would you deduce from that statement?

Would you say that I myself dont understand my own poetry too?

If I say...'no man knows what goes on inside my head'...does that include me?

C'mon.

if no one knows the language but someone can still interpret it. That is a miracle of God not the devil. if someone knows the language it is not an UNKNOWN TONGUE!!!!!

Nah....its just two blokes doing stuff that anyone can do with no way of veryfying whether its real or not.

Tell you what, heres how you can verify it.

Next time you have someone talking gibberish, get TWO interpreters who have never met before and get them to write down their interpretations and see if they match up.

Ever tried that?