Hi all. I recently watched a video about a person who had changed his mind regarding his stance on pre-trib rapture. The video made some interesting points about just how difficult it is to change the way we perceive important, spiritual truths, especially when that change requires us to face difficult challenges.
The video is about 12 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think.
Very good video. There are entire denominations that have the rapture taking place post-trib.. for example I belong to one that Christianity Today calls the 5th largest and fastest growing Christian denomination in the world. So it is not as though this message is not getting out one way or another. I thank you for posting that video it will do a lot of good.
Which denomination is that, Bob?
Yes, I changed my views from pretrib (something I was "taught" growing up} to post trib about 20 years ago when I finally started to study on my own.
And yes, it is at times very hard for some to unlearn what has been indoctrinated over time. I went in with a completely open mind wanting to learn truth, no matter what that truth is and accept the love of the truth. And the truth was easy to see about the timing. Christ lays it out perfectly with Paul as another great witness.
Bingo! Bullseye! Nail on the head! Virtually everybody believes what he/she believes and everybody else is wrong. Just take a look at the threads in this forum alone, so many people "right in his own eyes" and hard of heart and very few people actually here to be true Bereans and discover
together what the Word says about what will soon be upon us.
If you can't approach each person's position with an open mind, i.e.
willing to change your own position if necessary, then it's pointless even posting in this forum at all. I've been here just a few weeks and yet, despite all of my study to date, I have changed my understanding of a couple of verses/passages in the Bible.
Are we not all students? Isn't that what a disciple is? Are we not then supposed to be learning together rather than fighting each other? I am so disappointed with what I have found in this particular forum, I genuinely expected to find many people eager to find and hear Truth but instead each person already has their own truth so yours isn't needed (even if it's THE Truth!).
As regards pre-trib and pre-wrath, personally I have flip-flopped over the years but always with the belief that I couldn't really see what the teachers were teaching when I studied the Word myself. I am most definitely pre-wrath now and have begun steps to prepare for a difficult 42 months both physically and spiritually.
I'm not a Pre-triber but this guy has made the best case for it that I have every heard, based on the Typology of the Jewish Wedding Feast.
I like JD, he really is sincere and he really does love the Lord, that much is evident. He is one of the teachers that I regularly watch even though I disagree with his rapture beliefs. I also don't like that, like so many others, he has a political leaning - politics is of the devil and we should have no part in it including voting. But despite the two "flaws" he is a really good teacher of the Word, his series on the Song of Solomon is truly enlightening.
As far as I understand these are the rapture positions, the video is a bit off
Pretribulation
Belief in a "secret" rapture that takes place before the 70th week in its entirety. Is based off of considering all events in the 70th week to be "the tribulations" and considers the "tribulations" to all be God's wrath, so because we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) they use that to say we won't face any tribulations whatsoever. They differ in most cited rapture passage (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) in that while the verses show the rapture to be a very noisy event, and also connect it to the return of Christ, they want to make a distinction between the rapture and the second coming. Because they associate the second coming with Revelation 19, they think Matthew 24 parallels with Revelation 19 despite them being VERY different. Has only sparse scriptural support namely 2 Thessalonians 2:7 (interpreting the restrainer to be themselves, even though 2 Thessalonians 1-3 creates a contradiction with that interpretation), and Revelation 3:10, again, interpreting themselves to be the Church of Philadelphia (to which I say, Smyrna also did nothing wrong, but Smyrna was martyred). Focus is on a doctrine of imminence, based on the various "thief in the night" verses. Tends to interpret Revelation as being written in entirely Chronological order start to finish. Distinguishes themselves as "the church age" and separates themselves from "tribulation saints" and declares that the tribulations are for Israel, not them.
Midtribulation
Belief that the rapture takes place at the midpoint of the 70th week. I'm not as familiar with their doctrines or why they believe as they do. To be honest, I've never even talked with someone who's midtrib. I just know that it's distinct from pre wrath because it's set at the exact midpoint.
Prewrath
Belief that the rapture takes place after the tribulations, which are acts by men led by the Antichrist, but before the wrath of God, which are the trumpets and vials. Generally see the second coming as an enduring presence rather than 1 single day event, and generally take an imminence position after the abomination of desolation, being the last condition that needs to be fulfilled in their eyes before the rapture can happen. Typically sees Revelation divided up into at least 2 parallel narratives occupying the same time. Paramount to this belief is the separation of tribulation and wrath of God as 2 distinct things, and reconciling that we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), but Matthew 24 is a picture of the rapture and it happens immediately after the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29-31).
Posttribulation
Like pretribulationists, believe that the entire 70th week is "the tribulations" and makes no distinction between tribulations and wrath of God. Believes that instead of rapturing Christians out of earth to protect them from the wrath, that God will protect them ON the earth while the wrath is being poured out. Sees the second coming as 1 single 24 hour day, and it is of paramount importance to them that "the day of the Lord" be treated as a literal 24 hour day. Often sees Revelation as being up to 7 different parallel narratives telling the same thing multiple times in different descriptive language.
I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by the bit I bolded/italicised in the quote. "An enduring presence" ? As in the Day of the Lord or Jesus' return in general? And again with the "imminence position", I don't think that the abomination is the " last thing" before the rapture can happen, the beast has 42 months so it's 42 months then Jesus returns/rapture (if we "survive" which is how perileipomai should be translated in 1 Thessalonians 4:17)
At minute 2:20, the speaker denounces the rationale of the pre-trib rapture. So it is easy to see where he is going. I didn't waste my time watching the rest of the video.
And this is why you learn nothing.. Seriously Doug, how much actual Bible teaching do you get from trained, learned or experienced Bible teachers? I know the above wasn't a trained teacher (I don't think) but what I see in your posts is an arrogance that you have it nailed and everybody else is wrong so what could you learn from them?
Even a broken clock is right twice a day, it's why I occasionally listen to a prosperity gospel teacher or will read Catholic academic papers, I know that I can still learn something because God's Word never returns void.
I know you're a septuagint and I guess that's to be congratulated, but it shouldn't bar you from still being open to learning something new. But first you have to be prepared to accept that you're wrong and I don't see that from you, I see the opposite sadly
The woe and sound of the 7th Trumpet last the whole of Satan's 42 months.
The earth is not destroyed because Jesus leaves earth 3.5 days or so after the 7th Trumpet has already been sounding non-stop. Christ and the 144k leave and only the 2 witnesses are left behind to encourage people to refuse the mark and avoid worship of Satan. They are also thorns to all those who worship Satan. They torment Satan and the FP. That is why the world rejoices at the end of the 42 months. Then those gift giving days turn into the wrath of God with the 7 Vials poured out onto the earth.
Watching Doug and Tim discussing their end-time beliefs is like watching Stephen King and Terry Pratchett discussing the content of a potential joint collaboration or something, completely terrifying but thankfully complete fiction