Changing your mind about prophecy

[Rachel20]

There are not two mass resurrections and judgments separated by a thousand years. The premil doctrine contradicts a great deal of scripture.

I don't know how Revelation 20:5 could be any clearer

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[Steve_K]

The bowls of God's wrath are in the time/times/half time period that Satan will have left on this earth.

While that is going on here on earth. The raptured/resurrected saints in heaven are receiving rewards for their service to Christ, in heaven.

It is on my chart near the middle.
View attachment 289666

I appreciate the effort you put into this chart, but it's confusing and muddled. Any chance you can make a horizontal timeline/chart that's easier to follow?

 

[nolidad]

Hi all. I recently watched a video about a person who had changed his mind regarding his stance on pre-trib rapture. The video made some interesting points about just how difficult it is to change the way we perceive important, spiritual truths, especially when that change requires us to face difficult challenges.

The video is about 12 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think.

This guy is a slick snake oil salesmen . He should be locked up wit Some of the televangelists of the past who tried to shame the name of the Lord with their antics.

He dos not use exegesis, hermeneutics or even rational bible explaining.

He just in his sweet soft tone tells us that if you believe in a pre trib rapture you are deceived and misled and that honest Christians will leave that position. Also I started as an A-mill, went to post trib and then through hard and long Bible Study realized that the rapture will be trib. He also makes some very glaring misstatements in his video.

1. Pre trib is the minority position held by believers. Amil and post trib are 1 and 2 with pre being #3
Pre trib is the most widely published but least accepted.

2. I know lots and lots and lots of pre-tribbers. And I don't know one of them who holds to pre trib because they don't want to suffer! They expect suffering and tribulatioi in this life!
They hold to the pre trib position because they have learned to rightly divide the Word of Truth and not when they see a word- force it to mean the same everytime it appears. Like the word elect!

He doesn't understand the biblically stated purposes for the tribulation- (hint it is not so the church can suffer to show the world Gods love as he says) .When one knows the purposes of the Great Tribulation as stated in Scripture,then one realizes why the church will not and indeed cannot be on the earth!

Yes we must suffer if we are to live godly lives, but that does not mean the 70 th week of Daniel is designed for the church! Paul in Thesselonians even declares so! We are promised to be delivered from teh wrath to come. And wrath is always in end times contexts the tribulation period!

This mans subtle accusations of pre tribbers being tools for the devil and then lumping us in with the wealth and prosperity gospel is a hideous treachery!

If He wants to believe he is going through the trib- that is his privilege, but he should not blame the bible for his belief!

He is more subtle than the Watchtower bible and tract Society for presenting a slick philosophically wooing message. and it is just as factual as most of the JW teachings.

I am willing to stand for my beliefs as those who have engaged me know! But I would not go as far as this guy in implying people are not saved unless they are bearing their sufferings and the other things that should be brought out with the trash!

I would love to engage this guy in a one on one debate and see if he is honest enough to change his erroneous views!

 

[Douggg]

I appreciate the effort you put into this chart, but it's confusing and muddled. Any chance you can make a horizontal timeline/chart that's easier to follow?

The reason the chart is stair stepped and not horizontal is that if a person made a horizontal chart, the information on it would be so small when posted, that no one could read it. Basically, to understand the chart just start in the upper left and follow the red-line critical path of events to the low right when Jesus returns - it will take you right through the 7 years.

Here is a horizontal chart I made of the stages of the great opposer to Jesus, though.

The way the bible is organized, information about the person keeps increasing as new books are added.

Daniel, then John, then 2Thessalonians2, then Revelation.

____________________________________________________________

allow me to quickly show you why my chart cannot be horiztional...

Little horn- leader of the EU, prince who shall come following Gog/Magog, anointed the King of Israel, by

Do you see? I only got through three elements of my chart information before I ran out of room horizontally. Just follow the red line critical path from upper left to lower right and it will take you right through the 7 years.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Sure, because the amillennialist spiritualizes the thousand years, just like John parabolizes the S&G judgement lol

Amillennialists interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that doesn't contradict scripture passages which teach that there is one day that all of the dead will be raised and judged (Acts 17:30-31, John 5:28-29, Matthew 12:36/1 John 4:17, Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46, Acts 24:15, John 6:44/John 12:48, etc.).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Why don't you read the verses before Revelation 20:6?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I have read them many times. What is your point? Just posting the verses doesn't tell me what point you're trying to make. Is it too much to ask what exactly the point is that you are trying to make here? I have no problem reconciling all of Revelation 20 with my view.

 

[Douggg]

I have read them many times. What is your point? Just posting the verses doesn't tell me what point you're trying to make. Is it too much to ask what exactly the point is that you are trying to make here? I have no problem reconciling all of Revelation 20 with my view.

It is obvious that the first resurrection of the 1000 year millennium period is for the martyred great tribulation saints exclusively.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It's not a matter of what must happen, but what will happen. I believe scripture indicates a bodily resurrection is what will happen -

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. Job 19:25-27

For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8:22-23

Yes, a bodily resurrection of all people will happen at the second coming of Christ. I never said there won't be a bodily resurrection. I have a feeling that you don't know much about the amillennialist view. While there will be a bodily resurrection at Christ's second coming, He is coming after the thousand years, not before.

Can you tell me when you think the last day will occur?

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Wouldn't it be the day that God has set to judge the world "by that man whom he hath ordained" (Jesus)? When do you think that day will happen?

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It is obvious that the first resurrection of the 1000 year millennium period is for the martyred great tribulation saints exclusively.

Except that it isn't obvious because that view contradicts a lot of scripture. Scripture does not teach a resurrection of believers at the last trumpet when Christ comes (1 Cor 15:22-23,50-54), followed by another resurrection of believers 7 or so years later, followed by a resurrection of saints who die during the thousand years 1000+ years later (I assume you believe that believers will die during the thousand years?).

How do you reconcile your view with what Jesus said here:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How can you believe that saints will be resurrected on 3 different occasions when this says an hour (not 2 or 3 hours) is coming when all of the dead will be raised?

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus said that everyone who believes in Jesus will be raised on the last day. So, why does your doctrine have believers being raised on 3 different days? Which of your 3 resurrection days is the last day that Jesus talked about?

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Why does this only mention Christ's resurrection and the resurrection of those "that are Christ's at His coming" if there will be 2 other resurrections of believers besides these?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I don't know how Revelation 20:5 could be any clearer

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And I would say that passages like John 5:28-29 couldn't be any clearer that both the righteous and wicked dead will be raised in the same hour that Jesus said is coming. But, you seem to be very selective in which verses you want to base your doctrine on and which verses you apparently want to just set aside because you know you can't reconcile them with your view.

Who do you believe are the rest of the dead and what exactly is the first resurrection and who exactly do you believe have part in the first resurrection?

 

[Douggg]

Except that it isn't obvious because that view contradicts a lot of scripture. Scripture does not teach a resurrection of believers at the last trumpet when Christ comes (1 Cor 15:22-23,50-54), followed by another resurrection of believers 7 or so years later, followed by a resurrection of saints who die during the thousand years 1000+ years later (I assume you believe that believers will die during the thousand years?).

It is obvious, but you have made a multitude of misinterpretations elsewhere - that your interpretations don't line up with it.

You need to work on a timeline chart of the 7 year 70th week that comply's with the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the end times. Put all the major events on your chart that take place during the 7 years, in the right place.

 

[Rachel20]

Can you tell me when you think the last day will occur?

I don't view the last day, or "Day of the LORD" as a 24-hour day. It's a period of time that commences with the signless rapture, which is why it "comes as a thief in the night". It includes the period of persecution for Israel called the "time of Jacobs trouble" in the OT (the Great Trib), the second coming, the S&G judgement, millennium, and the elements melting -

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2 Pe 3:10

 

[Rachel20]

And I would say that passages like John 5:28-29 couldn't be any clearer that both the righteous and wicked dead will be raised in the same hour that Jesus said is coming.

I simply don't see that as a 60-minute hour any more than I see the last day as a 24-hour day. It's strange you hyper-literalize these figures but then spiritualize the thousand years.

Was the "hour" that Christ referred to in Luke 22:53 literally 24 hours? It included many events, each of which lasted more than 24 hours -

When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Second Coming

SECOND COMING, the future return of Christ to the earth. A prominent doctrine of Christology, the predicted Second Advent of Christ is implied in hundreds of OT prophecies of future judgment on the world and a coming kingdom of righteousness on earth and is explicitly detailed in major NT passages. The last book of the Bible, the Revelation of Jesus Christ, refers specifically to His Second Coming itself (ch. 19), and the millennium and future state which follows (20-22).

1. General OT references. The OT presents a mingled prophecy of the first and second advents of Christ (cf. 1 Pet 1:10-12), often combining both comings in the same context (Isa 61:1-3; Luke 4:17-20). The first reference to the Second Coming is found in Deuteronomy 30:3 in the KJV rendering where it is predicted, “Then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.” The RSV obscures this prophecy by paraphrasing the expression “will return” by the tr. “will restore your fortunes.” The “return” results in their regathering to their ancient land and their spiritual and physical restoration. This is typical of OT prophecies of the Second Advent. The OT seldom pictures the Second Coming per se, but often dwells upon the circumstances of the Second Coming, such as the preceding regathering of Israel to the land (Jer 30:3; Amos 9:14, 15), and the results of the Second Coming—the judgment of the nations (Isa 2:4), deliverance of Israel (Jer 31:28), and a kingdom of righteousness and peace on earth (Ps 72:7).

2. Second Coming in the Psalms. The Second Coming of Christ is linked with the moral struggle between God and His creatures. Psalm 2 for instance, after picturing the world’s rejection of the sovereignty of God, declares God’s purpose, “I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill.” In the vv. which follow, the decree of God is stated concerning His purpose to place His Son over the nations, to subdue the nations “with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel” (2:9). On the basis of God’s intention to make His Son the King of the earth, the exhortation to earthly kings is “serve the Lord with fear, with trembling kiss his feet” (2:11). The conclusion is reached “Blessed are all who take refuge in him” (2:12). This psalm is typical of the OT passages relating to the Second Coming. The event itself is assumed, but the results are detailed.

Psalm 24 is another great passage dealing with Christ’s coming as “the King of glory.” The gates of Jerusalem are exhorted to open to this King when He comes. His rule on the earth is based on the promise of Psalm 24:1, “The earth is the Lord’s and the fulness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein.”

Another complete presentation of the Second Coming of Christ and its result is found in Psalm 72, presented in the form of a prayer, but describing the certain results of Christ’s return. His dominion is described as “from sea to sea” (72:8). Kings and nations are described as serving Him (72:11). Psalm 72 ends with the prayer, “May his glory fill the whole earth!” Although in the form of an inspired prayer, it clearly anticipates fulfillment.

Other psalms are similar in character such as Psalm 96 which declares, “The Lord reigns!” (vs. 10), and states “For he comes, for he comes to judge the earth” (vs. 13). The present position of Christ seated at the right hand of the Father in Psalm 110:1, 2 is considered temporary, for the day will come when “the Lord sends forth from Zion your mighty scepter” and “will execute judgment among the nations” (110:2, 6).

3. Second Coming in the Prophets. The major prophets take up the same theme of the coming of the Lord to reign. A familiar text is Isaiah 9:6, 7where it declares, “Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom” (vs. 7). The rule of the Messiah on earth is described in Isaiah 11 as one of complete righteousness and justice, of tranquility in nature, with universal knowledge of the Lord. Isaiah prays for the coming of the Lord (Isa 64:1), “O that thou wouldest rend the heavens and come down, that the mountains might quake at thy presence.” Isaiah’s great prophecy concludes in chs. 65; 66with a description of the reign of Christ on earth and the judgments which relate to it.

Jeremiah speaks of the results of the Lord’s coming when the Son of David “shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land” (Jer 23:5). The judgments and tribulation which precede the Second Coming are followed by the deliverance of Israel according to Jeremiah 30; 31, and many other prophecies in Jeremiah deal with the ultimate triumph of God during the reign of Christ. The presentation of the right to rule over the earth following His Second Coming is described in Daniel 7:13, 14, where the Son of man is given dominion over the entire earth and an everlasting kingdom.

One of the most specific references to the Second Coming in the OT is in Zechariah 14:3-5. The Lord is described as fighting in defense of Israel, and the statement is made, “On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives, which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward.” The revelation goes on to picture that “the Lordwill become king over all the earth; on that day the Lord will be one and his name one” (Zech 14:9).

I read the entirety of your post and commend you for being a Barean and searching the scriptures to see if these things are so. Your answer is long and barely touches the surface of the themes of prophecy that are all related and present a clear before and after picture centering on the single point of the 2nd coming where the night and day differences have taken effect. Great post and the greatest evidence is what the scriptures have to say not some church Father or author.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I simply don't see that as a 60-minute hour any more than I see the last day as a 24-hour day. It's strange you hyper-literalize these figures but then spiritualize the thousand years.

It's strange to me that you take the thousand years literally, but spiritualize the "hour" and "last day" Christ referred to. He certainly never spoke of multiple occasions when the dead would be resurrected and never spoke of multiple judgment days.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It is obvious, but you have made a multitude of misinterpretations elsewhere - that your interpretations don't line up with it.

Okay, sure, Doug.

You need to work on a timeline chart of the 7 year 70th week that comply's with the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework for the end times. Put all the major events on your chart that take place during the 7 years, in the right place.

You need to stop having an Antichrist fulfill the 70th week instead of Jesus Christ. That is a shameful interpretation of the 70th week that Christ fulfilled with His shed blood that established the new covenant. Your timelines and charts are useless since they are completely inaccurate.

 

[Douggg]

Okay, sure, Doug.

You need to stop having an Antichrist fulfill the 70th week instead of Jesus Christ. That is a shameful interpretation of the 70th week that Christ fulfilled with His shed blood that established the new covenant. Your timelines and charts are useless since they are completely inaccurate.

The 70th week will be fulfilled, completed when Jesus returns. The Antichrist will initiate the 70th week, acting as the King of Israel/messiah, but coming in his own name.

The weeks in Daniel 9 are shmettiah (spelled different ways) cycles and have a Jewish connotation.

 

[Rachel20]

It's strange to me that you take the thousand years literally, but spiritualize the "hour" and "last day" Christ referred to.

lol touche !

 

[John Helpher]

He just in his sweet soft tone tells us that if you believe in a pre trib rapture you are deceived and misled and that honest Christians will leave that position.

Heh, I wonder if he would be flattered that you think he has a sweet, soft voice. It is more likely than not that pre-tribbers are deceived. I don't think that necessarily makes them bad people for it. I myself believed in pre-trib as I was growing up. I never realized there was an alternative position to it.

I didn't know much about prophecy at all. Then, I was encouraged to study the teachings of Jesus and discovered the most fundamental key to understanding prophecy; it's all about Jesus. The opening line states this clearly and yet I never really saw it; "The Revelation of Jesus Christ...".

Everything about prophecy is meant to reveal more of Jesus. I believe that is the case when it comes to the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:11 says the Beast is overcome by those who did not love their lives even unto death and by their testimony. These people were not afraid of tribulation. They did not view tribulation as wrath, but rather as something that needs to be overcome.

Perhaps there are some pre-tribbers out there who are genuine, in that they believe they will be raptured before the Great Tribulation, but still, in their hearts, they are prepared to suffer for their faith, but if so, they are very rare.

The pre-tribbers I talk to say they have no need to prepare for the Great Tribulation; they have no need to reject the mark or prepare for a time when they will not be able to buy or sell. They usually go the opposite way; they claim that anyone left behind is evil. Pre-tribbers tend to think of themselves as better than they really are; they are above tribulation. Yes, they give lip service to the concept; they know they're supposed to say they are willing to suffer for their faith, but really, they believe they are too righteous for that; they will be whisked up to Heaven before any such trial befalls them.

I believe this is why Jesus talked about people who will say he returned secretly to the desert or that he can be found in some secret chamber. It paints a picture of people who are panicking; they believed Jesus should have returned before all the trouble started and, rather than accept their mistake, they stubbornly create these alternative narratives about a secret return, to justify themselves.

I don't want to put people down. I believe pre-trib is a wrong understanding of prophecy but it's not sinful to have a wrong understanding. The problem is that this particular belief encourages people not to be prepared because they believe they will not be around anyway.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The 70th week will be fulfilled, completed when Jesus returns. The Antichrist will initiate the 70th week, acting as the King of Israel/messiah, but coming in his own name.

The weeks in Daniel 9 are shmettiah (spelled different ways) cycles and have a Jewish connotation.

Nope. That's a fairy tale that can't be supported by scripture. The one who confirms the covenant is clearly referring to the Messiah, who was the last individual who was focused on before Daniel 9:27. And, it's clear that Jesus fulfilled everything listed in Daniel 9:24 long ago.