Changing your mind about prophecy

[John Helpher]

Hi all. I recently watched a video about a person who had changed his mind regarding his stance on pre-trib rapture. The video made some interesting points about just how difficult it is to change the way we perceive important, spiritual truths, especially when that change requires us to face difficult challenges.

The video is about 12 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think.

 

[James Honigman]

Hi John. I did not watch the video, but I do know what the Holy Bible says. At the end there will be two tribulations for mankind. The final one is the wrath of God being poured out on the earth, particularly on those who received Satan's mark in their right hand or in their foreheads, which is the first tribulation: Satan's overwhelming deception of mankind.

 

[John Helpher]

At the end there will be two tribulations for mankind. The final one is the wrath of God being poured out on the earth,

Hi James, thanks for your response. I think there is often a lot of confusion about the difference between tribulation and wrath, so that people get the idea they are interchangeable or happen at the same time. I don't know if that's what you mean, but I really liked a concept illustrated in the video where the author says that suffering for our faith is just a part of what it means to stand up for righteousness.

The Great Tribulation is not a punishment in the same way that the wrath will be; a time of great discipline, yes, and maybe it could even bee seen, in some way, as a punishment, in the sense of correction, but tribulation is not wrath.

The video summed it up nicely toward the end; do we really have something worth dying for?

 

[BobRyan]

Hi all. I recently watched a video about a person who had changed his mind regarding his stance on pre-trib rapture. The video made some interesting points about just how difficult it is to change the way we perceive important, spiritual truths, especially when that change requires us to face difficult challenges.

The video is about 9 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think.

The video gets may details correct even if a few are not quite right.

Matt 24:29-31 "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

What are the saints doing 'in the sky" ? well 1 Thess 4:13-18 says they are raptured there when Christ appears

John 16:33 These things I have spoken to you so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”


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Very good video. There are entire denominations that have the rapture taking place post-trib.. for example I belong to one that Christianity Today calls the 5th largest and fastest growing Christian denomination in the world. So it is not as though this message is not getting out one way or another. I thank you for posting that video it will do a lot of good.

 

[JulieB67]

Yes, I changed my views from pretrib (something I was "taught" growing up} to post trib about 20 years ago when I finally started to study on my own.

And yes, it is at times very hard for some to unlearn what has been indoctrinated over time. I went in with a completely open mind wanting to learn truth, no matter what that truth is and accept the love of the truth. And the truth was easy to see about the timing. Christ lays it out perfectly with Paul as another great witness.

 

[Devin Hammond]

The pretribulation rapture theory is a hoax and cannot be found anywhere in scripture or church history. The creeds also mention only one return of Jesus Christ at the end of the age.

 

[Devin Hammond]

John 6:39-40 says that the dead are raised on the last day as also does John 6:54.

 

[John Helpher]

Thanks for those kind words, Bob.

There are entire denominations that have the rapture taking place post-trib.. for example I belong to one that Christianity Today calls the 5th largest and fastest growing Christian denomination in the world.

That's interesting. Hopefully we can keep encouraging one another to face tribulation with a the spirit of a sound mind.

 

[John Helpher]

John 6:39-40 says that the dead are raised on the last day as also does John 6:54.

Hi Devin. I'm not sure if I get your meaning. Would you mind elaborating?

 

[Devin Hammond]

Thanks for those kind words, Ryan.



That's interesting. Hopefully we can keep encouraging one another to face tribulation with a the spirit of a sound mind.

The majority of Christian Churches do not believe in a pretribulation rapture. That would include Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Methodist, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Reformed, etc.

 

[Devin Hammond]

Hi Devin. I'm not sure if I get your meaning. Would you mind elaborating?

The dead rise prior to the “catching away”.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

If the dead rise on the last day when Jesus returns it is obvious then that the rapture doesn’t happen until the second coming on the last day.

Also, it is clear that Paul is describing the second coming in the Thessalonians passage because he states that, “the Lord descends from heaven”.

 

[John Helpher]

And yes, it is at times very hard for some to unlearn what has been indoctrinated over time. I went in with a completely open mind wanting to learn truth, no matter what that truth is and accept the love of the truth.

I grew up believing the pre-trib theory. It sounded quite wonderful. My church believed it. My family believed it and I don't remember ever hearing any arguments to the contrary which would suggest there was any controversy.

Then, when I left home I started hearing alternative points of view and the post-trib argument sounded quite fascinating. I don't remember feeling much turmoil about it as the arguments made sense; if Christ suffered for his faith, then it makes sense that we'd also need to suffer for our faith.

 

[WonbyOneanddone]

In all fairness, the Messiah was said to only come once in the OT, but he is coming twice from a NT teaching. Could it be three times?

I dunno. What I do know is, there will be a great round up and execution of those not taking the mark.

 

[Devin Hammond]

In all fairness, the Messiah was said to only come once in the OT, but he is coming twice from a NT teaching. Could it be three times?

I dunno. What I do know is, there will be a great round up and execution of those not taking the mark.

No. Jesus doesn’t come three times. That’s lunacy. The historical church never taught that doctrine.

 

[WonbyOneanddone]

No. Jesus doesn’t come three times. That’s lunacy. The historical church never taught that doctrine.

My point being is that in the OT it never said he comes two times, which is why many Jews reject Jesus as Messiah.

Maybe it is the same with the NT.

Not saying he will, just saying we often think we know more than we do.

 

[John Helpher]

In all fairness, the Messiah was said to only come once in the OT, but he is coming twice from a NT teaching. Could it be three times?

The OT doesn't say he will only come once. It just predicts his coming; at that time there was no issue about whether it would be once or twice or whatever. During his ministry, he talked extensively about how he'd go away and then return again.

 

[Devin Hammond]

My point being is that in the OT it never said he comes two times, which is why many Jews reject Jesus as Messiah.

Maybe it is the same with the NT.

Not saying he will, just saying we often think we know more than we do.

No, you’re wrong there are OT prophecies concerning the second coming.

 

[WonbyOneanddone]

The OT doesn't say he will only come once. It just predicts his coming; at that time there was no issue about whether it would be once or twice or whatever. During his ministry, he talked extensively about how he'd go away and then return again.

And the NT talks about his coming again as well, just like the OT did.

We then assume we know the rest of the details.

 

[John Helpher]

And the NT talks about his coming again as well, just like the OT did.

Sorry, but would you mind posting the OT prophecy which describes his second coming?

 

[WonbyOneanddone]

No, you’re wrong there are OT prophecies concerning the second coming.

There are, but in those prophesies do they say fulfillment on his first coming or second? No.

In fact, many Jews reject Jesus because he did not fulfill all the Messianic prophesies.