Changing your mind about prophecy

[FredVB]

Theories of which one city is depicted have been out for a very long time, that those holding to one claim that to be the truth. Look at the exploitation shown to characterize Mystery Babylon, in Revelation 18. Is that the history of your city? Believers in Mystery Babylon fail to look at that, while observing what some say of their theory of which one city is Mystery Babylon. Doom coming to it is certain, they should look at their city, see the exploitation is not right, with harm to the world growing, and get out from that. Moving to another city is not meant, get out and live independently from cities of civilization. Do not wait for the last minute when it is clear as ever you need to get out from where believers should not be staying. Believers should do what they can to get out right away, now.

There is nowhere to go from the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.
That Day will affect everyone the whole world over. Luke 21:34-36 We must pray for the strength to pass safely thru it.

Babylon is a metaphor for every ungodly city and nation. Which is all of them. When the worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal event strikes, things will be very different. All as Prophesied.

Regarding a timeline or the sequence of future events, we are all under a Spirit of blindness and deafness. Only as things happen, will understanding come. Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 29:18, Isaiah 32:3-4

Believers who are in Christ who bore all for the just judgment for their sins are not subject for their sins, though they won't be taken out from the world to spare them of worsening conditions to it that they were involved in, when God gave responsibility for good stewardship to us. God will take those who are his, the believers who are in Christ, out from the world to be with him, before God's judgment which will come in the end does really come. Babylon of course is a metaphor, Babylon fell a long time ago, before books of the new testament were even written. But there is description with important metaphors like that, and the descriptions are not all metaphorical, so we can understand. Revelation 11:18 shows God's judgment should come on those who are destroying this earth. That all this system that is destructive to this earth collapses itself from its nonsustainability in this world as it grows more unstable, and falls, does not need God's doing, but God does not need to help it. Believers generally of this time are really too materialistic. They are not seeing the need to separate from it all. The collapse can come soon. Instability of civilization as the world is becoming ruined will lead to its great collapse, and its nonsustainability continues still. Only those separate from it independently with growing things where they are that are needed for their food and materials will have the needed sustainability from them. Why should they stay with all this where they can't continue? Civilization is showing all its urban presence is Mystery Babylon that is described.

Climate change could lead to civilization collapse

Climate change could lead to civilization collapse • Earth.com

www.earth.com

Well Revelation 18:2 says Babylon is fallen and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. This would have to include those in 2 Peter 2:4 where there are angels that sinned which were not spared but cast down into hell. So either Babylon falls into hell or the angels in hell, which were reserved unto judgment, come into Babylon.

How do you see this? Is Babylon in hell or is hell opened and the angels allowed to go into Babylon? Keep in mind that Revelation 18:4 says “come out of her my people” and this command is said after the fall of Babylon in verse 2.

One other question I have; what constitutes a city? From the 2020 census in the USA there are some very small cities.

McMullen Alabama, population 9
Bettles Alaska, population 12
Gilbert Arkansas, population 26
Vernon California, population 110

And how about Carbonate Colorado, population 0. Property owners in this area voted to have Carbonate continue as an incorporated town with hopes of restoring interest and having people move there someday.

If I were to leave the city I currently live in I certainly wouldn’t want to move into another Babylon, so how would a person know ahead of time if they were moving into another Babylon?

Of course the book of Revelation is full of metaphors. But there is description that is not to be dismissed as metaphors, while even metaphors must be understood for what they would mean rather than be dismissed. There would be wildlife coming and inhabiting urbanized places that are not supporting human inhabitants who have died or have abandoned those places. Those who die there may well go to where there are inhabitants of their places in hell.

Cities as mentioned is about developed and populated urban areas, that take so much resources, of course, not just anything called a city when it actually is not any of that.

But moving to another city is not getting out from Mystery Babylon, we should not be living in cities.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi all. I recently watched a video about a person who had changed his mind regarding his stance on pre-trib rapture. The video made some interesting points about just how difficult it is to change the way we perceive important, spiritual truths, especially when that change requires us to face difficult challenges.

The video is about 12 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think.

Matt 24 makes it very clear that the rapture happens immediately AFTER the tribulation - point blank.

Matt 24:29-31
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

And of course 100's of millions of Christians have been slain in brutal tribulation since the book of Matthew was written

So then a pre-trib rapture idea has to engage in a lot creativity to get around the explicit statement in that text and the facts of history.

Which is not a problem to overcome given a strong enough preference and tradition.

in any case I appreciate the video in the OP. Even though it too appears to get even the post trib position wrong by placing it before Rev 16 (seven last plagues) instead of at the "First resurrection" in Rev 19-20 at the appearing of Christ. (I was surprised to see that they tend to go that direction in the video - unless I misunderstood what they said)

 

[DavidPT]

Matt 24 makes it very clear that the rapture happens immediately AFTER the tribulation - point blank.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Apparently, this is meaning immediately after tribulation. And that this precedes the coming recorded in verse 27. Personally, I tend to think this is where the vials of wrath likely fit. And if so, the fact repenting appears to still be an option, though they don't repent, this indicates the vials of wrath precede His return, at least meaning the first 6 vials do. This still places the rapture after great tribulation, just not immediately after, though.


Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


For example. If this is meaning after great tribulation, thus is meaning during what Luke 21:25-26 is involving, I can't picture Christ having already bodily returned at this point, based on what Revelation 16:11 records---and repented not of their deeds. Which obviously means repenting is still an option at this point, otherwise why even mention they repented not of their deeds? And since repenting is still an option during the 5th vial, it makes zero sense that Christ has already returned at this point. Therefore, not even a Prewrath rapture is Biblical, let alone a Pretrib rapture. Unless one wants to argue that it is reasonable that after Christ has returned, that repenting is still an option. Or that if one wants to argue that the vials of wrath are meaning during great tribulation rather than after.

Clearly, post trib is the correct rapture view. I'm just not convinced the rapture occurs immediately after great tribulation. But I do agree it occurs after it, and the reasons I disagree that it is immediately after, well I provided reasons for that.

 

[keras]

Apparently, this is meaning immediately after tribulation.

Luke 21:25-26 refers to the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Proved by the cosmic signs.

Clearly, post trib is the correct rapture view

Jesus gathers His own People when He Returns. Matthew 24:31
This is not a 'rapture to heaven', but a transportation; from where the people are to where He is going to: Jerusalem.

 

[DavidPT]

Luke 21:25-26 refers to the forthcoming Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Proved by the cosmic signs.

I agree. And it is also meaning verse 29 in Matthew 24 being why I brought it up.

Jesus gathers His own People when He Returns. Matthew 24:31
This is not a 'rapture to heaven', but a transportation; from where the people are to where He is going to: Jerusalem.

We are in agreement here as well since I too disagree that there is a rapture to heaven where Jesus is currently dwelling.

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Apparently, this is meaning immediately after tribulation. And that this precedes the coming recorded in verse 27.

Yes that is what the text says in Luke 21 and in Matt 24

Personally, I tend to think this is where the vials of wrath likely fit.

The text has Jesus appearing at that point so if you think that Rev 16 vials of wrath (seven last plague) are happening right in the middle of the Rev 19 appearing of Christ event then that is one thing with details to work out.

But in Matt 24 and Luke 21 it appears that the appearing of Christ is what follows the signs (which follow tribulation) - not plagues.

Post-trib rapture with the appearing of Christ as seen in Rev 19 solves a lot of problems if you consider all the related elements

 

[keras]

Post-trib rapture with the appearing of Christ as seen in Rev 19 solves a lot of problems if you consider all the related elements

But those who have already decided what they want God to do for them, have great difficulty in comprehending the truths.
Looking at Revelation 12:14, we see that a group of the Lord's faithful people are taken to a place if safety for the 1260 days of world Satanic control.
It will be them, mainly; who the angels will gather and bring back to Jesus. Matthew 24:31 A horizontal transportation, as what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Post-trib rapture with the appearing of Christ as seen in Rev 19 solves a lot of problems if you consider all the related elements

But those who have already decided what they want God to do for them, have great difficulty in comprehending the truths.
Looking at Revelation 12:14, we see that a group of the Lord's faithful people are taken to a place if safety for the 1260 days

IN Dan 9 we find that the Bible uses day-for-year interpretation of apocalyptic timelines -
so then the 70 weeks of Dan 9 are 490 apocalyptic days -- which is 490 solar years.
That means in Dan 7 the 1260 days there are 1260 solar years (times time and 1/2 time = 1260 apocalyptic days)
That means the 1260 days of Rev 11 are the same 1260 years
That means the 1260 days of Rev 12 are the same 1260 years
That means the 1260 days of Rev 13 are the same 1260 years

No single human lives for 1260 years - so then Rev 12 is talking about the dark ages and the earth that swallows up the water - is symbolism that speaks of saints fleeing flood waters (fleeing war and persecution) - going to the New World ("America"s) to find religious freedom.

=========================

But back to the point of this thread

"Immediately AFTER the tribulation... send forth His angels to gather his elect..from one end of the SKY to the other" Matt 24:19-31

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Apparently, this is meaning immediately after tribulation. And that this precedes the coming recorded in verse 27. Personally, I tend to think this is where the vials of wrath likely fit. And if so, the fact repenting appears to still be an option, though they don't repent, this indicates the vials of wrath precede His return, at least meaning the first 6 vials do. This still places the rapture after great tribulation, just not immediately after, though.


Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


For example. If this is meaning after great tribulation, thus is meaning during what Luke 21:25-26 is involving, I can't picture Christ having already bodily returned at this point, based on what Revelation 16:11 records---and repented not of their deeds.

Agreed.

Christ is not on Earth during the 7 last plagues of Rev 16.
He was also not on Earth during the 1260 years of dark-ages persecution in Rev 12.
And He was not on Earth in the 1800's and 1900's when tens of millions of Christians were killed.

Still it could be rightly said that the plagues of Rev 16 are in many ways part of that tribulation for all mankind.

So then we would expect that at the end of the plagues there are signs in the heavens and Christ appears to all the people of Earth as Matt 24 says... and raptures the saints as Matt 24 says.

Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 all record the great apocalyptic summary that Christ gives the disciples for how that 2000 years of future history would play out. The Gospel of John does not have that account at all - because John had already written and entire book on that subject - the book of Revelation - before he wrote the Gospel of John.

That means we need to look for pieces of Matt 24 in the book of Revelation to find where they fit in.

Clearly the end sequence in Matt 24 - the rapture that happens after the tribulation is the big huge finish point in Revelation -- which is chapter 19. Beyond that is the millennium and other events that are all beyond what Christ describes in Matt 24.

So when you see angels gathering the saints "from one end of the sky to the other" in Matt 24 - you are seeing Rev 19 - 20:5 "the first resurrection" that happens just as 1 Thess 4:13-18 says it will happen.

 

[Douggg]

That means we need to look for pieces of Matt 24 in the book of Revelation to find where they fit in.

Bob, the rapture is coupled with the resurrection of the dead in Christ in 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

And in 1Thessalonians5:9-11 to happen before the beginning of the Day of the Lord (unexpectedly, like a thief in the night) and the wrath of God takes place. The world will be saying peace and safety at that time, but it will be suddenly shattered.

In your opinion, when do you think the Day of the Lord will begin ?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, the rapture is coupled with the resurrection of the dead in Christ in 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

Agreed.

1 Thess 4:13-18 is describing the rapture
So is Matt 24:29-31 where the saints are gathered "from one end of the sky to the other"

And in 1Thessalonians5:9-11 to happen before the beginning of the Day of the Lord

1 Thess 5 does not mention the rapture specific ally but it does mention "the day of the Lord" which is the event at which the rapture takes place since as Matt 24 tells it is that one event where both the resurrection and the appearing of Christ take place.

1 Thess 5:​

Now as to the periods and times, brothers and sisters, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord is coming just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction will come upon them like labor pains upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness, so that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then, let’s not sleep as others do, but let’s be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who are drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let’s be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore, encourage one another and build one another up, just as you also are doing.​

1 Thess 5 does not tell us what happens before or after that event -- but 1 Thess 4 tells us what happens during that event. The 1 Thess 5 warns us to be ready for it.

1 Peter 1:13 tells the entire church to focus on that one thing "the revelation of Jesus Christ" -- which is the day of the Lord.

13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ​

1 Thess 4:

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.​

In your opinion, when do you think the Day of the Lord will begin ?

It begins when Christ appears in Matt 24:30-31

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

 

[Douggg]

9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore, encourage one another and build one another up, just as you also are doing.
1 Thess 5 does not tell us what happens before or after that event -- but 1 Thess 4 tells us what happens during that event. The 1 Thess 5 warns us to be ready for it.

Bob, in 1Thessalonians5:9-11 is the rapture/resurrection. Salvation is two part; (1) redemption of the soul when we embrace Jesus, (2) redemption of the body.... i.e. the rapture/resurrection.

In verse 10, "whether we are awake or asleep" is a referral to the rapture/resurrection of the living and dead in Christ. Verse 11, the encourage one another, is the same as the comfort one another in 1Thesssalonian4:18.

It begins when Christ appears in Matt 24:30-31
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

The beginning of the Day of the Lord, when the sudden destruction comes upon them that are saying peace and safety - cannot be at the end of the great tribulation - because no-one will be saying peace and safety at that time.

The peace and safety will be the delusion of a false messianic age of the Antichrist when the Jews first embrace him, thinking he is the messiah. The sudden destruction comes when he goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

The gathering of the elect in verse 31 is referring to bringing all the house of Israel back to the land of Israel. It is a repeat of the saying in Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

 

[keras]

1 Thess 4:13-18 is describing the rapture

That prophecy describes the glorious return and how the Lord will gather His people to Him, for the Millennium. Matthew 24:30-31

While they are saying: Peace and Safety:

This prophecy in 1 Thessalonians 5:3, goes on to tell us: then, sudden destruction will come upon them.

So we need to find out who are those who will say; ‘At last we have peace and safety’, and who the sudden destruction will fall upon.

We can be sure this is about the latter days, as it refers to the prophecy in Matthew 24:8 All these things are the birth pangs of the new age.

We also know that it will happen before Jesus Returns, as Paul tells us in 1Thessalonians 4:16 The Lord will come from heaven with a shout; the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God.

Whereas at this sudden destruction, before the Return: He will come unexpectedly.

This event is obviously the multi prophesied Day of the Lord’s fiery wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. The Lord will not be seen on that Day. Amos 1, Psalms 11:4-6



The focal point of God’s Plan on earth, is the holy Land, the place His eyes are fixed upon. Deuteronomy 11:11-12

The situation there has been extremely volatile for many years, but just recently there has been a change, with the United Arab Emirates normalizing relations with the Jewish State of Israel. Also many other Middle East nations are overtly [instead of covertly] in diplomatic and trade discussions with Israel.

This considerable improvement toward stability and peace in the region, has resulted in many comments of optimism and hope for peace and safety at last for Israel and the Islamic peoples. Those diplomats and commentators are the first ‘they’.

EXCEPT for Iran and their proxies. Their Shi-ite version of Islam remains committed to the destruction of the Jewish people and the removal of Israel from the Middle East. They now have nukes and the means to deliver them to israel.

We see many prophecies which say how the Lord will destroy His enemies, Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12 and Revelation 6:12-17, are the most specific. They all say that the Lord will take action when an attack upon Israel is commenced. He will not allow nukes to explode in His holy Land.



Therefore, ‘them’, are the peoples who hate Israel and attempt to wipe them off the map.

It WILL happen, God’s Word prophesies it and Satan is the force behind Islam, plus the leaders of Iran are facing revolution for their mismanagement and incompetence. They must act to retain power by diverting attention from themselves.

 

[DavidPT]

The beginning of the Day of the Lord, when the sudden destruction comes upon them that are saying peace and safety - cannot be at the end of the great tribulation - because no-one will be saying peace and safety at that time.

The peace and safety will be the delusion of a false messianic age of the Antichrist when the Jews first embrace him, thinking he is the messiah. The sudden destruction comes when he goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

The gathering of the elect in verse 31 is referring to bringing all the house of Israel back to the land of Israel. It is a repeat of the saying in Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Douggg, great tribulation is wrath upon the church not wrath upon anyone worshiping the beast. Wrath upon those worshiping the beast, meaning the day of the Lord, comes after great tribulation, not before or during tribulation.

Picture the following scenarios happening during great tribulation, meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast.

A) and all the world wondered after the beast(Revelation 13:3)

B) and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?(Revelation 13:4)

C) And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast

1) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them(Revelation 13:7)

2) And cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:15)

3)that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name(Revelation 13:15)


How can anyone possibly think the wrath of God, the day of the Lord, is happening during the time of A) B) C) 1) 2) 3)?

Does this sound like the wrath of God, the day of the Lord, is in progress at the time? Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Does this sound like the wrath of God, the day of the Lord, is in progress at the time? And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them----that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed

How can anyone possibly think those per A) B) C) experience great tribulation in the same manner as those per 1) 2) 3)?

How can anyone possibly think those per A) B) C) are not saying peace and safety at the time, the fact what is happening to those per 1) 2) 3) is not also happening to them?

Where in Revelation 13 does it ever depict or even hint, that those worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign, that wrath is being poured out on them during this 42 months? Point out which verse or verses in chapter 13 support that. Obviously, wrath is being poured out during it's 42 month reign, but not on those worshiping the beast, but on those not worshiping the beast.

And I have said this in the past. From the perspective of those worshiping the beast, compared to those that refuse to worship the beast, it would be a time of peace and safety for them compared to what is happening to those that refuse to worship the beast. And once again, God's wrath is not during great tribulation, it is after great tribulation.

While I might not be able to change your mind about any of this, nor change the mind of anyone else who, unlike you, insists Matthew 24:15-21 is involving the first century and 70 AD, maybe there might be others who are undecided about these things and are not letting doctrinal bias stand in their way like some of the rest of you are doing here. Therefore, maybe they can be truly objective about this since doctrinal bias is not preventing them from doing that like it is with some of the rest of you.

 

[Douggg]

Obviously, wrath is being poured out during it's 42 month reign, but not on those worshiping the beast, but on those not worshiping the beast.

Christians are not appointed to God's wrath.

1Thessalonians1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Differently, persons who take the mark and worship the beast will be subject to God's wrath.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

---------------------------------------------------------

The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is standing in the holy place. Matthew 24:15.

Th great tribulation then lasts 1335 days, Daniel 12:11-12, to be ended when Jesus returns. The 7 vials of God's wrath will be poured out during those 1335 days, in the sequence given in Revelation 16.

 

[Douggg]

So we need to find out who are those who will say; ‘At last we have peace and safety’, and who the sudden destruction will fall upon.

I did not see the answer to that question in your post. Israel right now is suffering muslim terrorist attacks, so it can't be them. And they have enemies round about.

For them to say peace and safety at last - it will be after Gog/Magog.

 

[keras]

I did not see the answer to that question in your post. Israel right now is suffering muslim terrorist attacks, so it can't be them. And they have enemies round about.

For them to say peace and safety at last - it will be after Gog/Magog.

The G/M attack comes onto a people living in all of the holy Land, without any defences. Ezekiel 38:8 So it cannot be the current inhabitants there now, who will be attacked by Gog and his vast horde.
They will be all the Christian peoples, from every tribe, race, nation and language, who will be trusting in the Lord for their protection and He delivers it!

I believe there will be 'Peace and safety' soon. Iran will likely agree to cease nuke and missile manufacture, in return for the lifting of the crippling sanctions. They will, of course; just be telling lies and will commence their attack at the Appointed time. Habakkuk 2:3

 

[Douggg]

I believe there will be 'Peace and safety' soon. Iran will likely agree to cease nuke and missile manufacture, in return for the lifting of the crippling sanctions. They will, of course; just be telling lies and will commence their attack at the Appointed time. Habakkuk 2:3

So you think it is just the Jews, Israel, saying Peace and Safety ? While I think it will be the whole world saying peace and safety thinking it has entered the messianic age.

 

[keras]

So you think it is just the Jews, Israel, saying Peace and Safety ? While I think it will be the whole world saying peace and safety thinking it has entered the messianic age.

Yes; the Jewish State of Israel would be relieved with a good agreement for Iran to relinquish their nuke program. So will all the world.
The worldly peoples have no clue about any Messianic age. Neither do most Christians , either!

 

[DavidPT]

Yes that is what the text says in Luke 21 and in Matt 24


The text has Jesus appearing at that point so if you think that Rev 16 vials of wrath (seven last plague) are happening right in the middle of the Rev 19 appearing of Christ event then that is one thing with details to work out.

But in Matt 24 and Luke 21 it appears that the appearing of Christ is what follows the signs (which follow tribulation) - not plagues.

Post-trib rapture with the appearing of Christ as seen in Rev 19 solves a lot of problems if you consider all the related elements

All I am proposing is this since the text never says Christ's 2nd coming occurs immediately after the trib of those days.

This is what the text says.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


There is no mention of the 2nd coming yet. That is in verse 30. Which then means to me, the fact verse 29 indicates shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, that all of this even if it is not meaning in a literal sense, depicts darkness, one of the things the day of the Lord involves, darkness. And that the vials of wrath are pertaining to the day of the Lord. Which means the first vial is poured out after the trib of those days but prior to the coming recorded in verse 30. And the same for the remaining 6 vials. Which then means the coming in verse 30 occurs during or after vial 7.

One reason I conclude that, vials 4 and 5 indicate they repented not, where I don't see it making sense that repenting could still be an option after Christ has already returned. Another reason I conclude that, if the vials of wrath dont fit during the 6th seal, meaning what verse 29 is involving, we then have no choice but to place the time of the vials during great tribulation since that is what is preceding the time of the 6th seal. Except great tribulation is wrath upon the church, not God's wrath upon those worshiping the beast. No way do the vials of wrath fit prior to verse 29, IMO anyway.