Changing your mind about prophecy

[DavidPT]

Christians are not appointed to God's wrath.

1Thessalonians1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Differently, persons who take the mark and worship the beast will be subject to God's wrath.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

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The great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is standing in the holy place. Matthew 24:15.

Th great tribulation then lasts 1335 days, Daniel 12:11-12, to be ended when Jesus returns. The 7 vials of God's wrath will be poured out during those 1335 days, in the sequence given in Revelation 16.

Explain how, that if Christians are still here when the vials of wrath are being poured out, that any of the vials can be affecting them? Does not per the first vial, for example, indicate that it is poured out on those worshiping his image, that have his mark? Even if Christians are still present, the text never says the vials are poured out on every single person alive on the planet at the time. It says it is poured out on those worshiping the beast.

Question, as to this alleged Pretrib rapture you believe in, will infants also get raptured, and also children up to a certain age? What about any children born after the alleged Pretrib rapture, does this mean the vials get poured out on them as well since they are alive during the time of the vials? If no, why not? In order for the vials to not get poured on Christians, it requires that Christians have to literally be removed from the planet first. But in the case of infants born after this alleged Pretrib rapture, it doesn't require that they too need to be physically removed from the planet in order to not be affected by any of the vials?


As to the first vial, for example. It is not required that everyone who this vial is not meant for, that they have to literally leave the planet first before this vial can get poured out on those it is intended for, the fact the text never says it is intended for every single person on the planet. Which then raises another question. These unbelieving Jews that become Christians during Great tribulation after the church is allegedly removed first, and that if any of these Jews that become Christians are still alive when the first vial is poured out. What protects them from the vials of wrath? Can't be their removal from the planet being what protects them the fact you already have that removal being before they are saved, not after they are saved.

Instead of you trying to rationally explain any of these things I bring up here, let's just pretend I never brought any of those things up to begin with. That way you don't have to deal with any of these things and can keep on pretending that a Pretrib rapture is Biblical.

 

[BobRyan]

All I am proposing is this since the text never says Christ's 2nd coming occurs immediately after the trib of those days.

This is what the text says.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


There is no mention of the 2nd coming yet. That is in verse 30.

I agree that the signs in sun, moon and stars happens in vs 29 before the vs 30 appearing of Christ. But all of that appears to be after the great tribulation in vs 29 because it says "after the tribulation" and what follows is
1. The signs in the sky - vs 29 (which could be very very brief - if literal)
2. the appearing of Christ vs 30 (literal)
3. the rapture of the saints vs 31 (literal)

Which then means to me, the fact verse 29 indicates shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, that all of this even if it is not meaning in a literal sense, depicts darkness

Well given that the appearing of Christ in vs 30 is literal and the rapture of the saints in vs 31 is literal it is a least reasonable to allow for the signs in the heavens to be in some sense literal even if the stars are more like what we call shooting stars or "falling stars".

, one of the things the day of the Lord involves, darkness. And that the vials of wrath are pertaining to the day of the Lord. Which means the first vial is poured out after the trib of those days but prior to the coming recorded in verse 30.

Another option here is that the great tribulation ends with - and therefore includes the 7 vials.

One reason I conclude that, vials 4 and 5 indicate they repented not, where I don't see it making sense that repenting could still be an option after Christ has already returned.

Agreed - but that is part of the "ending of the tribulation" which is the start point of vs 29 --- which is before the appearing of Christ.

we then have no choice but to place the time of the vials during great tribulation

Agreed that conclusion above is what I have been saying

great tribulation is wrath upon the church, not God's wrath upon those worshiping the beast

Tribulation in Rev 12 is Satan's wrath against the church - but tribulation in general is a difficult stressful time for humanity and the 7 plagues of Rev 16 certainly qualify.

In Rev 14 we are told that at the end there are only two groups.

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

In one group you have the saints - those who keep their faith in Jesus.
In the other group you have those who worship the beast.

Rev 16 says that the plagues fall on those who persecute the church

4 Then the third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying, “Righteous are You, the One who is and who was, O Holy One, because You judged these things; 6 for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it.”​

the great tribulation includes the plagues - because it is a "time of trouble such as never was on planet Earth"

Dan 12:1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.​

The deliverance of the saints comes in the form of the appearing of Christ in Matt 24 and Rev 19

 

[Douggg]

Explain how, that if Christians are still here when the vials of wrath are being poured out, that any of the vials can be affecting them? Does not per the first vial, for example, indicate that it is poured out on those worshiping his image, that have his mark? Even if Christians are still present, the text never says the vials are poured out on every single person alive on the planet at the time. It says it is poured out on those worshiping the beast.

Question, as to this alleged Pretrib rapture you believe in, will infants also get raptured, and also children up to a certain age? What about any children born after the alleged Pretrib rapture, does this mean the vials get poured out on them as well since they are alive during the time of the vials? If no, why not? In order for the vials to not get poured on Christians, it requires that Christians have to literally be removed from the planet first. But in the case of infants born after this alleged Pretrib rapture, it doesn't require that they too need to be physically removed from the planet in order to not be affected by any of the vials?


As to the first vial, for example. It is not required that everyone who this vial is not meant for, that they have to literally leave the planet first before this vial can get poured out on those it is intended for, the fact the text never says it is intended for every single person on the planet. Which then raises another question. These unbelieving Jews that become Christians during Great tribulation after the church is allegedly removed first, and that if any of these Jews that become Christians are still alive when the first vial is poured out. What protects them from the vials of wrath? Can't be their removal from the planet being what protects them the fact you already have that removal being before they are saved, not after they are saved.

Instead of you trying to rationally explain any of these things I bring up here, let's just pretend I never brought any of those things up to begin with. That way you don't have to deal with any of these things and can keep on pretending that a Pretrib rapture is Biblical.

Jesus said in Matthew 24 regarding the great tribulation, that if not shortened (cut short of it's ultimate result) no flesh on earth will be saved (survive). i.e. all life on earth would die.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[DavidPT]

the great tribulation includes the plagues - because it is a "time of trouble such as never was on planet Earth"

Dan 12:1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.​

The deliverance of the saints comes in the form of the appearing of Christ in Matt 24 and Rev 19

How are you factoring in Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast? Do you, like some of the rest of us, conclude that this is involving what Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21 are involving?

Since I and some others tend to think it is, I just can't picture any of the vials being in progress at the time while any of the following is taking place.

and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?(Revelation 13:4)

Via their perspective of things this doesn't match---a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them(Revelation 13:7)---and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:15)

But, from their perspective of things, the ones being made war with, and overcome, and that some are killed, it does appear to match this---a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time

Should we then assume verse 4 is not paralelling the time verse 7 and 15 is involving? The point being, it is all about perspective. And besides, Daniel 12:1 and the time of trouble, this is meaning before the 6th seal, not during it, the fact both Matthew 24:29 and Luke 21:25-26 place the 6th seal events immediately after the time of trouble. Which then means to me that the time of unmatched trouble for the church is now in the past and that it is then payback time, meaning God's wrath, which also involve the last 7 vials. Even Revelation 6 and the 6th seal indicates it has transistioned into God's wrath once the events involving the 5th seal have been fulfilled. Meaning the little season involving the 42 month reign of the beast.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Verse 17 indicates that as of the 6th seal, the great day of His wrath has come. And that both Matthew 24:29 and Luke 21:25-26 place the 6th seal events immediately after the time of trouble. How then can you or anyone else insist His wrath which involves the last 7 vials, that these are being poured out during the 5th seal rather than during the 6th seal? Does not during the 5th seal, the text indicates this---How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And does not the text indicate--- that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled?

How does it agree with the 5th seal events by placing His vengeance during the 5th seal when the text indicates that they have to rest yet a little season, then will come His vengeance, thus the 6th seal events?

And then there is this to factor in as well.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Who could possibly be making merry if the vials of wrath have already been in progress at the time? Clearly, verse 10 is meaning before the time of the last 7 vials and also appears to maybe fit this in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety---which then because the next event is the 7th trumpet, could be meaning this in the same verse---then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. The latter meaning the day of the Lord, also meaning both Matthew 24:29 and Luke 21:25-26, which in turn is meaning the 6th seal.

Therefore, any interpreter who insists that the great tribulation is involving the day of the Lord, the wrath of God, that interpreter is contradicting what is recorded in Revelation 6 per the 5th and 6th seal, and is also contradicting what is recorded in both Matthew 24 and Luke 21, since the former account records that the 5th seal involves great tribulation, and that both accounts record that the 6th seal involves God's wrath, and that the 6th seal is immediately after great tribulation. Therefore, I don't see how any interpreter can think it is is reasonable, that if their interpretation is contradicting things, that this still makes their interpretation correct, regardless?

 

[DavidPT]

Jesus said in Matthew 24 regarding the great tribulation, that if not shortened (cut short of it's ultimate result) no flesh on earth will be saved (survive). i.e. all life on earth would die.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Douggg, in high school, though I wasn't remotely a math genius nor claim to be, math was my favorite subject and is what I got my best grades in. 6 always follows 5. And since it does, well, according to Revelation 6 and the 5th seal, and that this is meaning great tribulation, the text indicates that His vengeance is not yet, that they have to wait a little season first, until their brethren that should be killed as they were killed, that this is fulfilled first. Then will it be time for His vengeance, meaning what is recorded in the 6th seal.

Yet, you and some other interpreters somehow think it is reasonable to apply the 6th seal events to that of the time of the 5th seal events, which then would mean, mathematically speaking, 6 doesn't come after 5 after all, 5 and 6 are the same number. The gymnastics some of you are employing in order to get the 5th and 6th seal to agree with your interpretation is mind blowing. 6 can never occur during 5 since 6 follows 5, and that these are not the same number instead. During the 5th seal is not God's vengeance, the day of the Lord. It is during the 6th seal that is God's vengeance, the day of the Lord, and that both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 place the 6th seal after great tribulation, not prior to it nor during it instead.

The day of the Lord is not during the 5th seal, it is during the 6th seal. Great tribulation is involving the 5th seal, not the 6th seal. If one can't figure out what that adds up to, no way I can help them then, since this is something rather simple, not complex instead. Which should mean anyone should know what that adds up to. It adds up to that the day of the Lord can't be meaning during great tribulation if it is meaning during the 6th seal and that the 6th seal is after great tribulation since 6 always comes after 5, and that the great tribulation is involving the 5th seal, and that the day of the Lord is involving the 6th seal.

 

[Douggg]

Yet, you and some other interpreters somehow think it is reasonable to apply the 6th seal events to that of the time of the 5th seal events, which then would mean, mathematically speaking, 6 doesn't come after 5 after all, 5 and 6 are the same number.

David, I have not done as you claim. The events of the seals 1-6 take place chronologically in numeric order. Some time passes between 5 and 6 as the martyred tribulation saints are told to wait a little while until their number is complete.




seal 1 - the rider on the white horse - given a crown - the Antichrist is anointed the King of Israel. False messianic age begins. The 7 year 70th week begins.

seal 2 - the rider on the red horse - the Antichrist has committed the Transgression of Desolation act - shattering the peace and safety of the false messianic age - war breaks out. The Day of the Lord begins.

seal 3 - the rider on the black horse - having a set of scales - food shortages - 666 into effect - rampant inflation - the Great Tribulation has begun.

seal 4 - the rider on the pale horse - death - wide spread dying due to war, starvation, animal predation on humans.

seal 5 - the martyred great tribulation saints request Jesus to avenge their deaths.

seal 6 - the sign of the Son of Man in heaven - Jesus, sickle in hand - about to carry out vengeance for the deaths of the martyred great tribulation saints. Called the wrath of the Lamb.


45 days later, after appearing in heaven as the sign of the Son Man, Jesus descends to earth in Revelation 19, and executes judgment on the wicked.

 

[keras]

The day of the Lord is not during the 5th seal, it is during the 6th seal. Great tribulation is involving the 5th seal, not the 6th seal

You have made it all rather complex!
What happens at the Fifth Seal, is trials and testing's of Christians thru this age. All the martyrs since Stephen and still ongoing. Open since Jesus Ascended.
The Sixth Seal is the multi Prophesied Day when the Lord will send fire, earthquakes and violent storms to destroy His enemies, mainly in the holy Land and to commence all the Prophesied end time things. To be opened in the near future.

Revelation 7:14 says the righteous peoples have passed thru great tribulation, or a great ordeal, which can only refer to the just happened terrible Sixth Seal.

 

[DavidPT]

You have made it all rather complex!
What happens at the Fifth Seal, is trials and testing's of Christians thru this age. All the martyrs since Stephen and still ongoing. Open since Jesus Ascended.
The Sixth Seal is the multi Prophesied Day when the Lord will send fire, earthquakes and violent storms to destroy His enemies, mainly in the holy Land and to commence all the Prophesied end time things. To be opened in the near future.

Revelation 7:14 says the righteous peoples have passed thru great tribulation, or a great ordeal, which can only refer to the just happened terrible Sixth Seal.

Lol. What is so complex about 6 following after 5 and that the great tribulation doesn't involve the day of the Lord but the 6th seal does?

As to interpreters such as @Douggg and others who hold a position similar to his, they need to debunk the following in order to prove that their position is valid.

They need to disprove that the 5th seal is meaning during great tribulation, meaning the little season in question.

They need to disprove that this little season in question is involving anything in Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast.

If they don't need to disprove any of those things since they already agree the 5th seal is meaning during great tribulation, that it is meaning the little season in question, and that the little season in question is involving Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast, they then need to disprove the following.

They need to disprove how the day of the Lord, God's wrath, thus His vengeance, doesn't occur during the 5th seal when other Scripture is telling us that it doesn't even begin until the 6th seal. And that the 5th seal is telling us that the time for His vengeance, it is not that time yet, meaning during the events of the 5th seal.

Therefore, unless they can disprove any of those things, they have zero Scriptures proving that the day of the Lord precedes the beginning of the great trib, or that it parallels any of it if they already agree that the 5th seal is meaning during great tribulation, that it is meaning the little season in question, and that the little season in question is involving Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast.

As to Preterists, though they are wrong as well, they too apparently think the 5th seal is involving great tribulation, meaning Matthew 24:21, and that they are then applying the 6th seal to that of what happened to the unbelieving Jews in 70 AD. Except some of them are contradicting that by insisting the day of the Lord is during great tribulation rather than after.

While @Douggg and other Pretribbers are insisting that the rapture occurs first, which means the day of the Lord follows that and that it is meaning the great trib. Yet, the great trib is meaning the 5th seal and that the day of the Lord is meaning the 6th seal, and that they somehow think it's reasonable that the day of the Lord can be paralleling the 5th seal when it is not even until the 6th seal that the day of the Lord begins. Clearly, the day of the Lord involves darkness, whether meaning in a literal sense or not, that is not relevant, what is relevant is that the 6th seal, not the 5th seal, depicts a time of darkness. Therefore, it is during the 6th seal, not the 5th seal, where the day of the Lord fits.

 

[TribulationSigns]

seal 1 - the rider on the white horse - given a crown - the Antichrist is anointed the King of Israel. False messianic age begins. The 7 year 70th week begins.

Correction: Jesus Christ. He was given a crown means that he was given a kingdom through the church. He judges and makes war in righteousness which is what the color white represents, (Psalms 45:3-7). He went forth conquering and to conquer WITH PEACE (salvation). In other words, Christ goes to conquer and subdue new converts and translates them into his kingdom during the New Testament period. He goes forth tearing down strongholds, so that the gates of hell cannot stand against him. He frees the prisoners therein. He started with one crown and then the SAME WHITE HORSE appears in Revelation 19 where Jesus will return with MANY crowns BECAUSE His Elect gave their crowns to Him, making him King of king and Lord and lords. Selah!

After Christ has accomplished his goal with His Saints, the red, black, and pale horses come after for they are the judgment upon Christ's Church for unfaithfulness.

seal 2 - the rider on the red horse - the Antichrist has committed the Transgression of Desolation act - shattering the peace and safety of the false messianic age - war breaks out. The Day of the Lord begins.

Correction: After Jesus Christ, the White Horse, has secured all of His Elect (Revelation 7, Revelation 9, Revelation 20), the red horse comes with the great sword which is a false gospel with spiritual power upon those without the seal of God, Revelation 9. In other words, he takes peace (salvation) away from them. In other words, salvation has ended. This is when Christ has taken away sacrifice for salvation, Daniel 9:24.

seal 3 - the rider on the black horse - having a set of scales - food shortages - 666 into effect - rampant inflation - the Great Tribulation has begun.

Correction: Per Amos 8:11, it is a spiritual famine, a shortage of hearing God's Word, a scarcity, drought, or absence of the true gospel message. It applies to those who have not yet seal of God, not the Elect which is why God said "hurt now the oil and the wine" who are the secured Elect during time of famine. Nothing to do with a shortage of physical food!!

seal 4 - the rider on the pale horse - death - wide spread dying due to war, starvation, animal predation on humans.

Correction: Spiritual sickness where no doctor (Christ) no longer be found. They will be spiritually healed (salvation) because this is when they will be killed by these means. To kill with sword, hunger, death and beasts all SYMBOLIZE spiritual destruction. Not a physical one. The sword is the Word of the deceiver (false prophets and christs - like the red horse above), the hunger being a spiritual famine of hearing the Word of God, the death being the taking away the gospel of life from the church, and beasts being the carnal Christians, the wolves in sheeps' clothing. The apostasy where the light from the external/corporate church is extinguished where there is no more life there. This is the purpose of the last three horsemen as a judgment upon the unfaithful church.

 

[DavidPT]

Correction: Jesus Christ. He was given a crown means that he was given a kingdom through the church. He judges and makes war in righteousness which is what the color white represents, (Psalms 45:3-7). He went forth conquering and to conquer WITH PEACE (salvation). In other words, Christ goes to conquer and subdue new converts and translates them into his kingdom during the New Testament period. He goes forth tearing down strongholds, so that the gates of hell cannot stand against him. He frees the prisoners therein. He started with one crown and then the SAME WHITE HORSE appears in Revelation 19 where Jesus will return with MANY crowns BECAUSE His Elect gave their crowns to Him, making him King of king and Lord and lords. Selah!

There are 4 horses depicted in Revelation 6. Why would 3 of them not be associated with Christ, though you apparently think all 4 of them are, but one of them would be? If we interpret the white horse in light of what is written in the book of Daniel, why can't the rider on the white horse fit that one?

Such as.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;


This is the Greek word for conquer and conquering in Revelation 6:2.

nikao
nik-ah'-o
from nikh - nike 3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively):--conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.

And notice where else that same Greek word is used.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome(nikao) them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And then notice that nikao can mean prevail and so can the Hebrew word used for 'prevailed' in Daniel 7:21.

And then on top of that, there is also a rider on a white horse in Revelation 19, where no one disputes that that is meaning Christ. Except that rider is wearing many crowns, unlike the rider in Revelation 6 that is only wearing one crown.

 

[Douggg]

While @Douggg and other Pretribbers are insisting that the rapture occurs first, which means the day of the Lord follows that and that it is meaning the great trib

David, you misunderstand. We live in an age of men dwelling apart from God. That age began in the garden and continues to today.

The great tribulation is a part of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord itself lasts forever. I will explain....

ToD act.....Day of the Lord begins.......then Antichrist killed/brought back to life as the beast........ then AoD image made of him......The great tribulation then begins, and lasts 1335 days...... ended with Jesus's Return....which also ends the age of man dwelling apart from God.

The Day of the Lord continues for eternity, never ending, whereby God dwells amongst men.

 

[Douggg]

Correction: Jesus Christ. He was given a crown means that he was given a kingdom through the church. He judges and makes war in righteousness which is what the color white represents, (Psalms 45:3-7). He went forth conquering and to conquer WITH PEACE (salvation). In other words, Christ goes to conquer and subdue new converts and translates them into his kingdom during the New Testament period. He goes forth tearing down strongholds, so that the gates of hell cannot stand against him. He frees the prisoners therein. He started with one crown and then the SAME WHITE HORSE appears in Revelation 19 where Jesus will return with MANY crowns BECAUSE His Elect gave their crowns to Him, making him King of king and Lord and lords. Selah!

After Christ has accomplished his goal with His Saints, the red, black, and pale horses come after for they are the judgment upon Christ's Church for unfaithfulness.



Correction: After Jesus Christ, the White Horse, has secured all of His Elect (Revelation 7, Revelation 9, Revelation 20), the red horse comes with the great sword which is a false gospel with spiritual power upon those without the seal of God, Revelation 9. In other words, he takes peace (salvation) away from them. In other words, salvation has ended. This is when Christ has taken away sacrifice for salvation, Daniel 9:24.



Correction: Per Amos 8:11, it is a spiritual famine, a shortage of hearing God's Word, a scarcity, drought, or absence of the true gospel message. It applies to those who have not yet seal of God, not the Elect which is why God said "hurt now the oil and the wine" who are the secured Elect during time of famine. Nothing to do with a shortage of physical food!!



Correction: Spiritual sickness where no doctor (Christ) no longer be found. They will be spiritually healed (salvation) because this is when they will be killed by these means. To kill with sword, hunger, death and beasts all SYMBOLIZE spiritual destruction. Not a physical one. The sword is the Word of the deceiver (false prophets and christs - like the red horse above), the hunger being a spiritual famine of hearing the Word of God, the death being the taking away the gospel of life from the church, and beasts being the carnal Christians, the wolves in sheeps' clothing. The apostasy where the light from the external/corporate church is extinguished where there is no more life there. This is the purpose of the last three horsemen as a judgment upon the unfaithful church.

You left out seals 5 and 6. We are right on the doorstep of the events of the seals taking place just as I described them.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

the great tribulation includes the plagues - because it is a "time of trouble such as never was on planet Earth"

Dan 12:1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
The deliverance of the saints comes in the form of the appearing of Christ in Matt 24 and Rev 19

How are you factoring in Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast?

Good question.

First of all we learn from Dan 9 that all apocalyptic timelines (Such as Dan 9, Dan 7, Dan 8, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13) use day-for-year. So in Dan 9 that 70 weeks is - 7x70 apocalyptic days - 490 -- so then 490 solar years of time using day-for-year. Dan 9 says there is 483 solar years from 457 B.C. to 23 A.D. the date of Christ's anointing/baptism. And works out perfectly. Then another 3+ years to the crucifixion of Christ - which also works out. The entire 490 year timeline ends in 34 A.D.

All Bible timeline prophecies are internally in tact - they are contiguous. so if you know the start point and length - you know the end point. This is always the case no matter if the prophecy is apocalyptic or not.

That same day-for-year rule holds for the 1260 apocalyptic days of Rev 13 -- it is the 1260 years of dark ages. millions of Christians slain then. And millions more slain in the 1900's as well.

Rev 13 mark of the beast is just more "tribulation" and that part is still future.

Do you, like some of the rest of us, conclude that this is involving what Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21 are involving?

yes they are all pointing to tribulation but Dan 12:1 is specifically pointing to the Rev 16 Plagues part of the tribulation and Matt 24 is pointing to a much larger period that ends with completion of the Rev 16 Plagues.

Since I and some others tend to think it is, I just can't picture any of the vials being in progress at the time while any of the following is taking place.

and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?(Revelation 13:4)

Agreed - that has to be just before the plagues

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them(Revelation 13:7)

Agreed that too has to be before the plagues

---and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:15)

I think that is during the plagues or right at the start.

Should we then assume verse 4 is not paralelling the time verse 7 and 15 is involving? The point being, it is all about perspective.

Agreed - there is the 1260 years of dark ages mentioned in Rev 13 but after that time there is the 2nd beast and the mark of the beast events that include the number 666. All of that occurs before the plagues start but it continues (in terms of persecution) into the plagues

 

[TribulationSigns]

There are 4 horses depicted in Revelation 6. Why would 3 of them not be associated with Christ, though you apparently think all 4 of them are, but one of them would be? If we interpret the white horse in light of what is written in the book of Daniel, why can't the rider on the white horse fit that one?

Such as.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

That is a misapplication of Scripture. The Lord did NOT say that the White Horse is the same as the little horn. The horn in Scripture signifies power. God is talking about the short season of power that Satan is allowed to have to wage spiritual war and to overcome the Saints.

This is the Greek word for conquer and conquering in Revelation 6:2.

nikao
nik-ah'-o
from nikh - nike 3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively):--conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.

And notice where else that same Greek word is used.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome(nikao) them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And then notice that nikao can mean prevail and so can the Hebrew word used for 'prevailed' in Daniel 7:21.

Satan may go forth and conquer, but Christ is the only one who goes forth conquering AND conquering -- that is, so as to gain an ultimate and lasting victory, permanently. Overcoming and to overcome! Prevailing and to prevail! Obviously, Satan doesn't qualify.

Revelation 13:7 is talking about Satan being loosed, gathering his man army, and overcoming the church - where they will be able to make war with the Saints within and silence them - ie. in Revelation 11 where the beast comes out of the bottomless pit to make war and to overcome and kill them.

And then on top of that, there is also a rider on a white horse in Revelation 19, where no one disputes that that is meaning Christ. Except that rider is wearing many crowns, unlike the rider in Revelation 6 that is only wearing one crown.

What shall we say then, that these white horses and this white linen symbolize they only looked like they were righteous, or it was something other than righteousness only in Revelation 6:2 simply because that fits our eschatology? No, the symbolism is consistent and obvious. Or it should be. It doesn't jump from one meaning to another as the chapters of Revelation roll by, God is consistent in His symbolism. That is precisely why we can come to the truth of interpretations. Because it's not a horse symbolizing strength in one chapter and a boat in another. That's what makes scripture consistent and able to be rightly understood. That's what makes a star a Messenger in verse 1 of Revelation and also a Messenger in verse 12. That's what makes a Candlestick the church in verse 2 and also the church in verse 11, or even in chapter 11. That's what makes the red Dragon Satan in Revelation 12, and the Dragon in Revelation 20 the very same Satan! Precisely because we don't say it's Satan in one chapter and Christ in another. It's just sound exegesis.

Therefore, Christ indeed was given a crown in the beginning, when He ascended to the throne to rule to start His New Testament congregation, the church. Likewise, He does now have many crowns. Many crowns BECAUSE He has triumphed over the nations and is the King of kings and Lord of Lords. Where is the mystery? Indeed what did the four living creatures do and say of Christ? That He had redeemed them by His blood, that he was worthy, and they did give their crowns to Him. Is that not correct?

Revelation 4:10-11

• "The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
• Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Here are the many crowns that Christ has. For example, we surrender all! It doesn't mean Christ was not given a crown, rather it symbolizes Christ as King of kings and lord of lords, that all nations and tongues and creeds surrender all authority and worship him. This has nothing whatsoever to do with negating the rider in Revelation 6:2 from being Christ, Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

You left out seals 5 and 6. We are right on the doorstep of the events of the seals taking place just as I described them.

seal 5 - the martyred great tribulation saints request Jesus to avenge their deaths.

Correction:
There is no such thing as "Great Tribulation Saints" as if they are apart from the other group who have already been raptured out. THat is the false teaching of premillennialism.

The Church has been here since Pentecost and will remain be here until the last day when Christ return and gather those who are still alive and remain. I have shown the Scripture where the Elect must be all secured and saved BEFORE SATAN IS LOOSED. See, the world has had tribulations since the death and resurrection of Christ. It will grow progressively worse (greater) and culminate in Satan's loosing, aka "the Great Tribulation. Will there be great tribulation before Satan's loosing? I think so, as these are the "beginnings of sorrow." The persecution and reviling and tribulation FOR THE SAINTS in the Church is "WHY" Satan is loosed as precursor judgment upon it. And all the souls of the Saints who have died BEFORE the great tribulation will cry out to God...

Revelation 6:9-11

• "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
• And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
• And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

There was great tribulation, but here is the faith and patience of the saints, to longsuffer until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

God did not yet judge His unfaithful church until the fulfillment of Elect be killed first, after the 3-1/2 days of the dead bodies of Two Witnesses (Saints) in the church is finish. Then only then God will start just the unfaithful church before He returns. The sixth seal is what the judgment of the church is about.

seal 6 - the sign of the Son of Man in heaven - Jesus, sickle in hand - about to carry out vengeance for the deaths of the martyred great tribulation saints. Called the wrath of the Lamb.

Rev 6:12-17
(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
(15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

In 5th Seal, the true believers are praying in heaven to God to avenge their blood. God's response is to open the sixth seal: His Wrath upon the unfaithful church that is guilty of Saint's blood. It will be total spiritual destruction for the unfaithful New Testament congregation but the Elect (after Two Witnesses as resurrected by the Spirit of Life) witness the wrath of the Lamb and mourned for the state of the church.

 

[Douggg]

In 5th Seal, the true believers are praying in heaven to God to avenge their blood. God's response is to open the sixth seal: His Wrath upon the unfaithful church that is guilty of Saint's blood. It will be total spiritual destruction for the unfaithful New Testament congregation but the Elect (after Two Witnesses as resurrected by the Spirit of Life) witness the wrath of the Lamb and mourned for the state of the church.

What about these verses, actual events to occur or not ?

(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

 

[DavidPT]

David, you misunderstand. We live in an age of men dwelling apart from God. That age began in the garden and continues to today.

The great tribulation is a part of the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord itself lasts forever. I will explain....

ToD act.....Day of the Lord begins.......then Antichrist killed/brought back to life as the beast........ then AoD image made of him......The great tribulation then begins, and lasts 1335 days...... ended with Jesus's Return....which also ends the age of man dwelling apart from God.

The Day of the Lord continues for eternity, never ending, whereby God dwells amongst men.

Douggg, even if one accepted that the day of the Lord is never ending, though I doubt anyone besides you do, or if there are also others that do, it wouldn't be very many, I'm not seeing how this proves when the day of the Lord begins, that it proves it begins with the great tribulation.

Why contradict the 6th seal events? That is not meaning during great tribulation, that is meaning after great tribulation. And what is one thing the 6th seal events depict? A time of darkness. And what is one fact about the day of the Lord? It also involves darkness.

Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

And does not the following depict darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven , and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

If these things I have underlined were to happen in a literal sense, though I'm not arguing they are meaning in a literal sense, what would that look like? Would it not look like this? darkness, and not light. even very dark, and no brightness in it. How could it not? Clearly then, Matthew 24:29 is involving the day of the Lord and that verse 29 indicates that the day of the Lord begins immediately after the trib of those days. Therefore, placing the start of the day of the Lord after great tribulation, not prior to it nor during it instead.

Which then also agrees with this.

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:


How can this verse not be involving the 6th seal? And does not this verse indicate that these things have to happen before the notable day of the Lord can come? And does not Matthew 24:29 indicate that the 6th seal is after great tribulation? And shouldn't that mean that makes great tribulation the 5th seal? And does not the time of the 5th seal events indicate it is not time for God's wrath yet?

 

[Douggg]

Why contradict the 6th seal events? That is not meaning during great tribulation, that is meaning after great tribulation. And what is one thing the 6th seal events depict? A time of darkness. And what is one fact about the day of the Lord? It also involves darkness.

David, the sixth seal, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, will take place "after the tribulation of those days" is what it says in Matthew 24:29.

You are reading that verse and thinking to yourself - Oh, great tribulation. Which for the most part is - but not quiet over, which is why it says after the tribulation of those days - leaving out the "great".

What's not over? you might ask.

1. The armies that have assembled at Armageddon, when they see Jesus in heaven sickle in hand, surround Jerusalem, raping some of the women, and taking half of the population of the city as hostages. In Zechariah 14.

2. Also, there will be one final vial poured out on the earth, the 7th vial of God's wrath. The vials of God's wrath are poured out during the great tribulation.

Then, Jesus will descend from heaven to stand on the Mt. of Olives.

 

[DavidPT]

What about these verses, actual events to occur or not ?

(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

I don't know about those things having to be actual events, but what this is depicting is what counts. It is depicting darkness, exactly what the day of the Lord involves.

 

[DavidPT]

The Day of the Lord continues for eternity, never ending, whereby God dwells amongst men.

Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Apparently then, this means you envision all of eternity being like what is depicted here. This verse alone shows how nonsensical it is to apply the day of Lord to all of eternity. This verse does not say the day of the Lord shall be light, it says it won't be because it will be darkness instead. This verse says, even very dark, and no brightness in it. What shall be? The day of the Lord.

But if at any time it is no longer involving darkness, it then can no longer be the day of the Lord at that point. And since there has to be a new heaven and new earth at some point, it couldn't possibly still be involving darkness, even very dark, and no brightness in it, once we reach that era of time.