Cessationist and Sola Scriptura don't mix

[ToBeLoved]

Canonization is a very western mindset. the hebrews accepted traditions passed down which included scripture. In the early church the apostles and their letters were regarded a scripture and they accepted them without the need for them to go through a process to authorise them; it was good enough that it was written by John, Paul or Peter and no further approval was needed and tradition was received in these ways. What Paul knew was tradition passed down to him which he also knew was corrupted and warped by man, although he valued the scriptures, he also knew his authority from God. For him to conceive of a time where a group of leaders of the organized church from Christianized Rome would come together and being to approve a bunch of letters as an authorized canon of the new testament of God would be irresponsible. Scripture does not talk about this event so why do you try and fit it into this passage?

Of course they did. There were only a handful of apostles and Christianity was a new religion.

They all knew who Paul, Peter James, Timothy, ect were.

So what

 

[DamianWarS]

You know what, more is said about the false teachers using gifts.

Jesus even spoke about in the last days their will be false PROPHETS. Now, I imagine they will be propecing with signs and wonders.

Jesus even says so.

So acting like the gifts are all that and a bag of chips, if they exist, I think is crazy since Jesus Himself warns us about those falsely displaying the same gifts you promote.

I've seen the videos of Pentecostals and it rivals Word of Faith. and not in a good way

I'm not a poster child for pentecostals and their doctrines. I'm trying to defend what scripture values. if you don't like what pentecostals do then correct them using scripture. The Corinthian church had a problem being over zealous too and Paul corrects them. So why not use Paul's words to correct these things you don't like in the church.

 

[ToBeLoved]

you brought up that Luther and Calvin were cessationist I'm just correcting it. Their commentaries are widely available so you are free to look up what their thoughts were on this passage.

Luther and Calvin are far removed from the 1st century so perhaps their views are misguided but that's not my point. The point of the OP is If you value sola scriptura and are a cessationist then there is a conflict.

No, I never brought them up at all. And it doesn't matter if they are or are not.

Because God decided a long time ago. Not in the time of Calvin or Luther.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm not a poster child for pentecostals and their doctrines. I'm trying to defend what scripture values. if you don't like what pentecostals do then correct them using scripture. The Corinthian church had a problem being over zealous too and Paul corrects them. So why not use Paul's words to correct these things you don't like in the church.

You mentioned Pentecostals by name in YOUR posts.

Why do you keep trying to blame someone else for YOUR words?

YOU said Pentecostal.

You need to act like an adult and stop attacking me because I don;'t need your confusion when I respond to your words you forget that you say. Don't need it at all.

 

[DamianWarS]

Of course they did. There were only a handful of apostles and Christianity was a new religion.

They all knew who Paul, Peter James, Timothy, ect were.

So what

following this logic of tradition Paul would not have conceived of this special golden era of the church where his letters would be canonized. Paul would have thought that the tradition of the church would continue and be taught over generations and the Holy Spirit would continue to empower the church to spread the gospel. There is no mysterious time when this would be pulled away and Paul was able to see it but kept it to himself.

 

[DamianWarS]

No, I never brought them up at all. And it doesn't matter if they are or are not.

Because God decided a long time ago. Not in the time of Calvin or Luther.

sorry I'm replying to too many people and got mixed up. but the point is still the same. If you value sola scriptura and are a cessationist then there is a conflict. It's your answer to figure out, if you're a cessationist then you must either not value sola scriptura or believe there are exceptions to sola scriptura.

 

[ToBeLoved]

following this logic of tradition Paul would not have conceived of this special golden era of the church where his letters would be canonized. Paul would have thought that the tradition of the church would continue and be taught over generations and the Holy Spirit would continue to empower the church to spread the gospel. There is no mysterious time when this would be pulled away and Paul was able to see it but kept it to himself.

Is it tradition that Jesus chose 12 apostles?

Now what about who the apostles were or who the apostles chose to be leaders in the new churches is tradition?

 

[ToBeLoved]

sorry I'm replying to too many people and got mixed up. but the point is still the same. If you value sola scriptura and are a cessationist then there is a conflict. It's your answer to figure out, if you're a cessationist then you must either not value sola scriptura or believe there are exceptions to sola scriptura.

There is as much evidence for cessasionism as there is gifts.

I value sola scriptura.

 

[W2L]

sorry I'm replying to too many people and got mixed up. but the point is still the same. If you value sola scriptura and are a cessationist then there is a conflict. It's your answer to figure out, if you're a cessationist then you must either not value sola scriptura or believe there are exceptions to sola scriptura.

Or one just understands the scriptures differently.

I dont think any church/denomination has all the answers so why should i? Why cant i be "scripture alone" and cessationist? I have no such internal conflict. Matter of fact when faith is challenged i am strengthened.

 

[DamianWarS]

You mentioned Pentecostals by name in YOUR posts.

Why do you keep trying to blame someone else for YOUR words?

YOU said Pentecostal.

You need to act like an adult and stop attacking me because I don;'t need your confusion when I respond to your words you forget that you say. Don't need it at all.

I claimed that cessationist are a reaction to pentecostal movements not that I'm a pentecostal myself or that I agree with pentecostal doctrines. I'm not trying to focus on a specific denoms position for this thread. Perhaps it was unwise to name drop in the OP but ultimately I want to value what scripture teaches and from what I can see scripture supports the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

There is a lot of stuff that happens in pentecostal/charismatic circles that I don't agree with but I ground myself with scripture not with what everyone else is doing and I will correct it with scripture.

 

[Albion]

Then, with that message in post 146, we have your #1 concern, Damian. There is therefore no need for anyone to turn to any side issues or personal attacks.

As for this particular issue, however, I tried several times to explain the matter to you, and what you have done is come back with the same claim that you started us off with. Why not respond directly to the explanations that were given...and we will see where it takes us?

 

[DamianWarS]

There is as much evidence for cessasionism as there is gifts.

I value sola scriptura.

then what are the verses

 

[DamianWarS]

Then, with that message in post 146, we have your #1 concern, Damian. There is therefore no need for anyone to turn to any side issues or personal attacks.

As for this particular issue, however, I tried several times to explain the matter to you, and what you have done is come back with the same claim that you started us off with. Why not respond directly to the explanations that were given...and we will see where it takes us?

I think my tone is being misunderstood. I don't believe I have personally attacked anyone in this thread and if I have done so I apologize. I have also tried to reply to your concerns and if you feel I'm ignoring an issue then please restate it and I will directly respond to that issue.

We can read things in our own tones and opinions and they often mirror our current state, this can make one think they have replied appropriately and the other think they have not. I'm not trying to dismiss any points and will be happy to address them. Maybe I'm too misfocused so perhaps start with 1 point so I can reply to that point directly without confusion.

 

[gordonhooker]

Would it be wise to expect someone who has never read the bible before to formulate correct doctrine? At the very least they would need to have a basic grounding in the principles of bible interpretation.

Correct doctrine according to who or which group?

 

[W2L]

Correct doctrine according to who or which group?

Exactly. For me i think i should follow love instead of gifts.

 

[ToBeLoved]

then what are the verses

1 Corinthians 13:8
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

tongues is not even a gift for believers, but for unbelievers. More can be read about the Day of Pentecost.

1 Corinthians 14:22
22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign3 not for unbelievers but for believers.

 

[DamianWarS]

Or one just understands the scriptures differently.

I dont think any church/denomination has all the answers so why should i? Why cant i be "scripture alone" and cessationist? I have no such internal conflict. Matter of fact when faith is challenged i am strengthened.

in conflict I seek the scriptures to balance out competing doctrines. I really don't see the cessationist view responsible within scripture alone however perhaps it is merely my bias speaking.

 

[W2L]

in conflict I seek the scriptures to balance out competing doctrines. I really don't see the cessationist view responsible within scripture alone however perhaps it is merely my bias speaking.

Many will boast of their gifts of prophecy and such but they will be rejected by the Lord. Satan will use signs and wonders to deceive people as well. Love abides forever though. Im focussed on love not miracles.

 

[DamianWarS]

1 Corinthians 13:8
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

tongues is not even a gift for believers, but for unbelievers. More can be read about the Day of Pentecost.

1 Corinthians 14:22
22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign3 not for unbelievers but for believers.

These are the cessationist verses and where the word "cessationist" comes from. I don't see these are responsible verses to reveal to us these gifts are no longer active in the church. The passage is simply too cryptic to point to an event in the church that is unarticulated in the rest of scripture. Paul also concludes ch14:39-40 with an encouragement to continue in the gifts.

Perhaps I am not fair enough to say the cessationist view cannot be supported in scripture but I am not comfortable with such a cryptic doctrine in scripture and to me it is counter-sola scriptura as it starts from a point in the church and works backwards to the scripture which is out of the spirit of sola scriptura.

 

[DamianWarS]

Many will boast of their gifts of prophecy and such but they will be rejected by the Lord. Satan will use signs and wonders to deceive people as well. Love abides forever though. Im focussed on love not miracles.

there is a lot of deceit in the church and it doesn't only appear in churches that values the gifts of the HS. We are called to test all spirits, and with the gifts of the spirit they are to be orderly and to edify the body of believers not have a product of confusions or even an emotional high with no fruit of the experience itself. There is scriptural argument for tongues being a personal prayer language and if so we need to be careful not to extend that prayer language into corporate worship as the greater goal of edification is lacking. This is a lot of the focuses of what Paul highlights to the Corinthians in Ch12-14 but he does not conclude with discouraging the gifts but rather to practice the gift in a manner that edifies the church and gives glory to God. Paul himself states that without love our gifts are just noise so let's use Paul's words to teach correct doctrine.