Cessationist and Sola Scriptura don't mix

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by DamianWarS, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away"

    Cessationist use this passage to say that this is identifying the revelatory gifts and claim that "the perfect" has come and these gifts are no more. Essentially they say this "perfect" is the product of the 1st century such as the completion of the NT or the first wave spreading the Church. The problem with this interpretation is it's highly cryptic and is the only passage in the bible that would actually talk about this point of time. If we going to use Sola Scriptura methods should we not be a little more responsible with our interpretations? If Paul actually intended this to mean some mysterious time around the end of the first century you would think there would be something to confirm this?

    The Cessationist view has only come out from a reaction to pentecostal movements that they were unwilling to accept so they started with what they wanted scripture to say then used then search of a spot where it could fit but is a very irresponsible way of interpreting. Reality is before the 19th century dominate interpretation was that the perfect was Christ either being with him in Heaven or his return, there was no common accepted Cessationist view. There's enough in scripture to teach on proper use of the gifts or of how the Holy Spirit operates that we shouldn't have to resort to sweeping them under the first century rug.
     
  2. Tree of Life Chillbro Swaggins

    +1,708
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Married
    Yeah I think that's a terrible mishandling of this text. That's not what Paul meant at all.

    And yet I'm a cessationist.

    The Cessationist view is very old. It's not a reaction to 20th century pentecostal movements. And the cessationist view in no way depends on this fraudulent interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.
     
  3. Dave-W Our six grandchildren Supporter

    +6,766
    Messianic
    Married
    US-Others
    Correct. It was a reaction to the "prophetic" excesses of Montanus and his followers in the late 2nd century. Over-reaction imo.

    Montanism - Wikipedia

    It was wrong then and it is wrong now.
     
  4. swordsman1 Well-Known Member

    +432
    Christian
    Although this passage is obscure, it must still have a correct interpretation. Paul at the time of his writing said those 3 spiritual gifts would cease when 'the perfect' or 'completeness' comes (depending on your bible version). There are a number of suggested interpretations of what that is, but the two main two options are that 'completeness' is either the 2nd coming of Christ or the completion and distribution of the canon and subsequent maturing of the church. Exegetically the latter makes more sense (Christ is not mentioned in this passage), it is supported by other scripture (eg Eph 2:20), and is also confirmed by history.
     
  5. DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    if the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 is fraudulent then what do Cessationist Sola Scriptura believing Christians point to in the bible as confirmation?
     
  6. W2L Well-Known Member

    +6,257
    Christian
    Private
    I lean Cessationist because i dont see any apostles today.
     
  7. Albion Facilitator

    +13,779
    Anglican
    Married
    I will take your word for it that some self-described cessationists have made that argument, but I have never met one.

    Most cessationists whom I have heard from take the position that they do for no other reason that that tongues did cease.

    In any case, Sola Scriptura is not brought into question by that stance.
     
  8. Albion Facilitator

    +13,779
    Anglican
    Married
    It is a matter of the interpretation of scripture, that's all.
     
  9. DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    it doesn't mention this mysterious time as well but it doesn't stop you from saying it does. Of course cessationist who use this passage ignore the context which starts at the beginning of chapter 12. If one gift is removed they all are removed

    There are loads of very clear references to the return of Christ but this obscure mysterious time is not mention and Eph 2:20 is about as cryptic of reference to this period as 1 Corinthians 13 is. I actually don't dogmatically say it is the return of Christ but rather an event analogous with either Christ's return or Heaven.
     
  10. DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    is not cessationism a doctrine? if we teach it and teach Sola Scriptura should not that doctrine be confirmed within scripture rather than shrug our shoulders?
     
  11. W2L Well-Known Member

    +6,257
    Christian
    Private
    Show me a real apostle, who does miracles and is constantly delivered from deadly peril.
     
  12. DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    These are not the Gifts of the Apostles they are the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.
     
  13. Tree of Life Chillbro Swaggins

    +1,708
    United States
    Presbyterian
    Married
    The Biblical case for Cessationism is not water tight. But I would say that the Scriptures suggest that the "sign" gifts accompany the apostolic office and are meant to confirm new revelation (Mark 16:20). Since the apostolic message has been delivered once for all (Hebrews 1:1-2, Jude 3), there is no more new revelation. So it makes sense that the sign gifts ceased with the close of the apostolic age. There is no Biblical text which forces us to conclude that all gifts (sign gifts most notably) will always continue. And there is some Biblical rationale for why they would cease.

    On top of this there does not appear to be any living persons who have the authoritative sign gifts like the apostles had. So from looking at our modern situation they appear to have ceased.

    And on top of this the historical record suggests that the sign gifts ceased around the close of the first century. They are simply absent from the historical record in the second century.
     
  14. W2L Well-Known Member

    +6,257
    Christian
    Private
    Show me someone who has the gift of prophecy, does miraculous healings, or speaks in tongues with an interpreter
     
  15. DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    Just because the church on or community has ceased valuing the gifts of the Holy Spirit should not mean the gifts actually are being withheld. Do you belief in Sola Scriptura? read Acts and see what it says... should we not continue to believe the same?
     
  16. DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    you know as well as I do there are many who claim these things.
     
  17. klutedavid Well-Known Member

    +521
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Hello W2L.

    Is an evangelist a type of apostle?

    1 Corinthians 12:28
    And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

    The ministry of evangelism is not mentioned, I wonder why?
     
  18. W2L Well-Known Member

    +6,257
    Christian
    Private
    I believe what i see, as far as gifts go.
     
  19. DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

    +447
    Christian
    Private
    blessed are those who believe without seeing
     
  20. Albion Facilitator

    +13,779
    Anglican
    Married
    That's a good question. I'm inclined to say No.

    Its a simple denial of something that a minority of Christians have decided to erect as a doctrine in their own churches. And the term itself is only what these people call traditional Christians of any denomination who do not follow along.

    As I said, most of us consider it to have been confirmed by the experience of the church, just as we say that the verse which teaches that the Holy Ghost will lead the church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it has been borne out by the fact that the church is still here and gaining members. No one who is pro-Sola Scriptura is denying the passage about tongues. But there is a matter of interpretation there.