Can you prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist?

[InterestedAtheist]

There are several reasons why a prayer isn't answered. God's will and lack of faith are the first things that come to mind. When you pray you must go on with no doubt and as if it has already been answered. Very few can achieve that level. This isn't a game. It's takes hard work and dedication to be found worthy of serving.

I'd ask you what about those people who did work hard, praying with sincerity and faith for many years and never receiving an answer, but I know what you'll say. They weren't really sincere. They didn't pray hard enough. They may have already received an answer, but not the one they expected.

In short, exactly what a Santaist would say when asked why Santa didn't give them presents.

 

[Reasonable Christian]

I'd ask you what about those people who did work hard, praying with sincerity and faith for many years and never receiving an answer, but I know what you'll say. They weren't really sincere. They didn't pray hard enough. They may have already received an answer, but not the one they expected.

In short, exactly what a Santaist would say when asked why Santa didn't give them presents.

No, I would say that they didn't pray in accordance with God's will. In other words, God decided for reasons known only to him not to give them what they asked for. Again, according to the Bible, God never promises to give people everything they want. If you think he should do so, that's your business, but that's not what the Bible teaches.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

"Reasonable Christian" and "Interested Atheist," eh? This should go well.

The point is, we all need to step up our game: atheists, agnostics, and theists alike. The discussions in this forum would be a lot more enlightening if we did.

I'll start with your conclusion, because I think it's a fine sentiment that I agree with. I think you should begin by applying it to your own post.

Yes, Christians make these mistakes. But you know what? So do atheists, including InterestedAtheist.

The question of whether God exists, or whether Christianity is true, is not a "both-sides-can-be-right" matter of opinion. Only one side can be right. That means that while both sides can clearly use sloppy reasoning, and probably do, one side is mostly wrong and the other side is mostly right.

They rationalize away unwelcome evidence for God's existence because they're determined not to believe in him, summarily declaring whatever evidence is presented to be inadequate. (Yep, we can psychoanalyze you too.) They take all of their ideas as facts, rarely presenting affirmative arguments for why they don't believe in God, which is different than proving he doesn't exist. After dismissing or rationalizing away all of the evidence for God's existence, they then declare God to be "hidden."

Looks like someone has had some bad experiences in previous debates!
This ties in nicely with the subject of this thread. So, you think we should present affirmative facts for why we don't believe in God? We should prove that God doesn't exist?
Great. Please prove to me that Santa doesn't exist.

Oh, and also: look, I promise you, I say this in all sincerity: I have never seen any even slightly convincing evidence for God's existence. If it's out there, and I haven't yet encountered it, please tell me what it is.

As InterestedAtheist did in his post above, they misquote the Bible all the time, or quote it out of context to make it say something it doesn't mean. For the record, the Bible does NOT say that bad things will never happen to the people God loves or that all prayers will be answered. In fact, it says the opposite of both.

Just a quibble here, but I didn't exactly say it. I agree with it, but it was a quote from the article.
Having said that, the Bible does say "Ask and you shall receive" - and, more importantly, the Bible shows many cases of people praying and having their prayers answered; and more importantly than that, the Christian culture that we are surrounded by encourages prayer and expects at least some level of success in getting answers. Take a look, for example, at Prayer Wall

They routinely commit the genetic fallacy ("You're only a Christian because you were raised that way"), the ad hominem fallacy ("Christians are idiots"), and too many other logical fallacies to list here. And you know what? So do theists/Christians, including variations of "The Bible is true because the Bible says so" (begging the question). Christians, stop saying stuff like that.

(1) Most Christians are, in fact, Christians because they were raised that way. It's not a fallacy to point this out.
(2) I never say "You're wrong because you're an idiot. It's against forum rules to do so.
(3) Atheists may be guilty of sloppy reasoning, but their essential arguments are sound. Generally speaking, atheists lack belief in God because of insufficient evidence. This is perfectly rational. If you think there is evidence that God exists, I'd love to hear it.

And while there are a few contradictions in the Bible

How generous of you.

at least in the copies we have

Quickly qualified, I see.

none of them impacts central Christian theology. Plus, most of the "contradictions" people bring up are not actual contradictions -- i.e., two statements that are logically incompatible, such as declaring that A and -A are simultaneously true in the same way at the same time.

Myself, I don't spend much time looking for actual contradictions in the Bible. I just point out how the Christian religion doesn't make sense. See my signature.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

You didn't make an explicit point with your response. You cited a Bible verse. I assumed it was in response to what I wrote (which you quoted). I wrote that God isn't obligated to answer everyone's prayers. The verse you cited did not rebut that point. Do you have another point you'd like to make?

You should re-read your original post. You never mentioned "everyone's" prayers.

There are circumstances in which God is obligated to answer a prayer, if we are assuming that he is not a liar. That is what I was responding to.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

No, I would say that they didn't pray in accordance with God's will.

Well done for summarising my points.

Again, according to the Bible, God never promises to give people everything they want. If you think he should do so, that's your business, but that's not what the Bible teaches.

“If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” —Matthew 21:22 (NIV)

“Ask and it will be given to you…. For everyone who asks receives.” —Luke 11:9-10 (NIV)

“Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.” —Matthew 18:19 (NIV)

Are these not from the Bible? Do they not mean what they say?

 

[Reasonable Christian]

Well done for summarising my points.


“If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” —Matthew 21:22 (NIV)

“Ask and it will be given to you…. For everyone who asks receives.” —Luke 11:9-10 (NIV)

“Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.” —Matthew 18:19 (NIV)

Are these not from the Bible? Do they not mean what they say?

Again, you have to look at what the Bible teaches as a whole. Elsewhere, it says if you pray in Jesus' name (i.e. in accordance with God's will), you will receive what you ask for. Jesus himself asked God the Father that he not have to be crucified, but then he said "Not my will, but yours be done." And he was crucified, because that was the will of God the Father. If Jesus' prayer wasn't answered, why should we expect all of ours to be answered? Anyway, that is the Bible's teaching on prayer. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but there it is.

 

[Reasonable Christian]

You should re-read your original post. You never mentioned "everyone's" prayers.

There are circumstances in which God is obligated to answer a prayer, if we are assuming that he is not a liar. That is what I was responding to.

Fair enough. On this, we agree.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I'm sorry if you don't like it, but there it is.

Just a minor point, but this is the second time you've said this kind of thing. Does it seem to be unnecessarily condescending to you? It seems that way to me. As a matter of courtesy, would you mind not doing it?

Again, you have to look at what the Bible teaches as a whole. Elsewhere, it says if you pray in Jesus' name (i.e. in accordance with God's will), you will receive what you ask for. Jesus himself asked God the Father that he not have to be crucified, but then he said "Not my will, but yours be done." And he was crucified, because that was the will of God the Father. If Jesus' prayer wasn't answered, why should we expect all of ours to be answered? Anyway, that is the Bible's teaching on prayer.

Looking at what the Bible teaches as a whole is fine, but that doesn't mean assuming you are right and looking for a verse to justify your interpretation, even if it has to be twisted to do so. Take a look at your two examples:

it says if you pray in Jesus' name (i.e. in accordance with God's will), you will receive what you ask for.

If you are correct about "in Jesus' name" meaning "in accordance with God's will," then prayer means nothing. Since nobody knows what God's will is, nobody can know whether God will answer a prayer or not. Therefore, you have a perfect license to explain any failed prayers.
Of course, I don't know why you'd think "in Jesus' name" would mean that. Except that it does explain why so many prayers are not answered. Sounds like a rationalisation to me. As this thread highlights - very similar to people asking why Santa didn't give them presents.
Another problem is, your interpretation contradicts the verses I gave above. They say nothing about asking in a certain way, or only some prayers being answered. I am happy to agree that it makes sense that God would only answer prayers that He wants to answer. But the fact is, that's not what the Bible teaches.

Jesus himself asked God the Father that he not have to be crucified, but then he said "Not my will, but yours be done." And he was crucified, because that was the will of God the Father. If Jesus' prayer wasn't answered, why should we expect all of ours to be answered?

Well, you've answered it yourself. Jesus asked to be taken off the cross, but then he changed his mind. No doubt he knew about the divine plan and decided it was best to follow it through.

that is the Bible's teaching on prayer.

It sounds rather unsuitable to speak of a "teaching" on prayer when, as we've just seen in these last few posts, all the Bible has is a scattering of inconsistent verses on the subject and a load of stories from the Bible and Christian culture.

 

[Reasonable Christian]

Well, you've answered it yourself. Jesus asked to be taken off the cross, but then he changed his mind. No doubt he knew about the divine plan and decided it was best to follow it through.

Jesus didn't "change his mind" about wanting to be taken off the cross. God the Father said no, which is completely different. As for prayer meaning "nothing" since it has to be in accordance with God's will to be answered, this misconstrues the point of prayer. The point is not to push a button and get whatever we want as if God were a divine vending machine. He's not and doesn't claim to be. The point of asking for things in prayer is to show our faith in and reliance on God. As the Bible says, he already knows our needs and desires before we pray, so it's not like we need to bring them to his attention or he'll miss them.

In any event, I've explained to you what I (and every Christian I've ever talked to or read) think the Bible as a whole teaches about prayer. You're free to disagree. But note that if you claim the Bible's teaching on prayer is "inconsistent," you can't also claim it teaches that all prayers will be answered, and so Christians are silly for continuing to believe in God when their prayers aren't answered. At best, all you can claim is that you don't know what the Bible teaches on prayer because of the alleged inconsistencies. If that's the case, you have little grounds for trying to score debate points with Christians by pointing to unanswered prayer.

Speaking of debates, I see no point in continuing this one because you've obviously made up your mind.

 

[Reasonable Christian]

Just a minor point, but this is the second time you've said this kind of thing. Does it seem to be unnecessarily condescending to you? It seems that way to me. As a matter of courtesy, would you mind not doing it?

This from a guy who says Christians are just like children who believe in Santa, dismissing or rationalizing away evidence and arguments they don't like because it goes against their beliefs. The entire thread you started was condescending, my friend. However, I should not have been condescending in response, so if I came across that way, I apologize.

 

[Arc F1]

And you'll note the implicit argument: When an atheist asks, "Why wasn't your prayer answered?" and expects the Christian to offer a justification, the atheist is making the implicit claim that the prayer should have been answered. Instead of trying to justify to the atheist why God didn't answer it, which is a losing proposition, the Christian should just make the atheist prove their claim that God was somehow required to. The atheist won't be able to do that, and the discussion will be over.

I've yet to meet a real atheist. They do believe there is a God. They are just seeking out something that says there isn't one so they can be justified in not following. They know that they will be punished in the end but they still hold out hope that it won't happen. My suggestion to them would be to stop being lazy and wasting the precious little bit of time they have and start following the Lord before it's to late.

 

[Arc F1]

I'd ask you what about those people who did work hard, praying with sincerity and faith for many years and never receiving an answer, but I know what you'll say. They weren't really sincere. They didn't pray hard enough. They may have already received an answer, but not the one they expected.

In short, exactly what a Santaist would say when asked why Santa didn't give them presents.

Why do you come here and show us your bad side? You have zero chance of shaking anyones faith. I'm sure you know we laugh at you for the lame attempts. Be truthful and tell us all what your goal is.

I think you do believe but don't want to follow. It is your choice.

 

[Arc F1]

Just a minor point, but this is the second time you've said this kind of thing. Does it seem to be unnecessarily condescending to you? It seems that way to me. As a matter of courtesy, would you mind not doing it?



Looking at what the Bible teaches as a whole is fine, but that doesn't mean assuming you are right and looking for a verse to justify your interpretation, even if it has to be twisted to do so. Take a look at your two examples:

If you are correct about "in Jesus' name" meaning "in accordance with God's will," then prayer means nothing. Since nobody knows what God's will is, nobody can know whether God will answer a prayer or not. Therefore, you have a perfect license to explain any failed prayers.
Of course, I don't know why you'd think "in Jesus' name" would mean that. Except that it does explain why so many prayers are not answered. Sounds like a rationalisation to me. As this thread highlights - very similar to people asking why Santa didn't give them presents.
Another problem is, your interpretation contradicts the verses I gave above. They say nothing about asking in a certain way, or only some prayers being answered. I am happy to agree that it makes sense that God would only answer prayers that He wants to answer. But the fact is, that's not what the Bible teaches.


Well, you've answered it yourself. Jesus asked to be taken off the cross, but then he changed his mind. No doubt he knew about the divine plan and decided it was best to follow it through.


It sounds rather unsuitable to speak of a "teaching" on prayer when, as we've just seen in these last few posts, all the Bible has is a scattering of inconsistent verses on the subject and a load of stories from the Bible and Christian culture.

You make bold assumptions that prayer fails because you want something without giving anything. Do you also operate this way in real life? Do you earn or do you just hold out your hand? I'm curious to know.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I've yet to meet a real atheist. They do believe there is a God. They are just seeking out something that says there isn't one so they can be justified in not following. They know that they will be punished in the end but they still hold out hope that it won't happen. My suggestion to them would be to stop being lazy and wasting the precious little bit of time they have and start following the Lord before it's to late.

I've yet to meet a real Christian. They don't believe there is a god. They are just seeking out something that says there is one so there'll be someone to forgive them. They know that they will cease to exist in the end but they hold out hope that that isn't true. My suggestion to them would be to stop being lazy and wasting the precious little bit of time they have start living a fulfilling life.

Sounds insulting doesn't it.

 

[Reasonable Christian]

The question of whether God exists, or whether Christianity is true, is not a "both-sides-can-be-right" matter of opinion. Only one side can be right. That means that while both sides can clearly use sloppy reasoning, and probably do, one side is mostly wrong and the other side is mostly right.

I agree and never meant to imply otherwise. I would add that the stakes in this debate could not be higher.

Looks like someone has had some bad experiences in previous debates!
This ties in nicely with the subject of this thread. So, you think we should present affirmative facts for why we don't believe in God? We should prove that God doesn't exist?
Great. Please prove to me that Santa doesn't exist.

Atheist philosophers have presented arguments against the probability of God's existence for centuries. In my admittedly limited experience, atheists in this forum tend not to do so for whatever reason.

Having said that, the Bible does say "Ask and you shall receive" - and, more importantly, the Bible shows many cases of people praying and having their prayers answered; and more importantly than that, the Christian culture that we are surrounded by encourages prayer and expects at least some level of success in getting answers. Take a look, for example, at Prayer Wall

We've had a discussion about the Bible's teaching on prayer elsewhere in this thread. There's no point in repeating it here. I agree that Christians pray with at least some hope of receiving an answer. And while the Bible shows cases of answered prayers, it also shows cases of unanswered prayers (e.g. 2 Corinthians 12:7-12).

(1) Most Christians are, in fact, Christians because they were raised that way. It's not a fallacy to point this out.
(2) I never say "You're wrong because you're an idiot. It's against forum rules to do so.
(3) Atheists may be guilty of sloppy reasoning, but their essential arguments are sound. Generally speaking, atheists lack belief in God because of insufficient evidence. This is perfectly rational. If you think there is evidence that God exists, I'd love to hear it.

1. The genetic fallacy involves arguing that a belief is false because of how someone came to hold that belief. And yes, atheists (although perhaps not you) commit it frequently.
2. I never accused you in particular of saying this. In other places on the internet where it's not against the rules, atheists say it and things like it all the time.
3. I trust you're familiar with the arguments for God's existence. If you don't find them convincing, nothing I can say will change that.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

You make bold assumptions that prayer fails because you want something without giving anything. Do you also operate this way in real life? Do you earn or do you just hold out your hand? I'm curious to know.

Isn't grace one of the key components of Christianity? You're getting something that you absolutely do not deserve whatsoever.

It's funny that Christians are the ones who rail against socialism.

 

[cvanwey]

Why do you come here and show us your bad side? You have zero chance of shaking anyones faith. I'm sure you know we laugh at you for the lame attempts. Be truthful and tell us all what your goal is.

I think you do believe but don't want to follow. It is your choice.

- Maybe he likes debating people whom demonstrate clear and present cognitive dissonance?
- Maybe he comes here in the hopes that others, whom do not engage themselves, will get something out of it, when reading along?
- Maybe he used to be a Christian, and is curious why others still believe; in spite of poor arguments?
- Maybe he uses this debate platform to keep himself sharp?
- Maybe he remains curious as to why others believe what they believe?
- Maybe he likes to present topics here to broaden his current horizons, in the hopes someone will offer up a response he has yet to hear?
- Maybe he's bored?

But I doubt he is a believer in hiding?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

This from a guy who says Christians are just like children who believe in Santa, dismissing or rationalizing away evidence and arguments they don't like because it goes against their beliefs. The entire thread you started was condescending, my friend. However, I should not have been condescending in response, so if I came across that way, I apologize.

That was a handsome apology, so thank you.
I have to disagree with you, though, that this thread is condescending. Playful, tongue-in-cheek and suitable for the season, yes. But also making a serious point. And the point is this one:
You say that both Christians and atheists should raise their game, and avoid making at least the most gross and obvious logical fallacies. Fair enough, I agree with you. And while I am sure each of us thinks we are correct and the other side is completely wrong, I am sure you have seen Christians make sloppy or unfair arguments, and I have seen atheists do the same - and done so myself.

So I agree with you that it would be good to see some mistakes in debating corrected. Let's take a look at what you said.

You said - correct me if I'm wrong - that atheists should provide arguments against the existence of God. Is that right? You are saying that it is the atheist's job to prove, or at least to provide good evidence to think, that God does not exist?

Well, that strikes me as fallacious reasoning. And my response to it, in this thread, is a challenge. Can you prove that Santa Claus does not exist? Because if you believe it is my job to disprove your beliefs, perhaps you would like to try disproving mine.

And when you have tried and failed, you will, I hope, realise your mistake in saying that the burden of proof is on atheists to prove that God does not exist. Because this is an argument I have seen Christians make often - very, very often. And if they realise their mistake, the forums will be the better for it.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I agree and never meant to imply otherwise. I would add that the stakes in this debate could not be higher.



Atheist philosophers have presented arguments against the probability of God's existence for centuries. In my admittedly limited experience, atheists in this forum tend not to do so for whatever reason.



We've had a discussion about the Bible's teaching on prayer elsewhere in this thread. There's no point in repeating it here. I agree that Christians pray with at least some hope of receiving an answer. And while the Bible shows cases of answered prayers, it also shows cases of unanswered prayers (e.g. 2 Corinthians 12:7-12).



1. The genetic fallacy involves arguing that a belief is false because of how someone came to hold that belief. And yes, atheists (although perhaps not you) commit it frequently.
2. I never accused you in particular of saying this. In other places on the internet where it's not against the rules, atheists say it and things like it all the time.
3. I trust you're familiar with the arguments for God's existence. If you don't find them convincing, nothing I can say will change that.

Thank you for this. I don't think there's a great deal here which requires response, and look forward to your answer to the challenge of this thread, stated in the OP.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

You make bold assumptions that prayer fails because you want something without giving anything. Do you also operate this way in real life? Do you earn or do you just hold out your hand? I'm curious to know.

Bold assumptions, you say? And then you accuse me of wanting something without giving anything without knowing anything about me? That goes beyond bold assumptions and into outright strawmanning.

How about you address the OP? Nobody's managed to successfully do so yet. Perhaps you can.