Can you prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist?

[InterestedAtheist]

Why do you come here and show us your bad side? You have zero chance of shaking anyones faith. I'm sure you know we laugh at you for the lame attempts. Be truthful and tell us all what your goal is.

I think you do believe but don't want to follow. It is your choice.

Sigh. What on Earth are you talking about?
We're trying to have a serious discussion here. If you're interested in it, please address the OP.

 

[mama2one]

Nobody's managed to successfully do so yet.

beg to differ....post #35

once again Santa was a no show!
not at our house & not in neighborhood

I stayed up the whole night
we had snow & no tracks on rooftops...none

 

[klutedavid]

It's that time of year again! Merry Christmas, one and all.

In my experience of debating Christians - stretching back over a good few years - I have often encountered the argument (either stated directly indirectly) that I have to disprove God's existence in order to maintain my atheist stance. As in, "Can you prove that God doesn't exist? No? Then how can you say you're an atheist?"

In this festive season, I think it's worth revisiting the character of Father Christmas, and considering what he has to teach us.

So here's my question. Can you prove that Santa Claus does not exist?
And as a follow-up: if you can't disprove his existence, is it therefore logical of me to maintain my belief that he does exist?

(Disclaimer - for the purposes of this thread only, I shall be a believer in Santa Claus).

I have seen Santa with my own eyes. I can assure you that he exists.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Jesus didn't "change his mind" about wanting to be taken off the cross. God the Father said no, which is completely different.

I think before we go any further on this, I'd like you to post the verses you're referring to.

As for prayer meaning "nothing" since it has to be in accordance with God's will to be answered, this misconstrues the point of prayer. The point is not to push a button and get whatever we want as if God were a divine vending machine. He's not and doesn't claim to be. The point of asking for things in prayer is to show our faith in and reliance on God. As the Bible says, he already knows our needs and desires before we pray, so it's not like we need to bring them to his attention or he'll miss them.

That may be the point for you. But from the point of view of a debate on the validity of prayer, your argument shows that prayers mean nothing. If you get what you prayed for, yay, God answered your prayer. If you don't get what you prayed for, yay, God answered your prayer - with "no" or "later".

Can you see how, from the point of view of a person who doesn't believe God exists, the "Yes/No/Later" argument makes the act of praying meaningless?

Not to mention the obvious logical error your comment shows us. You're quite right, God does know exactly what you want. So why are Christians praying to Him asking Him for things? Take a look at the link, and you'll see plenty of petitionary "please give me this" prayer. If God wanted them to have these things, then they already would.

In any event, I've explained to you what I (and every Christian I've ever talked to or read) think the Bible as a whole teaches about prayer.

Sure you have. It's just that I don't think your ideas are consistent with the Bible.
The Bible - as I illustrated above - shows that you can have whatever you pray for. That's what it says, as I've already shown:

“If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” —Matthew 21:22 (NIV)

“Ask and it will be given to you…. For everyone who asks receives.” —Luke 11:9-10 (NIV)

“Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.” —Matthew 18:19 (NIV)

Now, you are free to say "other parts of the Bible disagree with this," but all that shows is that the Bible contains contradictions.
You are not, I'm afraid, free to say "therefore your point is wrong," because how do we know the other parts of the Bible are wrong? You can't choose whichever interpretation best suits your argument.
Now obviously, the promises made in the Bible about prayer are false. But so what? You can't say "this doesn't happen, therefore these obviously aren't meant literally." On what basis do you say that?
Quite simply:
1. The Bible promises that you can have whatever you ask for in prayer.
2. The Bible is wrong.
You can't say "These verses must mean something else, because otherwise the Bible would be wrong."
Because, well, maybe the Bible simply is wrong. This is a debating forum. Assuming that you are right in order to prove yourself right is a logical fallacy.

You're free to disagree. But note that if you claim the Bible's teaching on prayer is "inconsistent," you can't also claim it teaches that all prayers will be answered, and so Christians are silly for continuing to believe in God when their prayers aren't answered.

Good point! Apparently the Bible teaches contradictory things, and Christians simply choose which they will believe - or, it might be more accurate to say, make up their own interpretation to reconcile what the Bible says with what they experience.

At best, all you can claim is that you don't know what the Bible teaches on prayer because of the alleged inconsistencies. If that's the case, you have little grounds for trying to score debate points with Christians by pointing to unanswered prayer.

Logically, yes, but experientially no. Let me put it like this:
If I were to tell you that I have a dice, and explain that it sometimes rolls different numbers, with a 1/6 probaility of any particular number each time, and you asked to see it.
Say I rolled a 3, 1, 4, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 2, 3, 2, 4.
And you might say, "Hey, your dice isn't working right. It hasn't rolled a 6!"
"Be patient," I might say. "You can't get what you want all the time."
I rolled the dice some more.
2, 3, 2, 1, 4, 5, 3, 5, 2, 4, 2, 1, 1, 3.
At what point do you say "Look, I know it's never certain it'll roll a 6, but aren't we expecting it to do so at some point?"

And so it is with prayer. God isn't a vending machine? Not in a test tube? Not a magic lamp. Okay. I can swallow that. It goes against what the Bible explicitly says (see above) but let's go with what you say for the moment.
But you do say God loves you, and wishes to aid you, as a loving father would. At least, I have seen this said many times, and it seems reasonable, based on the picture of God in the Bible and Christian folklore. I assume you would agree with it.
Well, then, if God does answer all prayers with "Yes" "No" or "Later" - where are the yeses?
Where are the answered prayers?
Because I've been asking for quite a while now. And, as you can see from my signature, I have yet to see something that constitutes an answer to a prayer that could not be explained by simple chance. And if Christians are right about the Bible's teachings being wrong; if God does sometimes answer prayers with yeses, then we should see some evidence of this.
Where is it?

Speaking of debates, I see no point in continuing this one because you've obviously made up your mind.

I wouldn't be so quick to claim victory if I were you. Just a word to the wise.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I have seen Santa with my own eyes. I can assure you that he exists.

Wow! Strong evidence indeed.
I wonder if your fellow Christians will believe you. I do, of course.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

beg to differ....post #35

once again Santa was a no show!
not at our house & not in neighborhood

I stayed up the whole night
we had snow & no tracks on rooftops...none

I'm so sorry!
Still, @klutedavid says he has seen Santa. So now will you believe?
I mean, if he said he'd seen a vision of Jesus, you'd believe that, right?

 

[mama2one]

after @klutedavid changed his avatar from the cute sheep, don't believe a word he says

 

[InterestedAtheist]

after @klutedavid changed his avatar from the cute sheep, don't believe a word he says

That seems rather extreme.

 

[Reasonable Christian]

I wouldn't be so quick to claim victory if I were you. Just a word to the wise.

I never claimed "victory," whatever that means in this context. Putting words in people's mouths is bad manners on the internet (just a word to the wise). I have explained to you what the Bible teaches about the nature and meaning of prayer, and you have rejected my explanations. That's fine, but frankly I don't need lessons in Biblical exegesis from an atheist who presupposes that God doesn't exist and then selectively interprets the Bible in a way that fits his presupposition. I could offer you plenty of examples of answered prayer in my own life and in the lives of others, but you would simply dismiss all of them as coincidences, so I won't bother. I thus am tired of this discussion because you, by all appearances, have in fact made up your mind and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. You're welcome to it.

Cheers. (Unwatch)

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I never claimed "victory," whatever that means in this context. Putting words in people's mouths is bad manners on the internet (just a word to the wise).

You have a point there. I apologise.

I have explained to you what the Bible teaches about the nature and meaning of prayer, and you have rejected my explanations.

Well, yes. Because I disagreed with them, and explained why.

That's fine, but frankly I don't need lessons in Biblical exegesis from an atheist who presupposes that God doesn't exist and then selectively interprets the Bible in a way that fits his presupposition.

I think some Christians tend to get annoyed when atheists correct them or point out their mistakes.

I could offer you plenty of examples of answered prayer in my own life and in the lives of others, but you would simply dismiss all of them as coincidences, so I won't bother.

Ah. Tried it before, have you?

I thus am tired of this discussion because you, by all appearances, have in fact made up your mind and simply want to argue for the sake of arguing. You're welcome to it.

My position is a strictly rational one. My beliefs are formed with evidence, logic and reason. If fresh evidence is presented, I will revise my beliefs.

Cheers. (Unwatch)

Another Christian unable to meet the "Can you prove Santa does not exist?" challenge.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I've yet to meet a real Christian. They don't believe there is a god. They are just seeking out something that says there is one so there'll be someone to forgive them. They know that they will cease to exist in the end but they hold out hope that that isn't true. My suggestion to them would be to stop being lazy and wasting the precious little bit of time they have start living a fulfilling life.

Sounds insulting doesn't it.

Thank you, Tinker!
Funnily enough, I started a thread a while back which had some profitable discussion. It was about whether Christians really do believe what they say or not, since their actions don't seem to line up with their beliefs.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Thank you, Tinker!
Funnily enough, I started a thread a while back which had some profitable discussion. It was about whether Christians really do believe what they say or not, since their actions don't seem to line up with their beliefs.

Well, I was just parodying the included quote.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Well, I was just parodying the included quote.

And very expertly! Good point, well made.

 

[Tinker Grey]

And very expertly! Good point, well made.

Thanks.

 

[Arc F1]

Sigh. What on Earth are you talking about?
We're trying to have a serious discussion here. If you're interested in it, please address the OP.

Proverbs 19:29
New King James Version

29 Judgments are prepared for scoffers,
And beatings for the backs of fools.

 

[Arc F1]

I've yet to meet a real Christian. They don't believe there is a god. They are just seeking out something that says there is one so there'll be someone to forgive them. They know that they will cease to exist in the end but they hold out hope that that isn't true. My suggestion to them would be to stop being lazy and wasting the precious little bit of time they have start living a fulfilling life.

Sounds insulting doesn't it.

My comment was meant to be insulting. I not hiding anything. I'm not embarrassed of my beliefs. Scripture says "beatings are for the backs of fools." If the Bible calls out scoffers as fools I have no problem saying the same and treating them as such.

Coming into a Christian forum as an atheist that only wants to spread doubt instead of learning is an insult.

 

[Tinker Grey]

My comment was meant to be insulting. I not hiding anything. I'm not embarrassed of my beliefs. Scripture says "beatings are for the backs of fools." If the Bible calls out scoffers as fools I have no problem saying the same and treating them as such.

Coming into a Christian forum as an atheist that only wants to spread doubt instead of learning is an insult.

You pretending to know other's motivations is an insult. You pretending to know that all atheists are lying is an insult. Send your mind-reading helmet back for a refund.

 

[Arc F1]

You pretending to know other's motivations is an insult. You pretending to know that all atheists are lying is an insult. Send your mind-reading helmet back for a refund.

The warranty ran out. I can't send it back. Sorry.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

My comment was meant to be insulting. I not hiding anything. I'm not embarrassed of my beliefs. Scripture says "beatings are for the backs of fools." If the Bible calls out scoffers as fools I have no problem saying the same and treating them as such.

Coming into a Christian forum as an atheist that only wants to spread doubt instead of learning is an insult.

If your comment was meant to be insulting, you are breaking forum rules. Christians and non-Christians alike, we are all enjoined to treat each other with courtesy.
This forum was set up for nonbelievers to present challenges to the Christian faith, and for Christians to do their best to address them with logical arguments.
Please review the rules of this forum and try your best to follow them.

 

[Arc F1]

If your comment was meant to be insulting, you are breaking forum rules. Christians and non-Christians alike, we are all enjoined to treat each other with courtesy.
This forum was set up for nonbelievers to present challenges to the Christian faith, and for Christians to do their best to address them with logical arguments.
Please review the rules of this forum and try your best to follow them.

As I stated I follow scripture. God is the higher authority. The Bible is clear about scoffers and I tend to agree with what it says. Should I deny my faith because you say it's against the rules? What kind of Christian would do that?