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Can you prove that Santa Claus doesn't exist?

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.Mikha'el.

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It's that time of year again! Merry Christmas, one and all.

In my experience of debating Christians - stretching back over a good few years - I have often encountered the argument (either stated directly indirectly) that I have to disprove God's existence in order to maintain my atheist stance. As in, "Can you prove that God doesn't exist? No? Then how can you say you're an atheist?"

In this festive season, I think it's worth revisiting the character of Father Christmas, and considering what he has to teach us.

So here's my question. Can you prove that Santa Claus does not exist?
And as a follow-up: if you can't disprove his existence, is it therefore logical of me to maintain my belief that he does exist?

(Disclaimer - for the purposes of this thread only, I shall be a believer in Santa Claus).

Structly from a logic perspective, it's extremely difficult to prove a negative statement. There's just no evidence for his existence.
 
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no sir, you wrote post #55
my post is #35 where I gave proof Santa does not exist per title of thread
Proof that Santa does not exist? You call that proof? As a devout Santaist, such objections are easy to answer. Maybe Santa knew it was best not to give you a present. Maybe Santa did give you a present but you didn't realise it because it wasn't the one you were looking for. Maybe you hadn't been sufficiently good that year. Maybe your letter to Santa - you did write a letter to him? - wasn't written in the correct way.

no idea why you turned my post into an off topic post
I did not write post #55
my post #35 has nothing to do with your post #55
do not change my words into something I did not write
(Dropping out of Santaist character for a moment)
All I did was repeat your words and show how they could be - and often have been - used to defend God in Christian apologetics, often in this very forum.
Your post 35 has everything to do with post 55. You precisely mimicked an atheist argument against prayer and got back the standard Christian response.
"How can Santa be real if he never have me a present?"
"How can God be real if He never answered my prayers? "

I really think this thread is making the point very well.
Do you get it? All I'm doing is mirroring Christianity back to you. If you think it doesn't make much sense, well, I have to agree with you.

if you want to write a post about prayers, start a new thread about prayers
We are talking about prayers. You're explaining to me why unanswered prayers to Santa prove Santa does not exist, and I'm showing you how I can use the same arguments that Christians use about God to show that you're wrong, and that Santa does exist.
Just to highlight that point: I am using Christian arguments to show that Santa exists.

could discuss that topic as God has answered prayers for many people I personally know
I'm sure. And I know of many, many people who have written letters to Santa, and had them answered.

Perhaps you'd rather stop discussing this now? I think we've made the point, and I have no desire to press you.
 
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Structly from a logic perspective, it's extremely difficult to prove a negative statement. There's just no evidence for his existence.
Perhaos. But should we you take a strictly logical approach to all such situations?
If someone comes up to you and tells you that the tooth fairy really exists, do you say, "Well, maybe so; we just can't tell, can we?"

There are, of course, very good reasons to be skeptical of the Santa Story. The problem is, many of them are also good reasons to be skeptical of Christianity.
 
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mama2one

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I'm showing you how I can use the same arguments that Christians use about God to show that you're wrong, and that Santa does exist.
Just to highlight that point: I am using Christian arguments to show that Santa exists.

so you DO believe in God

since you now say Santa exists, you're in essence saying God exists
(going by all your arguments in this particular thread)
 
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so you DO believe in God

since you now say Santa exists, you're in essence saying God exists
(going by all your arguments in this particular thread)
Well, that might be true if I actually was a Santaist! ;)
I am actually on record - starting with the OP - as saying that I'm just playing the part of someone who believes in Santa, for the purposes of this thread.

You, on the other hand, do believe in God. Can I take it, then, that you have now genuinely started to believe in Santa?
 
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I think now might be a good time to wrap up this thread. Maybe there will be new ideas next year.

I'd just like to add this at the end:

Jesus and Santa: a Parable on How We Dismiss Evidence

It was early December, and little Jerry had begun to doubt the existence of Santa Claus. He made his case to his younger brother Scott.

“I don’t think Santa is real. I think it’s just Mom and Dad buying us presents,” Jerry said.

“Prove it,” Scott said.

“Okay, why are there all those Santas on the street corners ringing for money? How can Santa be at all those stores at once?”

“They’re not the real Santa, just his helpers,” Scott said. “And maybe they’re just testing us to see if we’ll still believe. I’m going to believe, because if you don’t, you don’t get presents.”

“But I recognized one of them—it was the father of one of my friends.”

“Then those are just ordinary people imitating Santa, raising money for a good cause. Anyway, I’ve seen Santa on TV at Thanksgiving—everyone has.”

Jerry sees that he’s not making any progress, so he gives up. On Christmas afternoon, he’s alone with Scott and tries again. “Remember that video game that you told Mom about and then you forgot to tell Santa?” Jerry said. “But you got it anyway. Mom must’ve bought it and written on the package that it came from Santa.”


“Mom just told Santa,” Scott said.

“Then tell me this: how can Santa get around the world in one night?”

“My friends all say that Santa is real. Anyway, Santa has magic. And the cookies we leave out for Santa are always gone on Christmas morning.”

“With the Junior Detective kit that I got this morning, I dusted the cookie plate for fingerprints, and they were Mom’s.”

“So what? Mom set out the plate, and Santa wears gloves.”

Jerry gives up for the year. On Christmas afternoon the next year, he tries again. “Lots of the older kids don’t believe in Santa. They say that their presents only come from their parents.”

“Sure,” Scott said. “Santa only gives presents to those who still believe in him.”

“A few months ago, I was snooping in Dad’s sock drawer, and I found every letter we ever wrote to Santa.”


“Why not? Santa didn’t need them anymore and each year just gives them to Mom and Dad for keepsakes.”

“The only fingerprints on our presents were Mom’s or Dad’s.”

“Mom and Dad always get up early on Christmas. They could’ve rearranged them.”

“Last week, I found all our presents hidden in a corner in the attic.” Jerry pawed through some of the torn wrapping paper. “I wrote my initials on the bottom of each package. And look—here they are. That proves that Santa didn’t bring them here last night.”

“I asked Mom, and she said that Santa is real. Anyway, how do I know you didn’t write your initials on the wrapping paper this morning?”

Do adults make the same mistakes?

Like little Scott, if you’re determined to believe something, you can rationalize away any unwelcome evidence. (By rationalize, I mean taking an idea as fact and then selecting or interpreting all relevant evidence to make it support that immutable given.)


Christians rationalize, too. They rationalize away contradictions in the Bible, the oddity of a hidden God, or why so much bad happens to the people God loves. They can find a dozen reasons why a particular prayer wasn’t answered, even though the Bible promises, “Ask and ye shall receive.” But the Christian will say that they’re simply defending the truth—they’re not rationalizing; they’re right.

In five minutes we can see flaws in others that we don’t see in ourselves in a lifetime. Perhaps this episode with Jerry and Scott will encourage us to see our own rationalizations.
 
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Reasonable Christian

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Do adults make the same mistakes?

Like little Scott, if you’re determined to believe something, you can rationalize away any unwelcome evidence. (By rationalize, I mean taking an idea as fact and then selecting or interpreting all relevant evidence to make it support that immutable given.)


Christians rationalize, too. They rationalize away contradictions in the Bible, the oddity of a hidden God, or why so much bad happens to the people God loves. They can find a dozen reasons why a particular prayer wasn’t answered, even though the Bible promises, “Ask and ye shall receive.” But the Christian will say that they’re simply defending the truth—they’re not rationalizing; they’re right.

In five minutes we can see flaws in others that we don’t see in ourselves in a lifetime. Perhaps this episode with Jerry and Scott will encourage us to see our own rationalizations.

Yes, Christians make these mistakes. But you know what? So do atheists, including InterestedAtheist. They rationalize away unwelcome evidence for God's existence because they're determined not to believe in him, summarily declaring whatever evidence is presented to be inadequate. (Yep, we can psychoanalyze you too.) They take all of their ideas as facts, rarely presenting affirmative arguments for why they don't believe in God, which is different than proving he doesn't exist. After dismissing or rationalizing away all of the evidence for God's existence, they then declare God to be "hidden."

As InterestedAtheist did in his post above, they misquote the Bible all the time, or quote it out of context to make it say something it doesn't mean. For the record, the Bible does NOT say that bad things will never happen to the people God loves or that all prayers will be answered. In fact, it says the opposite of both.

They routinely commit the genetic fallacy ("You're only a Christian because you were raised that way"), the ad hominem fallacy ("Christians are idiots"), and too many other logical fallacies to list here. And you know what? So do theists/Christians, including variations of "The Bible is true because the Bible says so" (begging the question). Christians, stop saying stuff like that.

And while there are a few contradictions in the Bible -- at least in the copies we have -- none of them impacts central Christian theology. Plus, most of the "contradictions" people bring up are not actual contradictions -- i.e., two statements that are logically incompatible, such as declaring that A and -A are simultaneously true in the same way at the same time.

The point is, we all need to step up our game: atheists, agnostics, and theists alike. The discussions in this forum would be a lot more enlightening if we did.
 
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zippy2006

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The point is, we all need to step up our game: atheists, agnostics, and theists alike. The discussions in this forum would be a lot more enlightening if we did.

The problem is that the forum becomes more and more polemical by design. Constructive forums like "Philosophy" and "Christianity and World Religions" have been shut down with little or no explanation, and we are left with "Christian Apologetics" which literally only allows debate between Christians and atheists. If a Christian argues with a Christian they are in violation of the rules. "Ethics and Morality" is still good while it lasts, but the factionalism that is built into Christian Forums is taking a toll on "outreach." It seems to me that we are at the end of a long decline.
 
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Reasonable Christian

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The problem is that the forum becomes more and more polemical by design. Constructive forums like "Philosophy" and "Christianity and World Religions" have been shut down with little or no explanation, and we are left with "Christian Apologetics" which literally only allows debate between Christians and atheists. If a Christian argues with a Christian they are in violation of the rules. "Ethics and Morality" is still good while it lasts, but the factionalism that is built into Christian Forums is taking a toll on "outreach." It seems to me that we are at the end of a long decline.

Christians and non-Christians (the forum isn't limited to just Christians and atheists) can have reasonable discussions free of acrimony, logical fallacies, etc., if (1) they are willing to do so, and (2) they educate themselves on the basics of logical reasoning and the subjects under discussion.
 
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You turn on the news and believe what you are told with absolutely no proof. You read a paper or book and believe. Everyday you are presented with information that you have no way of confirming and you have faith that those people are telling you the truth.

Why do you hesitate to believe what the Bible says?

I just got the craziest "Fox News is too liberal for me" vibes from reading this.

Anyway, if CNN said that a donkey spoke to the guy riding it because an invisible entity was lying in wait to kill him, I would no longer consider CNN to be a news source.
 
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Arc F1

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Because these are exactly the kinds of things that Christians say when atheists ask why their prayers weren't answered.

There are several reasons why a prayer isn't answered. God's will and lack of faith are the first things that come to mind. When you pray you must go on with no doubt and as if it has already been answered. Very few can achieve that level. This isn't a game. It's takes hard work and dedication to be found worthy of serving.
 
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I just got the craziest "Fox News is too liberal for me" vibes from reading this.

Anyway, if CNN said that a donkey spoke to the guy riding it because an invisible entity was lying in wait to kill him, I would no longer consider CNN to be a news source.

I don't think that was what I was trying to say but ok.
 
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Reasonable Christian

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There are several reasons why a prayer isn't answered. God's will and lack of faith are the first things that come to mind. When you pray you must go on with no doubt and as if it has already been answered. Very few can achieve that level. This isn't a game. It's takes hard work and dedication to be found worthy of serving.

And you'll note the implicit argument: When an atheist asks, "Why wasn't your prayer answered?" and expects the Christian to offer a justification, the atheist is making the implicit claim that the prayer should have been answered. Instead of trying to justify to the atheist why God didn't answer it, which is a losing proposition, the Christian should just make the atheist prove their claim that God was somehow required to. The atheist won't be able to do that, and the discussion will be over.
 
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And you'll note the implicit argument: When an atheist asks, "Why wasn't your prayer answered?" and expects the Christian to offer a justification, the atheist is making the implicit claim that the prayer should have been answered. Instead of trying to justify to the atheist why God didn't answer it, which is a losing proposition, the Christian should just make the atheist prove their claim that God was somehow required to. The atheist won't be able to do that, and the discussion will be over.

John 14:13-14
 
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Reasonable Christian

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John 14:13-14

Asking in Jesus' name means asking for something that's in accordance with God's will, not for just anything (1 John 5:14). See also other verses on prayer. The Bible has to be read as a whole; you can't just pick an individual verse out of context.
 
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Asking in Jesus' name means asking for something that's in accordance with God's will, not for just anything (1 John 5:14). See also other verses on prayer. The Bible has to be read as a whole; you can't just pick an individual verse out of context.

Obviously. Did you think I thought God would give us stuff contrary to his will? Do you seriously think you've debunked my point with this response? What you've done is a typical apologetics tactic. Give a lousy response as a punt, and then when you get called out for it, just dust off your hands and quote the "pearls before swine" passage... out of context.
 
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Reasonable Christian

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Obviously. Did you think I thought God would give us stuff contrary to his will? Do you seriously think you've debunked my point with this response? What you've done is a typical apologetics tactic. Give a lousy response as a punt, and then when you get called out for it, just dust off your hands and quote the "pearls before swine" passage... out of context.

You didn't make an explicit point with your response. You cited a Bible verse. I assumed it was in response to what I wrote (which you quoted). I wrote that God isn't obligated to answer everyone's prayers. The verse you cited did not rebut that point. Do you have another point you'd like to make?
 
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