I'll tell you what, I did a somewhat detailed exegesis on the text in question. I challenge you to directly refute what I have stated.
Please don't give me an article written by someone else. You presented this great resume of all the studies you have done, and even written, but now resort to an article written by another ...
That isn't debating, that is shoving me off without a single direct answer to anything I have presented.
Furthermore, you directly stated that apostacy was spoken of in verse one; and you now have nothing to defend that claim but the works of another man.
Are you actually qualified to have the debate YOU CHALLENGED ME to, or can you only direct me to the words of another?
Under your name (gradyII) it reads, "logical debater - for better: or for worse)
I would say this qualifies for "worse".
You tell me "Because of the sheer length of the errors in these posts, I do not have time to reply"; yet you ramble on in you answers that have NOTHING to do with the text in question.
I'm sorry, but I have broken down you response, and absolutely refuted it using the Word of God.
You have two choices, Step up to the plate and actually participate in the debate YOU CHALLENGED ME TO, with YOUR OWN WORDS; or simply step down and admit you are not as qualified in this as your RESUME proclaims you to be.
Again THESE are YOUR OWN WORDS:
Post #81
If I didn't work, or have a family, or have responsibilities in life, I may have time to respond to your post. I gave an article that entirely refutes everything you said. And for other users here who want to know more about that article it's right here:
I apologize that I don't have time to refute all errors posted, but you will have to take my word that I simply don't have time. I know you worked hard on it, and that is commendable. Even if it was in error.
at this point I will repost all the verses that were unrefuted:
I can repeat verses that you don't address, and/or address wrongly as well as provide several logical reasons for apostacy in the church logically speaking. Now I would ask that since you have lots of time, that you do bullet points and adress each section. As this will cause you to truly read and ponder the material.
This is the topic that was recently brought up...
do you believe someone who has unbelief that turns them away from God is by definition (never saved?)
as in this verse:
Heb 3:12 " See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."
if yes, you would be correct in believing what the verse says.
Then why is he warning believers not to have unbelief with turns away from God?
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The parable of the sewer makes sense if you have a belief in apostacy: M
atthew 12 verse 21 and 22 talk about receiving the word with joy, but not getting rooted. They were saved, they were a living plant, yet it perished because it lacked roots. Some fell among thorns, and the weeds choked them. Meaning that they cared more about the world than about God and left the faith. verses 8, 23. In contrast the true convert bears fruit, some sixty, some 100 fold.
The parable of the sewer talks about gospel seeds falling on ground:
“Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.
Mat 13:6
“But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.
Mat 13:7
“And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.
Mat 13:8
“But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Mat 13:9
“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”
Mat 13:18
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and part three:
When we become saved, we desire to be holy, that is all that verse is saying in
1 john 3:9. The way I know that it's not talking about free will, is that we still sin, even though it says we won't sin. Do you sin? Do you look with lust at another woman? Do you see a picture of victoria secret, when going through the mall, and stare a little too long? Don't worry I am not judging. I am just saying that we still sin, even though the verse says we won't. So it's not talking about free will. It's talking about sanctification which is a cooperation where we slowly give our will up for His will in our lives. We never fully give it up, but this is a weakness we have. If we could fully give up our free will, we would have no sin, or flesh. But we do have a sinful flesh still. So in conclusion it helps to know the greek there, it is I believe talking about "present continual sin." Something that we do regularly, that we have not repented of. inappropriate contentography is a great one to enter here. 80 percent of christian males are addicted to inappropriate content. Yet that verse says we will not continue in sin. So why are we continuing in sin? I believe that someone addicted to inappropriate content, does it, repents of it, does it again, repents of it. They are not continuing in it, because they are repenting all the while. They don't have victory over the sin, but they are not continually sinning. Now if ever a person starts to shrug off the shame of that sin, and decides to stop repenting of it, then there is a red flag. That sin gains a foothold. And as the Bible says, a little leaven leavens the whole loaf. That small singular sin grows and grows in the heart. Slowly it consumes the entire marriage, and a divorce is filed. Then the person still does not repent, and this issue plagues the next marriage. and a third and a fourth, all because the singular sin. That sin has caused death. Now also sin can deceive, say that sin becomes so fun and alluring that we no longer are ashamed of it, but we start to embrace and celebrate it. Jesus becomes a bitter topic to us. Who does that Jesus think He is to forbid such extasy? He must not want me to have fun, and by the way the Bible has a lot of contradiction anyway. I am not sure I believe in Jesus anymore. I have forfeited my salvation and the love of my life, all for a fantasy woman I can never have. This is the deception that sin can have in our lives. That is why we must repent of all known sin, and never give them a foot hold. And even pray to God that He reveal sin in our lives. God gave us the perfect prayer "deliver us not into temptation." Because God knew that victory was available. But we must ask for it.
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I had the hardest time in the past with the logistics of apostacy. I believed OSAS. Once saved always saved. Until someone gave me a message by Jon courson on Hebrews 6. In 1997 I listened to it. I dove into the Greek all night. He was correct. There was nothing in the Greek that could save my view of OSAS. I was forever changed. See I got saved in a Calvinistic church and that is why I believed OSAS, not because of the Bible. See article below, this is a congressional candidate that says he is a pedophile. Now if this guy was saved at your church, led to Christ by you, so you knew it was genuine. Repented of sex outside of marriage when he was saved. Prayed regularly and evangelized for over ten years Converting sinners. Did a small group bible study. Later had a family, and became a pastor of a non denomination. But still had a problem with kiddy inappropriate content. This small sin, leavened the whole loaf. He llost his marriage and his pastoriate, he molested his kids, the judge gave custody to the wife so he could never see his kids. He started a website, "pedophiles who believe in Jesus." He started a new church in san franscisco of pedophiles in castro district, he wrote a book to promote christian pedophilia. You would assume he was never saved because of your theological bias, because no christian would do such a thing. Yet it happens every day. An evangelist that travelled with Billy Graham rejected the faith after decades of being saved. Anyway back to the other guy..... But "things that accompany salvation" were in his life. He sprouted and brought many into the kingdom. Hundreds of genuine repentant converts. Yet he had a small addictive sin that leavened the whole loaf. He was addicted to child inappropriate contentography, and rather than dealing with it, getting counseling and accountability partners he decided to open a church of christian pedophiles. Now i know you would normally believe he was never save but because you led him to christ, and seen him evangelize for ten years, you knew he understood and accepted Jesus and the gospel fully. But sin leavened the whole loaf. It was not that his sin was unforgivable l, it was that he no longer was ashamed of his sin, became proud of it, taught it publically. That one sin caused him to doubt his faith and the accuracy of the bible. Why would Jesus forbid him from loving a child in this way? He starts to hate Jesus, and loathe christianity, again all because of one sin. Note the themes doubting drifting, departing, all critical subsection headings of hebrews chapters 1-5 leading up to apostacy of hebrews chapter 6.That is a sign of an unregenerate. Here is the article. This story is not far fetched:
Congressional Candidate In Virginia Admits He’s A Pedophile
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Ok so here you have catholic priests raping children. Ok, I am not saying they are apostates, as there may be some type of bondage to sin here, and addiction of sort. But if there is no shame, and if the pope says that it is ok, and good, then you have a problem. I didn't read the whole article, but I presume they are saying if a priest has a problem that they can get help and they don't lose their job right away. I would question that ethic personally, I would think that they should not be around children at all. In california if you are a predator, you have it on your record and you are actually on a sexual predator map in the city. You cannot get a job around children, and I don't think you can live a quarter mile from any parks or schools. and I agree with all of that stuff. So I am a bit saddened over the pope's view of this. Why should the unsaved be protecting our kids more than the church?
U.N. Report: Vatican Policies Allowed Priests To Rape Children