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I wanted to change the first few paragraphs of this thread for the confustion that resulted from what I said below: first let me say this about salvation, we are all eternally secure. Now let me talk about the rest of this:
Apostacy can happen but it is not a performance issue. It's not sin or anything else that can remove salvation. But sin can deceive us into forfeiting our own secure fortress of salvation. That is why some verses seem to talk about security and others seem to say that God tosses those who bear no fruit in the fire. Both are true! It's a balance. This is probably the hardest topic in christianity to understand, and most seminaries have it wrong. Most either error on the side of OSAS or error on the side that sin can cause you to lose salvation. Neither are true. Jesus paid for our sin on the cross, sin is no longer an issue for our salvation. But sin can deceive us, not God. God's end of the issue is done and settled, but our faith can be changed due to wanting to justify our sin. For example if I love having sex with a girl that is not my wife, I may want to justify that sin in my mind, then eventually I start to loathe all those who say it's wrong, including Jesus. Eventually that bitterness grows into doubt. A little leaven, leavens the whole loaf. And I have shipwrecked my faith. God always was willing to save me, but I decided not to endorse the check personally speaking. My name was not cancelled out of the Book of life, because I believe that happens at the end of our lives. One was still genuinely saved, but now they no longer believe Jesus was God's son or savior. God will not grant salvation any longer to such a person. As in the curse of balaam, God's people have cursed themselves. See Balaam could not curse God's people externally, but He tempted them in a separate way, to lead them into adultery with mideanite women. They tried to curse God's people three times from the outside, it was impossible. And only resulted in blessing them. However He was able to lead them into forfeiting the blessing themselves. I think that is a perfect example of apostacy. However in the case of salvation, no sin will cause salvation to be lost, accept one. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It is when I believe in Jesus or I don't either one, but I am not willing to trust Him with my salvation, and His gift of Grace. I once believed but due to the deception of sin, I have loved the world more than God, and eventually my seed of faith was dried up in the sun of tribulation, or my faith grew quickly in shallow soil, and I was not planted in a local church quickly enough and into fertile soil, my plant dies from malnutrition and my faith withers. Lots of things can cause a lack of faith. Now realize that doubting the Bible and God and Jesus is normal. I had various doubts the first ten years of Christianity, maybe even the first 15 years. Sometimes I doubted JEsus existence, or the supernatural aspect of the Bible. But because I was planted in a local church, those doubts went away naturally in time, as I prayed and studied. Some people don't have that church to help them, and they wither in their faith. Sometimes becoming twice the son of hell than before they were saved. I talk to athiests every day that once believed, and no longer do. Now they get full excitement in ship wrecking others faiths. They have become worse in the end, than they were in the beginning. So it's important to nurtture new saplings in the faith. Make sure they know they are loved by God and nothing they can do can separate them from His love. However we can shipwreck ourselves. But I don't mention this to new believers as it is the meat of scripture and something that they won't get, and may confuse them on grace and security. See we are eternally secure forever, nothing can separate us from God's love. We are elect before the foundation of the world. We are secure. But even in the most secure foundations, they are not locked from the inside. the white house is locked from the outside, no one can come in. But you can walk out if you choose.
------------
I don't think you can lose your salvation I believe anyone who wants to be saved, will ultimately have the grace to be saved. But it is the person that thinks "I can sin all I want because I am saved by grace." There is a stern warning for that person. I don't believe you can lose salvation, I believe you can forfeit it. I believe in eternal security for me personally because I desire to love and live for God. He will never allow a sheep that God has given him to perish. But for the apostate, that same assurance is not there.
I told this to an athiest earlier this week, I got no reply back. He knew it was a true case of why He doesn't believe in God. He forfeited his salvation. Let me post the same post so you can hear it:
At first I thought you were open to the truth regarding this, but you are not. I personally think you rejected God because you fell into sin, and you wanted to justify it, so your sin decieved you and you lost your faith. I know that sounds horrible and confusing, but let me post it in length what happened exactly during your apostacy, and what needs to happen to reverse it.
You didn't get into God's family because of your performance, and you won't get kicked out because of your performance. God chose to love you because of who He is, not because of who you are or what you did, so He's not going to stop loving you. But at the same time if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for our sins, it says in hebrews. Hebrews six mentions leaving the faith. The best way I can reconcile it is when we sin the same sin, and we become addicted to it, and it gains a foothold in our lives, we become embarrassed of it. Then we start to legitimize it to remove the shame. Then eventually we become proud of it. After many years. Then we no longer need Jesus because we no longer believe we are sinning. Then we shipwreck our faith all together. The end becomes worse than the beginning. We become a far greater son of hell, than even before we became a christian. This is what I believe every case of apostacy is referring to in the Bible. But it is important to believe that sin won't remove salvation from us. It can't because after salvation our sin is forgiven. It's the process of losing faith, via the deception of willful sin. Struggling with sin, and maintaining our shame and simply trying harder the next time, is a healthy thing...we mortify our body daily, beating it into submission. But it is when we give up fighting sin, that we start a love affair with our sin, and our romance with God ends. Our sin eventually causes us to lose our faith in the gospel message, to the point we don't even believe Jesus existed, or even to the point we don't believe the Bible is true any more. How can he save us from our sins, if we don't believe in Him? How can I go to a hell that I don't believe in? Well, very easily. All apostates will find that one out first hand, what needs to happen now is not a debate on apologetics, but a humble repentance. A calling out to God for help. There is no sacrifice left for the sin of the apostate, but all things are possible with God, if you hurry, God can reverse being an apostate. But you must be willing to give up that same sin that caused the apostacy. If it's an addiction, well there is grace for that. God can help you slowly recover, if you are proud of your sin and don't want to repent, well then you will never recover of apostacy.
source verses: Hebrews 6 and 10. and matthew 13 below:
It is not my desire to say that calvinists or arminianists are not saved, nor do I endorse such arrogant labeling by theologians, I think this is a controversial topic and needs to be handled with care.
I wish to share part of my testimony to show how apostacy doctrines reveal more grace than OSAS.
I believe christians should not live in sin, but in the case of addictive sin I believe grace covers and mercy is in place. For this believer who is under conviction of Holy spirit, is contrite and has shame, there is grace. They get couseling, read books on victory, and get accountability partners. To those who are proud of sin, a homosexual who attends gay pride rallies, and opened a blog homosexuals for christ. To those the bible has warnings of apostacy. See you have grace to the humble and the law to the proud. To different ends to two different people. Now Calvinistic has a problem see I was thinking today while driving that is someone has an addictive sin, a Calvinist will simply say they were never saved because they didnt adhere to the perseverance of holiness, which is a calvinist doctrine. So there is a problem of assurety here. Now someone may adopt a similar view that we have here, but that is not in calvinism classically speaking. So under calvinist one is saved because they have fruit of the spirit, and they persevere their entire life in holiness, and only at the end of their life if they persevered in holiness, can they say they were in fact elect. If they stumbled with homosexuality for a year like I did, then they were never saved. So at any point in their life if they go through a triAL and stumble, they were never saved. So there is no eternal security there. I was never pround of my homosexuality when I was in it, I was addicted to it, due to some anxiety in my life from losing a job and stress, but when my anxiety was treated and I got a good union job, as well as having counseling ND medication management, and lots of prayer, I was healed 100% of my homosexuality. I tried to repent, but every time I feared for my job the thoughts came back. It was a fear of insecurity over my male coworkers, and that fear turned into desire. Again, once my anxiety treaten and God provided a good stable job, those temptations went away 100%. What if I ran into a calvinist during that year I was gay? They would have said I did not persevere in holiness and was not saved, was never saved. That would have destroyed me. I loved Jesus so much. I was teaching evangelism for the previous three years. I think there was plenty of fruit in my life, but I had a small addictive sin. So until I could fully be free from that I was not fully filled with the spirit, but i was certainly saved. So again in conclusion it's simplistic to say catholic priests who molest children were never saved. Sometimes they need counseling, and prayer. But for sure I believe they should lose their place of authority over children, and be placed on a predator list. It's nit the children's fault that these grown men have issues. Protect the children. But I would not say they were never saved or not saved. Now if they are proud over sin, and have given up the fight long ago and are comfortable in sin, then there is law to the proud. And if they are humble and broken over it, there is grace to the humble. I hope this makes sense. This topic is very personal and powerful, the gospel was never meant to simply save us but to turn us into amazing witnesses to Gods power. Since my victory over homosexuality, God has given victory over inappropriate contentography and self gratification, and even over eating. God has turned and blessed my life abundantly in the past six years and even more so in the last year, where I started praying and reading His word regularly.
In conclusion, it's important with any theology that we realize it's not new. And the church fathers held to some of these views. I firmly believe that. Also some contemporary theologians also agree, so I will post their views: the text I want to focus on is passages in hebrews, this document is some commentaries on Hebrews 6:4 from Jon Courson through the Bible commentary and from Teckton apologetics online works:
John Courson & Tekton apologetics review Heb 6 apostacy.docx
Apostacy can happen but it is not a performance issue. It's not sin or anything else that can remove salvation. But sin can deceive us into forfeiting our own secure fortress of salvation. That is why some verses seem to talk about security and others seem to say that God tosses those who bear no fruit in the fire. Both are true! It's a balance. This is probably the hardest topic in christianity to understand, and most seminaries have it wrong. Most either error on the side of OSAS or error on the side that sin can cause you to lose salvation. Neither are true. Jesus paid for our sin on the cross, sin is no longer an issue for our salvation. But sin can deceive us, not God. God's end of the issue is done and settled, but our faith can be changed due to wanting to justify our sin. For example if I love having sex with a girl that is not my wife, I may want to justify that sin in my mind, then eventually I start to loathe all those who say it's wrong, including Jesus. Eventually that bitterness grows into doubt. A little leaven, leavens the whole loaf. And I have shipwrecked my faith. God always was willing to save me, but I decided not to endorse the check personally speaking. My name was not cancelled out of the Book of life, because I believe that happens at the end of our lives. One was still genuinely saved, but now they no longer believe Jesus was God's son or savior. God will not grant salvation any longer to such a person. As in the curse of balaam, God's people have cursed themselves. See Balaam could not curse God's people externally, but He tempted them in a separate way, to lead them into adultery with mideanite women. They tried to curse God's people three times from the outside, it was impossible. And only resulted in blessing them. However He was able to lead them into forfeiting the blessing themselves. I think that is a perfect example of apostacy. However in the case of salvation, no sin will cause salvation to be lost, accept one. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It is when I believe in Jesus or I don't either one, but I am not willing to trust Him with my salvation, and His gift of Grace. I once believed but due to the deception of sin, I have loved the world more than God, and eventually my seed of faith was dried up in the sun of tribulation, or my faith grew quickly in shallow soil, and I was not planted in a local church quickly enough and into fertile soil, my plant dies from malnutrition and my faith withers. Lots of things can cause a lack of faith. Now realize that doubting the Bible and God and Jesus is normal. I had various doubts the first ten years of Christianity, maybe even the first 15 years. Sometimes I doubted JEsus existence, or the supernatural aspect of the Bible. But because I was planted in a local church, those doubts went away naturally in time, as I prayed and studied. Some people don't have that church to help them, and they wither in their faith. Sometimes becoming twice the son of hell than before they were saved. I talk to athiests every day that once believed, and no longer do. Now they get full excitement in ship wrecking others faiths. They have become worse in the end, than they were in the beginning. So it's important to nurtture new saplings in the faith. Make sure they know they are loved by God and nothing they can do can separate them from His love. However we can shipwreck ourselves. But I don't mention this to new believers as it is the meat of scripture and something that they won't get, and may confuse them on grace and security. See we are eternally secure forever, nothing can separate us from God's love. We are elect before the foundation of the world. We are secure. But even in the most secure foundations, they are not locked from the inside. the white house is locked from the outside, no one can come in. But you can walk out if you choose.
------------
I don't think you can lose your salvation I believe anyone who wants to be saved, will ultimately have the grace to be saved. But it is the person that thinks "I can sin all I want because I am saved by grace." There is a stern warning for that person. I don't believe you can lose salvation, I believe you can forfeit it. I believe in eternal security for me personally because I desire to love and live for God. He will never allow a sheep that God has given him to perish. But for the apostate, that same assurance is not there.
I told this to an athiest earlier this week, I got no reply back. He knew it was a true case of why He doesn't believe in God. He forfeited his salvation. Let me post the same post so you can hear it:
At first I thought you were open to the truth regarding this, but you are not. I personally think you rejected God because you fell into sin, and you wanted to justify it, so your sin decieved you and you lost your faith. I know that sounds horrible and confusing, but let me post it in length what happened exactly during your apostacy, and what needs to happen to reverse it.
You didn't get into God's family because of your performance, and you won't get kicked out because of your performance. God chose to love you because of who He is, not because of who you are or what you did, so He's not going to stop loving you. But at the same time if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for our sins, it says in hebrews. Hebrews six mentions leaving the faith. The best way I can reconcile it is when we sin the same sin, and we become addicted to it, and it gains a foothold in our lives, we become embarrassed of it. Then we start to legitimize it to remove the shame. Then eventually we become proud of it. After many years. Then we no longer need Jesus because we no longer believe we are sinning. Then we shipwreck our faith all together. The end becomes worse than the beginning. We become a far greater son of hell, than even before we became a christian. This is what I believe every case of apostacy is referring to in the Bible. But it is important to believe that sin won't remove salvation from us. It can't because after salvation our sin is forgiven. It's the process of losing faith, via the deception of willful sin. Struggling with sin, and maintaining our shame and simply trying harder the next time, is a healthy thing...we mortify our body daily, beating it into submission. But it is when we give up fighting sin, that we start a love affair with our sin, and our romance with God ends. Our sin eventually causes us to lose our faith in the gospel message, to the point we don't even believe Jesus existed, or even to the point we don't believe the Bible is true any more. How can he save us from our sins, if we don't believe in Him? How can I go to a hell that I don't believe in? Well, very easily. All apostates will find that one out first hand, what needs to happen now is not a debate on apologetics, but a humble repentance. A calling out to God for help. There is no sacrifice left for the sin of the apostate, but all things are possible with God, if you hurry, God can reverse being an apostate. But you must be willing to give up that same sin that caused the apostacy. If it's an addiction, well there is grace for that. God can help you slowly recover, if you are proud of your sin and don't want to repent, well then you will never recover of apostacy.
source verses: Hebrews 6 and 10. and matthew 13 below:
It is not my desire to say that calvinists or arminianists are not saved, nor do I endorse such arrogant labeling by theologians, I think this is a controversial topic and needs to be handled with care.
I wish to share part of my testimony to show how apostacy doctrines reveal more grace than OSAS.
I believe christians should not live in sin, but in the case of addictive sin I believe grace covers and mercy is in place. For this believer who is under conviction of Holy spirit, is contrite and has shame, there is grace. They get couseling, read books on victory, and get accountability partners. To those who are proud of sin, a homosexual who attends gay pride rallies, and opened a blog homosexuals for christ. To those the bible has warnings of apostacy. See you have grace to the humble and the law to the proud. To different ends to two different people. Now Calvinistic has a problem see I was thinking today while driving that is someone has an addictive sin, a Calvinist will simply say they were never saved because they didnt adhere to the perseverance of holiness, which is a calvinist doctrine. So there is a problem of assurety here. Now someone may adopt a similar view that we have here, but that is not in calvinism classically speaking. So under calvinist one is saved because they have fruit of the spirit, and they persevere their entire life in holiness, and only at the end of their life if they persevered in holiness, can they say they were in fact elect. If they stumbled with homosexuality for a year like I did, then they were never saved. So at any point in their life if they go through a triAL and stumble, they were never saved. So there is no eternal security there. I was never pround of my homosexuality when I was in it, I was addicted to it, due to some anxiety in my life from losing a job and stress, but when my anxiety was treated and I got a good union job, as well as having counseling ND medication management, and lots of prayer, I was healed 100% of my homosexuality. I tried to repent, but every time I feared for my job the thoughts came back. It was a fear of insecurity over my male coworkers, and that fear turned into desire. Again, once my anxiety treaten and God provided a good stable job, those temptations went away 100%. What if I ran into a calvinist during that year I was gay? They would have said I did not persevere in holiness and was not saved, was never saved. That would have destroyed me. I loved Jesus so much. I was teaching evangelism for the previous three years. I think there was plenty of fruit in my life, but I had a small addictive sin. So until I could fully be free from that I was not fully filled with the spirit, but i was certainly saved. So again in conclusion it's simplistic to say catholic priests who molest children were never saved. Sometimes they need counseling, and prayer. But for sure I believe they should lose their place of authority over children, and be placed on a predator list. It's nit the children's fault that these grown men have issues. Protect the children. But I would not say they were never saved or not saved. Now if they are proud over sin, and have given up the fight long ago and are comfortable in sin, then there is law to the proud. And if they are humble and broken over it, there is grace to the humble. I hope this makes sense. This topic is very personal and powerful, the gospel was never meant to simply save us but to turn us into amazing witnesses to Gods power. Since my victory over homosexuality, God has given victory over inappropriate contentography and self gratification, and even over eating. God has turned and blessed my life abundantly in the past six years and even more so in the last year, where I started praying and reading His word regularly.
In conclusion, it's important with any theology that we realize it's not new. And the church fathers held to some of these views. I firmly believe that. Also some contemporary theologians also agree, so I will post their views: the text I want to focus on is passages in hebrews, this document is some commentaries on Hebrews 6:4 from Jon Courson through the Bible commentary and from Teckton apologetics online works:
John Courson & Tekton apologetics review Heb 6 apostacy.docx
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