Can Women Be Ministers?

[Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors]

Yes, but I hope you're not arguing that because they do, everyone else must fall into line with them. It still is the case that more Christians belong to churches that DO NOT ordain women than those that do, so I find your listing of these churches above to be rather immaterial. And of course, a similar list could easily be compiled of churches that do not ordain women.
Not at all , I've already said how I personally feel on the subject .
I believe women and men Alike can minister, teach , preach / evangelize.

I stated above more than once that I see clearly that Men are the Head of the Church / so no argument there .
My position ...a Woman can Spread the Gospel & Administer The Same .

As for leadership positions in the Church ...The Shepard should be Male according to The Word .

 

[Paidiske]

As a woman, I honestly don't understand why it is so offensive for us to serve God differently, albeit with the same importance.

This is not, for me, a matter of offence. As others have noted above, Christians differ on this and I'm not offended by that fact. I respect that those with whom I disagree, for the most part, hold their position out of genuine love for God and desire to please God.

But for me also, it is a question of obedience. This is who God has created, gifted and called me to be. I didn't seek to become a priest because I was a raging feminist, or because I thought it would be a cool thing to do, or anything like that. I sought to become a priest because God reached into my nice comfortable professional life and said, "Sorry, I've got something else for you to do." (I'm giving you the short version, obviously).

So it is important to me - and the many many women like me - that there be room in the church for us to be obedient to that, just as there is for men who obey that deeply personal call. That the church together be able to be obedient to the God who calls all of us into partnership and cooperation in worship and mission.

As for the question of who is the Head of the church - to my mind that position belongs exclusively to Christ. The rest of us share delegated authority as we work and pray together.

 

[All4Christ]

This is not, for me, a matter of offence. As others have noted above, Christians differ on this and I'm not offended by that fact. I respect that those with whom I disagree, for the most part, hold their position out of genuine love for God and desire to please God.

But for me also, it is a question of obedience. This is who God has created, gifted and called me to be. I didn't seek to become a priest because I was a raging feminist, or because I thought it would be a cool thing to do, or anything like that. I sought to become a priest because God reached into my nice comfortable professional life and said, "Sorry, I've got something else for you to do." (I'm giving you the short version, obviously).

So it is important to me - and the many many women like me - that there be room in the church for us to be obedient to that, just as there is for men who obey that deeply personal call. That the church together be able to be obedient to the God who calls all of us into partnership and cooperation in worship and mission.

As for the question of who is the Head of the church - to my mind that position belongs exclusively to Christ. The rest of us share delegated authority as we work and pray together.

Paidiske - I appreciate where you are coming from and respect your opinion and perspective. I have seen God working through women ministers and won't deny that. Theologically, we differ on this point, but please know I respect you and your position!

 

[Job8]

Can Women Be Ministers?

No. But some will insist that they can, in spite of the Scriptures. Scripture does not mean anything to those who do, since they can bend it and twist it as needed.

 

[Job8]

As others have noted above, Christians differ on this and I'm not offended by that fact.

That is a very recent phenomenon, and you can thank Radical Feminists for this. But for almost 2,000 years THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE OF OPINION OR UNDERSTANDING.

 

[Paidiske]

Scripture does not mean anything to those who do

Excuse me, but that is slander. I have never met a woman in ministry to whom Scripture did not mean a great deal. That we understand it differently to some others does not mean that it has no meaning for us, or that we reject it.

I begin and end every day with Scripture. It shapes my imagination, my thoughts, my prayers, my speaking, my actions and my living. I could not hold it in higher regard than I do.

That is a very recent phenomenon, and you can thank Radical Feminists for this. But for almost 2,000 years THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE OF OPINION OR UNDERSTANDING.

Not true. For almost 2,000 years there has been a constant strand of women who sought ministry opportunities inside and outside official church structures, and there have been men who supported them. That feminism has created a cultural climate in which this has become more mainstream is fortuitous but does not make women in ministry a new thing. From Mary Magdalene right through the early church, the monastics, the early radical reformation, and so on until our present day we have had women in leadership roles, women who taught, women who evangelised, and women who took on whatever participation in the church that was open to them.

 

[All4Christ]

Excuse me, but that is slander. I have never met a woman in ministry to whom Scripture did not mean a great deal. That we understand it differently to some others does not mean that it has no meaning for us, or that we reject it.

I begin and end every day with Scripture. It shapes my imagination, my thoughts, my prayers, my speaking, my actions and my living. I could not hold it in higher regard than I do.



Not true. For almost 2,000 years there has been a constant strand of women who sought ministry opportunities inside and outside official church structures, and there have been men who supported them. That feminism has created a cultural climate in which this has become more mainstream is fortuitous but does not make women in ministry a new thing. From Mary Magdalene right through the early church, the monastics, the early radical reformation, and so on until our present day we have had women in leadership roles, women who taught, women who evangelised, and women who took on whatever participation in the church that was open to them.

While the Eastern Orthodox Church affirms only men as priests, the women monastic orders are strong and very important to the inner life of the Church. In fact, in monastics, there is no difference in ranks or importance in regards to gender.

 

[Albion]

That feminism has created a cultural climate in which this has become more mainstream is fortuitous but does not make women in ministry a new thing.

Perhaps the previous speaker meant that women actually being in the ordained ministry--as a reality rather than as a proposal or an idea--came to the mainline churches only when the recent political movement became significant.

 

[com7fy8]

With feminism in the mix, a woman can take it on herself that she is "called". But if she is not called, she will be found out. Jesus guarantees us that if we learn to obey Him, "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) I know there are a number of "called" women who have personality problems and not "rest for your souls", and they are stressed and burnt out. So, also are certain men who have taken on their own selves, that they are "called".

1 Timothy 3:1-10 gives what qualifies a man to be considered to "take care of the church of God". I notice how this is a family man; so I consider that his wife has been his helpmate . . . to help him get real with God and find out how to relate in their marriage and care for their children . . . while he has gotten his so needed correction (Hebrews 12:4-11) which has made him become "blameless", the way God's love makes us blameless with maturity. Therefore, his lady is essential to him becoming qualified to care for God's people.

He becomes "blameless", so he can help any married or single person, at all, as an individual with God. And he has hands-on experience with how God has corrected and matured him for caring for a marriage and family. And his wife, therefore, is included in his example > 1 Peter 5:3 < therefore . . . again . . . she is this essential.

Our basic calling is not only to serve Jesus. Jesus chose his twelve, "that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach," we have in Mark 3:14. So, our basic Christian calling includes first to be with our Groom Jesus, for sharing in sensitive intimacy with Him in His own love.

And we are called to share with one another in this love of Jesus who is "gentle and lowly in heart" (Matthew 11:28-30 >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

And we are all called . . . "in one body", our Apostle Paul does say > to be personally ruled - - - in our "hearts" - - - by God's own peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, being "called" is not only about being a public minister or servant. I suspect there are people who take on themselves a ministry or service but do not even get started in how we share with Jesus, each "one spirit with Him" (1 Corinthians 6:17). And then they are controlling and rolling . . . like the men they want to be equal to!!

So, be careful about who you want to be equal to; because you could become like that person in order to have what he or she has. There are people who are big-name show-piece administrators who can speak, who can preach. And they impress people, so that ones of them want to become like them. And as they get into the controlling and rolling which can get them up there, they are not learning how to personally relate in love >

"with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2)

"tenderhearted" > Ephesians 4:31-32, 1 Peter 3:8-9.

Anyone can learn how to get along with others who want the same thing, by the way. And we see how this can turn out, with code of silence and cover-ups, in various groups and professions. For Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, ministry was not an isolation with birds of their own feather >

"But we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children." (1 Thessalonians 2:7)

So, I see they were relating as family, very dear and intimate together . . . not making Paul and Silvanus and Timothy distant and separate. These were men, relating "as a nursing mother" . . . according to my translation Also, note 1 Thessalonians 2:11.

Therefore, could we say that the Holy Spirit is able to have male ministers ministering in the best ways that both mothers and fathers care for their children? I see how there were mature senior ladies who were role models for how Paul and Silvanus and Timothy related in their ministering. So, yes those women were ministering, by their example through our Apostle Paul and Silvanus and Timothy ! ! ! Possibly, those ladies stayed with caring for children and young mothers, but their example taught even Paul more than any amount of preaching and revelation could.

 

[Job8]

That we understand it differently to some others does not mean that it has no meaning for us, or that we reject it.

Well that's the whole point. There cannot be half a dozen interpretations for Scripture when it is plain and literal. One interpretation has to be true, and since that was widely held for about 2,000 years among Christians of every kind, it is the correct interpretation.

 

[Albion]

Well that's the whole point. There cannot be half a dozen interpretations for Scripture when it is plain and literal.

But in fact there are. Even if we set aside the people and churches that consider the Bible to be full of errors or see it as highly figurative, it's hardly the case that the Christians who take it to be plain and literal are of one accord when it comes to interpreting its contents! Quite the contrary.

 

[Job8]

But in fact there are. Even if we set aside the people and churches that consider the Bible to be full of errors or see it as highly figurative, it's hardly the case that the Christians who take it to be plain and literal are of one accord when it comes to interpreting its contents! Quite the contrary.

Well traditionally only men were given the position of ministers, elders, bishops, so this is a very recent *re-interpretation*:

Traditionally these roles were male preserves, but over the last century, an increasing number of denominations have begun ordaining women. The notion of a priesthood is really alien to Protestants in general, for all believer are for them priests. Since, however, no women appear in the New Testament as ordained ministers, many Protestant churches continue to restrict ordination to males.

Wikipedia

 

[Albion]

Well traditionally only men were given the position of ministers, elders, bishops, so this is a very recent *re-interpretation*:
Wikipedia

Is this a way of saying "likes" to what I wrote there?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I find the OP to be unintentially flawed. The assumption is made that "ministers" (diakonos in Greek, transliterated as deacons or servants in English as well as ministers) is an ordained office of authority in the church, much as some might refer to them as priests or pastors. The closest one might come to this would be the office of deacon in the New Testament. Paul specifically spells out the characteristis of a deacon in I Timothy 3. One of the characteristics is to be the husband of a wife (verse 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.) Unless a lady is a lesbian then it is quite impossible to remotely consider her as able to meet that qualification.

Now, if one equates a "minister" with a priest or a pastor, the stakes are much more problematic. First, of course, is that the New Testament is utterly silent regarding a clerical class within the church of priests. Based upon that silence, many posit that women can, indeed, and should become priests. That is an exceeding problematic argument because one could just as easily say that my pet goldfish is equally qualified to be a Christian priest. I doubt any church would ordain a goldfish based on this argument.

The argument for pastor is equally weak. The New Testament never describes pastors (literally, shepherds) as an authoritative office in the church akin to what we see in churches today. Pastors are listed among a variety of gifts God has given to His church for its edification. It is just as appropriate to value an apostle or a teacher or an evangelist within the church as a pastor. That any Christian might be able to shepherd other people is quite possible as, for example, mothers raised their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. That any Christian who does this service ought to be singled out for a professional occupation and a salary along with unilateral authority in the church flies in the face of scripture.

The bottom line is that all Christians are called to be servants (deacons, ministers) so women can, and should, be servants. However, in the church of God elders are given the role of overseeing the flock and deacons (specifically qualified men) are to serve the church, especially in works of mercy such as attending to the needs of widows and orphans.

 

[Job8]

The closest one might come to this would be the office of deacon in the New Testament.

There are two offices clearly mentioned in the New Testament -- elders (also called bishops) and deacons. Both offices are for men only.

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. (1 Tim 3:1)

And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. (1 Tim 3:10).

Paul says "If a man desire..." Not "If a man or woman desire...". The same would be true for deacons. That makes it cut and dried, and no amount of twisting Scripture changes what is written. Jesus said "IT IS WRITTEN" again and again to establish the final authority of the written Word, and even His enemies never disputed the validity of "IT IS WRITTEN" (unlike many of today's evangelical Christians).

Also when Paul says "THIS IS A TRUE SAYING" or "THIS IS A FAITHFUL SAYING" what he is really telling us is that this is Christ's doctrine, not a man-made invention. Why are Christians ignoring these critical things? Because the authority of the written Word has been thoroughly undermined.

 

[Job8]

The argument for pastor is equally weak. The New Testament never describes pastors (literally, shepherds) as an authoritative office in the church akin to what we see in churches today.

Balderdash.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Balderdash.

Well, then rebut my assertion with scripture. "Balderdash" does not cut it for me. Show me anywhere in scripture there is an office of "pastor".

 

[Paidiske]

There are two offices clearly mentioned in the New Testament -- elders (also called bishops) and deacons. Both offices are for men only.

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. (1 Tim 3:1)

And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. (1 Tim 3:10).

Paul says "If a man desire..." Not "If a man or woman desire...". The same would be true for deacons. That makes it cut and dried, and no amount of twisting Scripture changes what is written.

Actually, that's not what it says in the original at all.

1 Tim 3:1 says "ei tis episkopos oregetai"... "if anyone aspires to be a bishop." There is no indication of gender either way here, and no language specifically indicating that this is an "office." (Note: I am not arguing on this basis to abolish the episcopate as an order, just noting that you can't establish it on the basis of this verse).

And likewise there is no language of "office" in verse 10. That has been inserted into the text by your preferred translator.

 

[com7fy8]

Show me anywhere in scripture there is an office of "pastor".

Hi, there, b b b b b b b

I am not saying that "a bishop" as presented by Paul in 1 Timothy 3:1-10 is who we see today in a number of groups. But it does look as though there was hierarchy . . . Paul over Timothy over those appointed to "take care of the church of God" > in 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

And I understand that a 1 Timothy 3:1-10 approved "bishop" takes "care of the church of God". So, to me it seems a "bishop" means a pastor, since he takes care of God's people. And he is ordained to be a pastor . . . after he has proven himself in his own family so we know he knows how to care for people in our Father's family caring and sharing way. And it says he is "blameless" . . . meaning how he becomes after years of maturing with his wife in God's love, with her his helpmate helping him get this correction (Hebrews 12:4-11) and maturation (1 John 4:17). He has become an example Christian so God's children can feed on his example > 1 Peter 5:3.

So, this kind of a pastor is not a gift, but a man who has matured and learned how to love and care for God's people, learning in his own home first, being tested and proven there . . . before he may even be considered.

But there is the good and perfect gift (James 1:17) of pastor, which is a spiritual gift which makes a person able to minister for us to be pastored by Jesus in us guiding each of us personally. This gift can be given to a newborn Christian so the person has ability to minister to others while he or she also needs more and more correction and maturation. The gifted person, at first, might not be a great example, but has the gift so he or she can be some good for the church while maturing in grace which has all of God's ability and makes each of us grow to become more and more well-rounded in God's creativity of love.

When the church was new, there were no rather fully mature Christians . . . I would say; so - - at that time, especially, we needed gifts which were already good and perfect to help us along. We had not very mature example leaders. So, Jesus gave some to be pastors by gift, but Paul is talking about one who is qualified to be considered a pastor because of maturity and already proven ability in his home.

Now I see how ones in hierarchies can be high-up and distant . . . not like how Paul and Silvanus and Timothy cared for the Thessalonians "just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children", as we have in 1 Thessalonians 2:7. Paul, for one, was as high as you can get, for authority, I would say; yet, he was this personal with God's children. But now it seems there are hierarchies in which authority is used for control from an impersonal distance, and there is power of politics versus prayer accomplishing things.

So, I see it is scriptural to have hierarchy, but not as we see in a number of cases, today. The hierarchy which I have seen can be administrative and not necessarily making leaders by example available in the everyday lives of Christians. In order to have a leader by example > 1 Peter 5:3 < I think you need to personally know the person so you can feed on that one's example And to me 1 Thessalonians 2:7 means that Paul and Silvanus and Timothy were this personal with the people of Jesus' church

 

[Biblicist]

I find the OP to be unintentially flawed. The assumption is made that "ministers" (diakonos in Greek, transliterated as deacons or servants in English as well as ministers) is an ordained office of authority in the church, much as some might refer to them as priests or pastors. . .

Other than with a misreading of the role of the shepherd within Eph 4, about the only support that anyone can provide for the supposed role of the pastor within church government (or that it's even a non-govermental Office) is when some say "It's because my pastor told me so!"

Outside of the function of an Elder, where the plurality of the Elders are to be the senior leaders of each and every local congregation, where a woman cannot hold this role, they can still minister within numerous areas such as the complete list of Offices found within 1 Cor 12:28, where women can be;

1. apostles
   
2. prophets
3. teachers (where their teaching should not be to men)
4. powers (aka miracles)
5. healings
6. administrations
7. helps
8. tongues

For those who have a pastoral heart, where they could be serving as home-group leaders, supporting the downtrodden or whatever, these roles probably fall under that of helps.

Edit: typo