Can Women Be Ministers?

[com7fy8]

1 Tim 3:1 says "ei tis episkopos oregetai"... "if anyone aspires to be a bishop." There is no indication of gender either way here,

But, Paidiske, what about the "husband of one wife part"?

And what about "rules his own house well"? Does it say rules "one's" house well, or "his" house well?

 

[Paidiske]

I take "husband of one wife" to be basically the same thing as "monogamous." So the corollary for a woman would be to have only one husband.

There's no pronoun where you have "rules his own house well." The construction runs "tou idiou oikou kalos proistamenon" "of own household a good ruler" - in English we need to insert his or her to make the sentence make sense, but it is not there in the Greek.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually, that's not what it says in the original at all.

1 Tim 3:1 says "ei tis episkopos oregetai"... "if anyone aspires to be a bishop." There is no indication of gender either way here, and no language specifically indicating that this is an "office." (Note: I am not arguing on this basis to abolish the episcopate as an order, just noting that you can't establish it on the basis of this verse).

And likewise there is no language of "office" in verse 10. That has been inserted into the text by your preferred translator.

Here is the passage -

3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. 2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. 4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil. 7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Are you the husband of one wife?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I take "husband of one wife" to be basically the same thing as "monogamous." So the corollary for a woman would be to have only one husband.

There's no pronoun where you have "rules his own house well." The construction runs "tou idiou oikou kalos proistamenon" "of own household a good ruler" - in English we need to insert his or her to make the sentence make sense, but it is not there in the Greek.

You can take it any number of ways. Our homosexual friends take it to also mean monogamous. Our incestuous friends also take it the same way. Your cherrypicking of the passage is really quite impressive. Can you in honesty say that nowhere in the passage is any masculine pronoun or adjective used?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hi, there, b b b b b b b

I am not saying that "a bishop" as presented by Paul in 1 Timothy 3:1-10 is who we see today in a number of groups. But it does look as though there was hierarchy . . . Paul over Timothy over those appointed to "take care of the church of God" > in 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

And I understand that a 1 Timothy 3:1-10 approved "bishop" takes "care of the church of God". So, to me it seems a "bishop" means a pastor, since he takes care of God's people. And he is ordained to be a pastor . . . after he has proven himself in his own family so we know he knows how to care for people in our Father's family caring and sharing way. And it says he is "blameless" . . . meaning how he becomes after years of maturing with his wife in God's love, with her his helpmate helping him get this correction (Hebrews 12:4-11) and maturation (1 John 4:17). He has become an example Christian so God's children can feed on his example > 1 Peter 5:3.

So, this kind of a pastor is not a gift, but a man who has matured and learned how to love and care for God's people, learning in his own home first, being tested and proven there . . . before he may even be considered.

But there is the good and perfect gift (James 1:17) of pastor, which is a spiritual gift which makes a person able to minister for us to be pastored by Jesus in us guiding each of us personally. This gift can be given to a newborn Christian so the person has ability to minister to others while he or she also needs more and more correction and maturation. The gifted person, at first, might not be a great example, but has the gift so he or she can be some good for the church while maturing in grace which has all of God's ability and makes each of us grow to become more and more well-rounded in God's creativity of love.

When the church was new, there were no rather fully mature Christians . . . I would say; so - - at that time, especially, we needed gifts which were already good and perfect to help us along. We had not very mature example leaders. So, Jesus gave some to be pastors by gift, but Paul is talking about one who is qualified to be considered a pastor because of maturity and already proven ability in his home.

Now I see how ones in hierarchies can be high-up and distant . . . not like how Paul and Silvanus and Timothy cared for the Thessalonians "just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children", as we have in 1 Thessalonians 2:7. Paul, for one, was as high as you can get, for authority, I would say; yet, he was this personal with God's children. But now it seems there are hierarchies in which authority is used for control from an impersonal distance, and there is power of politics versus prayer accomplishing things.

So, I see it is scriptural to have hierarchy, but not as we see in a number of cases, today. The hierarchy which I have seen can be administrative and not necessarily making leaders by example available in the everyday lives of Christians. In order to have a leader by example > 1 Peter 5:3 < I think you need to personally know the person so you can feed on that one's example And to me 1 Thessalonians 2:7 means that Paul and Silvanus and Timothy were this personal with the people of Jesus' church

I cannot recall ever posting that there is no order in the church. Rather, I have stated that there are two offices given in scripture - elders (episkopoi which is transliterated in some Bibles as bishops) and deacons. You will search in vain to find pastors associated with an office in the church such as is practiced in most modern churches.

On another note, Paul never refers to himself as an elder, a deacon, or a pastor. He is quite explicit that he was called to be an apostle. An apostle, who obviously held great authority in the early church, appointed elders and deacons, among other things.

Neither will you find that Timothy or Silas, aka Silvanus, are ever identified as being elders, deacons, or pastors.

 

[Paidiske]

Can you in honesty say that nowhere in the passage is any masculine pronoun or adjective used?

Kalos proistamenon (good ruler) is in the masculine form, but since it would be normal to use the masculine when referring to a mixed group, it doesn't exclude women.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Other than with a misreading of the role of the shepherd within Eph 4, about the only support that anyone can provide for the supposed role of the pastor within church government (or that it's even a non-govermental Office) is when some say "It's because my pastor told me so!"

Outside of the function of an Elder, where the plurality of the Elders are to be the senior leaders of each and every local congregation, where a woman cannot hold this role, they can still minister within numerous areas such as the complete list of Offices found within 1 Cor 12:28, where women can be;

1. apostles
   
2. prophets
3. teachers (where their teaching should not be to men)
4. powers (aka miracles0
5. healings
6. administrations
7. helps
8. tongues

For those who have a pastoral heart, where they could be serving as home-group leaders, supporting the downtrodden or whatever, these roles probably fall under that of helps.

Thanks for the clear post. I find it odd that in our culture pastors get all the attention and the "laity" end up doing nothing and then complaining that they should be pastors when, in fact, God has provided fruitful ministries for all of God's people.

 

[Biblicist]

Thanks for the clear post. I find it odd that in our culture pastors get all the attention and the "laity" end up doing nothing and then complaining that they should be pastors when, in fact, God has provided fruitful ministries for all of God's people.

Having been a Pentecostal for 42 years, for many of these years I have been fascinated with how on the one hand we regularly refer to the 'priesthood of all Believers' but on the other hand we have adopted the Evangelical role of the pastor, where the poor creatures who have to undertake this very perilous role become the chief cook and bottle washers, where the laity are merely there to do their bidding.

 

[All4Christ]

Thanks for the clear post. I find it odd that in our culture pastors get all the attention and the "laity" end up doing nothing and then complaining that they should be pastors when, in fact, God has provided fruitful ministries for all of God's people.

I haven't found this to be the case with our laity. Most are doing some kind of ministry, and are always busy. There are plenty of ministries for the laity. Then again, I haven't heard them complaining that they should be pastors either.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Can Women Be Ministers? Certainly. Ever heard of Thecla?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thecla

 

[All4Christ]

Can Women Be Ministers? Certainly. Ever heard of Thecla?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thecla

In our Tradition, we consider St. Thekla to be "Equal to the Apostles", but we consider her to be an evangelist / apostle, not a minister in the sense of the office of protopresbyter (elder / pries / pastor) or overseer (episkopos / bishop) Do you have proof that she filled the role of protopresbyter or episkopos?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Can Women Be Ministers? Certainly. Ever heard of Thecla?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thecla

Not a Pastor though, but serving God.

 

[Steve Petersen]

In our Tradition, we consider St. Thekla to be "Equal to the Apostles", but we consider her to be an evangelist / apostle, not a minister in the sense of the office of protopresbyter (elder / pries / pastor) or overseer (episkopos / bishop) Do you have proof that she filled the role of protopresbyter or episkopos?

No. Didn't realize the discussion was that pedantic.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

No. Didn't realize the discussion was that pedantic.

The "Office of the Holy Ministry" is what is being discussed here.

From the original post:

My mother and I debated this and she believes women cannot be pastors, but can otherwise hold any position in the church.

 

[All4Christ]

No. Didn't realize the discussion was that pedantic.

If you read the thread above, the topic is whether women can be clergy in one of the ordained offices of ministry. Most agree that women can be in ministry of some form.

 

[Monk Brendan]

As the title suggests, are women allowed to be ministers, specifically elders and deacons?

Let's stick to Deaconess first. In the original One True Catholic and Apostolic Church--before 500 A.D., Deaconess was an honored position. In those times, Baptism was done in the nude, so while a priest said the prayers outside an enclosure, the Deaconess would do the actual Baptism.

Some of the Orthodox Churches are restoring this order, and it is being talked about by the Catholic Church as well.

As far as Elders--the correct word is Priest, and none of the pre-Reformation Churches have ever had a female priesthood. And the last time I looked, the Catholic Churches have totally renounced that idea.

 

[Nikki Brown]

As the title suggests, are women allowed to be ministers, specifically elders and deacons?

In 1 Timothy chapter 3, Paul lists the qualifications for the elders and deacons. For both of them, he uses the masculine pronoun and they must be faithful to their wife.

I don't know what verse egalitarians use, so I won't pretend to know what verses they use to avoid misrepresenting them. I do recall, however, Paul referring to Phoebe as a deaconness, but from my conversation with lther Christians, might not necessarily be the same thing as a deacon, but more of a nun.

My mother and I debated this and she believes women cannot be pastors, but can otherwise hold any position in the church.

I used to agree with her, but now I think deacons and elders are to be exclusively male.

This is a tricky topic as I don't see it as big of an issue as say- baptism, and I want to be open to the possibility that God may call women to be pastors, elders, and deacons. I don't want to say that God cannot choose women to fill those roles.

What doth thou thinketh, CF?

I believe that the bible can be interpreted differently to different people. It is a foundation to be used for our Christian walk. Masculine words used in biblical days was used as a formality for the custom of that day. Woman were not well respected and were not treated as an equal to men. Therefore, times have changed and God uses whoever he deems fit to carry his Gospel to lost souls. I believe that everyone must give an account for their actions on Judgement Day and it is not up to us to say whether or not a woman can be a pastor or an elder.

 

[Nikki Brown]

Okay... so you're a Baptist?

I guess I have a prior question, and that is, how do Baptists understand ministry in general? Because I think a large part of the reason that different groups differ on this, is that we understand ministry differently too.

And because if, for example, Baptists don't see their ministry as a direct continuation (or restoration) of New Testament practice but as something that has developed over time, then what is said in the New Testament might be felt to be less directly applicable.

For me, although I can find justification for women in leadership positions in the NT, and examples of women in leadership positions (not just Phoebe but also Junia, Priscilla, Nympha and so many others), the fundamental question is, is God sovereign or not? If God is sovereign, God can call whom He wills. If we refuse to entertain the idea that God can do that, we try to tell God what to do, rather than the other way around.

I don't find the conservative/liberal distinction helpful here. Some of my most conservative colleagues are women.

But maybe that's enough to start a conversation?

A-men! Who are we to question God?

 

[Nikki Brown]

It's my belief that Scripture precludes women from the offices of Overseer and Deacon.

1 Timothy 2:11-15;

11 A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

That passage alone should be sufficient before even arriving at the qualifications of Overseer and Deacon.

Again, we have to look at the biblical and cultural history behind the writing of the scripture. Also, the Middle Eastern society is different from the American society. The bible was translated many times before the King James Version was written. The scripture was originally written by interpretation which means that we are to use our own moral judgement to interpret the scriptures in a way that we think is pleasing in God's eyesight. If you think it is wrong for women to be pastors than so be it. If you don't think it is wrong for women to be pastors than so be it. Who is to say one opinion is greater than the other?

 

[Albion]

Again, we have to look at the biblical and cultural history behind the writing of the scripture.

That's a good way to reduce most of scripture to personal opinion, and in this case the male priesthood does not hang on just one, perhaps ambiguous, verse as is the case with some other doctrinal issues. Your argument is also use by those who want to justify same-sex marriages, for example.