Can Women Be Ministers?

[All4Christ]

Presbyter (Greek πρεσβύτερος, : "elder" or "priest" in Christian usage) in theNew Testament refers to a leader in local Christian congregations, with presbyter being from the Greek "presbyteros" and meaning elder/senior and episkopos meaning overseer, referring exclusively to the office of bishop, but with presbyteros being understood by many as referring to the same person functioning as overseer.[1][2] In modern Catholic and Orthodox usage, presbyter is distinct from bishop and synonymous withpriest. However, in predominant Protestantusage, the term is not seen as referring to a member of a distinctive priesthood calledpriests, but instead terms such as minister,pastor and elder are used.

Like I stated earlier , this viewpoint will be skewed depending upon denomination.

Denominations teach truth from viewpoint .

Viewpoints do not make something a fact .

Let's study the Historical teachings of Luther and see if we fully agree with All of what his viewpoint Was before we say we Agree.

Many people who claim Presbyterian or
PRODESTANT faith have not deeply studied Luther full beliefs .

Much of the church's doctrine is woven from these opinions of His & others .

A true study of the early church , prior to Roman influence would open eyes and ears to much.

? What does Luther have to do with the early church?

Despite the role of presbyter (elder) and bishop (episkopos) being somewhat interchangeable in Paul's epistles, I haven't seen any evidence that women were presbyters or bishops.

The English words don't really mean anything when compared to the Greek.

 

[Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors]

oops

 

[All4Christ]

You spoke of Churches using the NLT

I did not speak of any Bible versions. I believe @Albion said that.

 

[Circle Christ]

As the title suggests, are women allowed to be ministers, specifically elders and deacons?

In 1 Timothy chapter 3, Paul lists the qualifications for the elders and deacons. For both of them, he uses the masculine pronoun and they must be faithful to their wife.

I don't know what verse egalitarians use, so I won't pretend to know what verses they use to avoid misrepresenting them. I do recall, however, Paul referring to Phoebe as a deaconness, but from my conversation with lther Christians, might not necessarily be the same thing as a deacon, but more of a nun.

My mother and I debated this and she believes women cannot be pastors, but can otherwise hold any position in the church.

I used to agree with her, but now I think deacons and elders are to be exclusively male.

This is a tricky topic as I don't see it as big of an issue as say- baptism, and I want to be open to the possibility that God may call women to be pastors, elders, and deacons. I don't want to say that God cannot choose women to fill those roles.

What doth thou thinketh, CF?

Paul's observations apply to the church management he applied in his letters.

The real question today is, are there women ministers and pastors? Yes.
Is God OK with that? Yes.
Was Jesus OK with that? Yes.

Even Paul said we are all one in Christ Jesus. To argue he discriminated against one of us because we are women isn't in keeping with the credibility of his proclamation concerning the oneness of those in Christ Jesus.
There were women pastors in Paul's time. And there were women that journeyed with the master during his earthly ministry.

The argument that Jesus much less God is sexist isn't righteous. In fact, all that Jesus himself did during his time on earth, and the fact a woman found his tomb empty first and reported to the Disciples this news and was paid attention to, shows that Jesus condemned the sexist ideologies that governed his people at the time. And under the supervision of the Pharisee's of the temple. Which is what Paul formerly was. He would not assume their demeanor then if he was a Disciple of the anointed one who's ministry condemned those divisive standards .

 

[Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors]

? What does Luther have to do with the early church?

Despite the role of presbyter (elder) and bishop (episkopos) being somewhat interchangeable in Paul's epistles, I haven't seen any evidence that women were presbyters or bishops.

The English words don't really mean anything when compared to the Greek.

That's my point.
Denominations teach Viewpoints.
Men's personal observations and agendas create denomination.

We should study for ourselves .
The early church did things much differently . That's a fact ..

Religion has turned away many good Men & Women, because of our traditions of Men .

 

[All4Christ]

No

Ok. My understanding is based on my own study. It matches the church I eventually joined, but is based on personal study of primarily Scripture, with additional study of the early church. In fact, my opinion differed from the church I was a part of when I formed my opinion.

 

[Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors]

I did not speak of any Bible versions. I believe @Albion said that.

My bad sorry pressed the wrong button in reply

 

[WolfGate]

Paul's observations apply to the church management he applied in his letters.

The real question today is, are there women ministers and pastors? Yes.
Is God OK with that? Yes.
Was Jesus OK with that? Yes.

When true Christians who seek to follow God with all their heart, soul and mind can study this issue and come to different conclusions, I'd feel a bit awkward speaking with certainty that I knew how God and Jesus feel about it. Seems a bit bold to me.

Reality is that most believers feel, on any individual issue, that they understand what the bible is telling us. The wise ones realize that on some issues they will get to heaven and learn they were wrong.

 

[Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors]

Ok. My understanding is based on my own study. It matches the church I eventually joined, but is based on personal study of primarily Scripture, with additional study of the early church. In fact, my opinion differed from the church I was a part of when I formed my opinion.

My autocorretct mobile phone sorry didn't mean no ...lol

I looked at that and tried to correct it later .

Sorry bout that

 

[Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors]

My personal belief from study .
It clearly states women are not to have Athority over a man ( what this means in Greek is different than how we observe the meaning of the context in English translation of The Bible).

Men should be Head of the Church.
I don't know how someone can argue that in scripture.

As far as women being in Leadership roles ( in The Church ) looking at scripture, I don't see how someone can argue Otherwise .

That's where I'm at on it .

 

[Circle Christ]

When true Christians who seek to follow God with all their heart, soul and mind can study this issue and come to different conclusions, I'd feel a bit awkward speaking with certainty that I knew how God and Jesus feel about it. Seems a bit bold to me.

Reality is that most believers feel, on any individual issue, that they understand what the bible is telling us. The wise ones realize that on some issues they will get to heaven and learn they were wrong.

You lost the debate the moment you attempted to skirt the forum rules and make a sideways slur against anyone who disagrees with you as being not true Christians.

 

[Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors]

As a woman, I honestly don't understand why it is so offensive for us to serve God differently, albeit with the same importance.

Christ chose the first "clergy" and leaders of the church. They were all men. The priests in the church are icons of Christ. Why did He select men only? Does it matter? He didn't do things in a way that pandered to the expectations of society. Therefore, we follow His lead. It seems rather simple to me.

Women can be teachers, leaders, can minister to others...but ordained clergy should follow the same pattern that Jesus established.

I myself don't find it offensive for men to hold church position , not at all .

What I find offensive is religion teaching that women should "be quiet" in church without having a understanding of who And what Paul was addressing in that portion .

It's a nonsense viewpoint, stemming from the twisting of The Word .

Although many scriptures have been twisted to serve personal agenda , we are One in Christ . Same value To The Lord , both male and female.

 

[WolfGate]

You lost the debate the moment you attempted to skirt the forum rules and make a sideways slur against anyone who disagrees with you as being not true Christians.

No slur was intended. I apologize that it came out that way. I certainly do not believe and was not trying to say that you are not a true Christian.

I was saying that true Christians can and do come to different conclusions on this issue. And that I find it awkward to speak with certainty that we KNOW God's feelings on an issue when that is the case. That is all I was saying.

You assume you know my thoughts on the topic - but I have not stated or implied them in this thread.

 

[Albion]

I myself don't find it offensive for men to hold church position , not at all .

What I find offensive is religion teaching that women should "be quiet" in church without having a understanding of who And what Paul was addressing in that portion .

OK, then let's get back to the point I originally made. Which denominations do that--decline to ordain women because they ought, allegedly, to be quiet or submissive?

That's who your complaint is directed against, not all the churches that have male-only clergy.

 

[Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors]

OK, then let's get back to the point I originally made. Which denominations do that--decline to ordain women because they ought, allegedly, to be quiet or submissive?

That's who your complaint is directed against, not all the churches that have male-only clergy



Just think about Puritanism , would you say that teachings stemming from them have done some shaping??

 

[Albion]

I don't know what you're asking here or what it has to do with the post you quoted.

 

[Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors]

I don't know what you're asking here or what it has to do with the post you quoted.

My reply was not intended to be a question , Just discussion .. on that last quote . I was referring to the Puritanism for instance as an example of " women being quiet and submissive in church" .

I think it's a good example of an extreme or a far cry from how The Lord intended The Church to function .

I know we don't do things in the same manner today .

However some of those mindsets trickled down .

 

[Albion]

My reply was not intended to be a question , Just discussion .. on that last quote . I was referring to the Puritanism for instance as an example of " women being quiet and submissive in church" .

Okay.

I think it's a good example of an extreme or a far cry from how The Lord intended The Church to function .

....and most Christians, from mainline Protestants to Catholics and Orthodox and other traditions, think of the Puritans as way out on the fringe. I'm referring to churches which do ordain women and also those that do not.

 

[Lady&TheCoatofmanycolors]

That would be mostly but not all
, The United Methodist Church &Presbyterian Church USA . The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Reform Judaism, and the Episcopal Church and the United Methodist Church, now allow women to be bishops .

Yep .

 

[Albion]

That would be mostly but not all
, The United Methodist Church &Presbyterian Church USA . The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Reform Judaism, and the Episcopal Church and the United Methodist Church, now allow women to be bishops .

Yes, but I hope you're not arguing that because they do, everyone else must fall into line with them. It still is the case that more Christians belong to churches that DO NOT ordain women than those that do, so I find your listing of these churches above to be rather immaterial. And of course, a similar list could easily be compiled of churches that do not ordain women.