Can Women Be Ministers?

[MayMcFlurry]

Well my pastors are female, they are best friends. They have an incredible anointing on them. I'd think if God didn't want them in that ministry then he wouldn't pour his anointing on them. They are also two of the best pastors I've ever met, and we've been to quite a few different churches. This is our home, after searching for a church that we feel called to, this is the one.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually, Rhoda was not a diakonos. She was a paidiske. (A word that sticks in my mind for some reason).

I agree that diakonos is an ambiguous word because it had meaning outside the church. But by Acts 6 its distinct meaning in the church had been established. And it would not make sense to think that Phoebe was a servant of the church in its secular rather than ecclesiastical meaning.

Thank you. I agree that by Acts 6 the meaning was established, although, as you probably know, there are some who could argue that because the word, diakonos, is not used in that passage, the office itself came much later. Personaly, I think that the very concept of ecclesiastical servants is set out in Acts 6 and the function was assuredly there.

The only difficulty I have with the biblical definition of the office is the passage in I Timothy 3:8-13 where Paul sets forth the office in masculine terminology. The problem in the passage is his usage of the word in verse 11 which is variously translated as wives or women. It can be honestly seen as a reference to deaconesses, although the monogamy stressed by Paul is given in strict, masculine, heterosexual terms.

 

[smithed64]

If I remember correctly, that is the Episcopalian church not the Anglican. I've heard of a handful of controversial ordinations in the Anglican Church - but generally I believe it is disapproved. Episcopalian church is a completely different scenario.

Your right, I stand corrected. Thanks

 

[smithed64]

Anglicans differ in different parts of the world. The standard of sexual behaviour which applies in my province (Australia) is chastity in singleness and faithfulness in marriage (and there is no same-sex marriage in Australia).

However, that is a separate question from the ordination of women, and it is irrelevant to the question of in what capacity women may exercise ministry.

It's the God who made the rules who called me, so no anger from me. I am content to be at work in this corner of the Lord's vineyard.

Sister, It's not for me to say, what calling God has placed on anyone. And I pray that the calling you have is in order to God's Word and that you continue to obey Him. It is better to Obey than sacrifice.

 

[smithed64]

I like the idea of us being in the Angelican Church. I reminds me of the Pope Gregory Non Angli, sed Angeli!

Thankyou for giving me a smile today, however I think you will find ministry is not about authority and rules, but about service, and leadership is found with a towel.

Your welcome,
You can't have service and leadership, without Authority and rules. Leadership in of itself is Authority. Leadership has it's rules as does service. Those rules are laid out through God's Word. And we are to abide by them.
If not, there is no order in the church. Remember it was with Authority that Peter preached the first gospel message on the day of Pentecost. It was with Authority and the setting up the rules of the church in Corinthians when Paul, with the inspiration of God, set down those rules. So your right a little, there is service in the church. But service without order, is chaos. And order comes about by rules and those who are in authority to back up those rules. In the name of Christ.

 

[Major1]

The problem with diakonos is that is a relatively common word in the New Testament and is transliterated as deacon and translated as minister or servant, depending on the context. Rhoda, who answered the door when Peter was knocking was a diakonos. That is correctly translated as servant because that was her role in the household. It would be absurd to think that she was a deacon in a church.

"Absurd" is a little strong comment don't you think? I do understand your comment however.

 

[All4Christ]

"Absurd" is a little strong comment don't you think? I do understand your comment however.

Wrong quote...

 

[All4Christ]

Thank you. I agree that by Acts 6 the meaning was established, although, as you probably know, there are some who could argue that because the word, diakonos, is not used in that passage, the office itself came much later. Personaly, I think that the very concept of ecclesiastical servants is set out in Acts 6 and the function was assuredly there.

The only difficulty I have with the biblical definition of the office is the passage in I Timothy 3:8-13 where Paul sets forth the office in masculine terminology. The problem in the passage is his usage of the word in verse 11 which is variously translated as wives or women. It can be honestly seen as a reference to deaconesses, although the monogamy stressed by Paul is given in strict, masculine, heterosexual terms.

The list of requirements in 1 Timothy 3 does reference bishops and doesn't necessarily mean a woman holding the office. However, there is support for the role of deaconess even in apostolic time.

Traditionally, Phoebe is viewed as a deaconess - and has been viewed as a deaconess since the early church. However, the deaconess historically had a different role than the deacon. In particular, there were many rules at the time regarding men interacting with women. Adult women needed preparation from a female when preparing for baptism. Women and men were sometimes separated and women needed assistance at times, especially with catechism. Women who were sick and did not have male relatives around needed a woman to visit instead of a man. There was a purpose for deaconesses, but it didn't match the role of the deacon.

This is supported historically and is rather logical in my opinion. Often, the widows assisted in this, and trained the younger women of the church. Perhaps the position of "deaconess" wasn't as well developed, but the need existed from the very beginning of the Church.

ETA: Phoebe is also referred to as prostasis (προστάτις), which I believe indicates an additional type of work she performed (or perhaps it overlaps into her work as deaconess). The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon translates it:

a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources

You may already know all of this, and perhaps you agree with some (or all) of it - but I hope it will help with the discussion.

 

[Major1]

1 Tim 3:1 Does not say, in the Greek, "if a man..." (or even woman or person). What it says is ei tis - "if anyone." It is not a gendered term.

And as for women as deacons, well, deacons preach. We are ministers and exercise leadership and teaching and a degree of sacramental ministry; at least in many churches. (I say we because although I am now also a priest I have not ceased to be a deacon).

It seems to me that the prior question, before asking what men and women can do, is how we understand the scope and structure of ministry. In the New Testament I see two "orders" of ministry; deacons and elder-overseers (which later differentiated into a clear distinction between presbyters and bishops). I also see other ministries which today we might call "lay ministries" (although that's a bit anachronistic for the NT where the clergy/laity divide was not yet well established). That's where we can locate women in other leadership roles, such as prophetesses.

Now, our current churches most often do not reflect the NT patterns precisely, because ministry roles and structures have evolved over time. And I don't have an inherent problem with that, but it means that before we can argue over whether a woman can be a deacon (for example), first we need a clear agreement on what a deacon's "job description" - for what of a better term - is. Because clearly if we mean very different things we will come to different conclusions.

That just is not the case my dear. I am sure that you are using a modern translation which says what you want it to say and there are plently of them.

The oldest manuscripts clearly refer of MAN....HUSBAND.

1 Timothy 3:1-3
"This is a true saying, if a MAN desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach". One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil."

Now you make have all kinds of reason but the one you are posting is not one of them. If you look up the words in the Greek you will find that they are all referring to the MALE gender.

 

[Paidiske]

I don't need a translation; I can read the Greek. And the Greek does not say "man" in 1 Tim 3:1.

But way to be patronising and call my motives into question at the same time...

 

[Major1]

I don't need a translation; I can read the Greek. And the Greek does not say "man" in 1 Tim 3:1.

But way to be patronising and call my motives into question at the same time...

I am absolutely sure that what you have been told is what you believe to be true.

However, Literally in the Greek, “The husband of one wife”: translates as a “one woman MAN.”

The clear implication is that women are not to serve in any role which involves the authoritative spiritual teaching of men. By this definition, the role of teaching pastor/shepherd is reserved for men not because I say that but because the Bible says that. This is confirmed in the two passages which deal specifically with the qualifications for church leadership in
1 Timothy 3:1-13; Titus 1:6-9.

There Church leaders are described as the "husband of one wife," "a man whose children believe," and "men worthy of respect."

Now anyone can explain away what the Scriptures actually say but the point is.....they still say what God said.

 

[Philip_B]

they still say what God said

I hope you are not suggesting that the Bible is to be understood in the way that Islam understands to Koran.

And, by the way you still need to sound a little less patronising.

 

[gerbilwoman]

Not according to the Catholic church. However, I don't understand why they have that view and I don't agree with it.

 

[Major1]

I hope you are not suggesting that the Bible is to be understood in the way that Islam understands to Koran.

And, by the way you still need to sound a little less patronising.

Apparently you believe that we can pick and choose what we want to believe. It seems to me that you are thinking I had some input on the things said in the Scriptures.

All I do is read them. Period! Now if you think that quoting Scriptures and drawing lessons and actual historical truth is patronizing, I guess you are free to make an opinion as is all the rest of us. The truth however is that I am not nearly as well educated as most here as I am nothing but an old country boy from the Promised land of UA.

In fact I had to look up what "condescending" means to apply it to your claim of patronizing.

But thanks for your advice and may the Lord bless you.

 

[Paidiske]

However, Literally in the Greek, “The husband of one wife”: translates as a “one woman MAN.”

The clear implication is...

But the text does not explicitly say what you say it implies. That is your way of making sense of it. Others have concluded, after taking other texts into account, that what the text implies is that these qualifications apply to anyone of either sex who takes up a leadership role.

Either implication is a possible way of reading the text. Neither is "explaining away" the text. All of us have to do the best we can with the understanding we have, and that will be shaped by other factors outside the text as well, of course.

I don't have a problem with the fact that Christians disagree on this; I think we are free to, and God will cope and bless our several attempts to honour and obey God. What I have a problem with is when we descend to treating one another badly because of it.

 

[prodromos]

I don't need a translation; I can read the Greek. And the Greek does not say "man" in 1 Tim 3:1.

The surrounding context does though.

 

[Uncle Tommy]

http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/1088

Resolution On Ordination And The Role Of Women In Ministry
Kansas City, Missouri - 1984
Tags: women, ministry

WHEREAS, We, the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Kansas City, June 12-14, 1984, recognize the authority of Scripture in all matters of faith and practice including the autonomy of the local church; and

WHEREAS, The New Testament enjoins all Christians to proclaim the gospel; and

WHEREAS, The New Testament churches as a community of faith recognized God's ordination and anointing of some believers for special ministries (e.g., 1 Timothy 2:7; Titus 1:15) and in consequence of their demonstrated loyalty to the gospel, conferred public blessing and engaged in public dedicatory prayer setting them apart for service; and

WHEREAS, The New Testament does not mandate that all who are divinely called to ministry be ordained; and

WHEREAS, In the New Testament, ordination symbolizes spiritual succession to the world task of proclaiming and extending the gospel of Christ, and not a sacramental transfer of unique divine grace that perpetuates apostolic authority; and

WHEREAS, The New Testament emphasizes the equal dignity of men and women (Gal. 3:28) and that the Holy Spirit was at Pentecost divinely outpoured on men and women alike (Acts 2:17); and

WHEREAS, Women as well as men prayed and prophesied in public worship services (1 Cor. 11:2-16), and Priscilla joined her husband in teaching Apollos (Acts 18:26), and women fulfilled special church service-ministries as exemplified by Phoebe whose work Paul tributes as that of a servant of the church (Rom. 16:1); and

WHEREAS, The Scriptures attest to God's delegated order of authority (God the head of Christ, Christ the head of man, man the head of woman, man and woman dependent one upon the other to the glory of God) distinguishing the roles of men and women in public prayer and prophecy (1 Cor. 11:2-5); and

WHEREAS, The Scriptures teach that women are not in public worship to assume a role of authority over men lest confusion reign in the local church (1 Cor. 14:33-36); and

WHEREAS, While Paul commends women and men alike in other roles of ministry and service (Titus 2:1-10), he excludes women from pastoral leadership (1 Tim. 2:12) to preserve a submission God requires because the man was first in creation and the woman was first in the Edenic fall (1 Tim. 2:13ff); and

WHEREAS, These Scriptures are not intended to stifle the creative contribution of men and women as co-workers in many roles of church service, both on distant mission fields and in domestic ministries, but imply that women and men are nonetheless divinely gifted for distinctive areas of evangelical engagement; and



WHEREAS, Women are held in high honor for their unique and significant contribution to the advancement of Christ's kingdom, and the building of godly homes should be esteemed for its vital contribution to developing personal Christian character and Christlike concern for others.

Therefore, be it RESOLVED, That we not decide concerns of Christians doctrine and practice by modern cultural, sociological, and ecclesiastical trends or by emotional factors; that we remind ourselves of the dearly bought Baptist principle of the final authority of Scripture in matters of faith and conduct; and that we encourage the service of women in all aspects of church life and work other than pastoral functions and leadership roles entailing ordination.