Can the Church Survive Without God's Word?

[bekkilyn]

Right, some people kiss the Bible.
That would be making an idol out of the Bible.
But seeking to conform one's life to the Bible and or regarding it as God's holy Word is not idolatry.
We have to think that the Bible are the words of God.
They convey the thoughts and mind of God.

The scriptures contain SOME of the thoughts and mind of God that sometimes manages to speak through the writings of human beings, but God is much, much, much, much, bigger and greater than any amount of words on a page written by people. The Bible as we know it could not even hope to contain him, or even a speck of him. To conform to a book, even an inspired one, rather than to the very person of God himself is putting the book ahead of God.

 

[FireDragon76]

Wow...

Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

"Substance" and "evidence"...sounds like the Bible is faith...so, you basically said "Needing 'faith, faith, faith' for everything is a perfect example of bad faith." (paraphrase)...

Nope. I'm criticizing something altogether different. I've got no problems with faith qua faith , it's people who use the Bible as a weapon to justify themselves and attack the dignity or wellbeing of other people that I have a problem with.

 

[FireDragon76]

You say using only the bible is bad faith? I prefer only the bible. My faith is pure and unpolluted by tradition.

That's not what I mean by bad faith.

definition from Google for bad faith:

(in existentialist philosophy) refusal to confront facts or choices.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

No, its how i interpreted your words.

If you misinterpret my words this way, the bible would be another victim, I'd imagine.

 

[Bumble Bee]

MOD HAT ON
This thread has been cleaned. Please refrain from making personal and insulting remarks to each other and about groups of members. Remain on the topic of the thread.
MOD HAT OFF ​

 

[W2L]

If you misinterpret my words this way, the bible would be another victim, I'd imagine.

You called my post cult-ish. What is there to misinterpret?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The scriptures contain SOME of the thoughts and mind of God that sometimes manages to speak through the writings of human beings, but God is much, much, much, much, bigger and greater than any amount of words on a page written by people. The Bible as we know it could not even hope to contain him, or even a speck of him. To conform to a book, even an inspired one, rather than to the very person of God himself is putting the book ahead of God.

Nobody is saying the whole entirety of God is the Bible itself. The Bible says God is spirit. So obviously the whole entirety of God is not the Bible itself. But the problem I have is that you are suggesting now that godliness can be obtained outside of the Scriptures. While nobody can be godly without the Lord living in them, the Bible actually reveals this truth to us and not some vision, church tradition, prayer, etc.

All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness. Yet, you say that conforming to a book (Scripture) is wrong.

The problem I have with your low regard for the Bible is that Jesus quoted Scripture to defeat the devil. What of this instance? Was Jesus relying too much on some dead letter? The Bible says also that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God. But you say that we should not conform to a book. Jesus word's are in a book. Do you not want to follow Jesus? Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's commandments. But you say we should not conform to a book. But the Bible is telling me to conform to what it says by it's many commands within the New Testament. Who should I believe? You or the Bible? I choose the Bible because there is no other holy book like it in human history. It is indeed God's Word.

 

[Gregory95]

Amen brother ill take the words of the Word of God and the words of those who had a reputable relationship with Christ over men i have no idea if they are reputable

Nobody is saying the whole entirety of God is the Bible itself. The Bible says God is spirit. So obviously the whole entirety of God is not the Bible itself. But the problem I have is that you are suggesting now that godliness can be obtained outside of the Scriptures. While nobody can be godly without the Lord living in them, the Bible actually reveals this truth to us and not some vision, church tradition, prayer, etc.

All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness. Yet, you say that conforming to a book (Scripture) is wrong.

The problem I have with your low regard for the Bible is that Jesus quoted Scripture to defeat the devil. What of this instance? Was Jesus relying too much on some dead letter? The Bible says also that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God. But you say that we should not conform to a book. Jesus word's are in a book. Do you not want to follow Jesus? Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's commandments. But you say we should not conform to a book. But the Bible is telling me to conform to what it says by it's many commands within the New Testament. Who should I believe? You or the Bible? I choose the Bible because there is no other holy book like it in human history. It is indeed God's Word.

 

[Philip_B]

Right, some people kiss the Bible.
That would be making an idol out of the Bible.
But seeking to conform one's life to the Bible and or regarding it as God's holy Word is not idolatry.
We have to think that the Bible are the words of God.
They convey the thoughts and mind of God.

Presumptive. Dare I say perhaps even a little judgmental. If someone is away and kisses the photo they carry of someone they love, that is not an alternative to the real thing, but it is the best they have at the time and the act treasures the person. And if that person sends them a letter and they treasure it, and kiss the letter, it is not so much because they love the letter as they love the one who sent it. To kiss the Bible is simply a statement treasuring a gift we have - the word of the Lord - because we love the Lord. That is not idolatry. I think you have shot wide here, and scored an own goal.

To all:

I think we need to ask two questions here:

"Are church traditions as the same as the very words of God?"

"Do you get faith by hearing traditions or by hearing the Word of God?"

My view:

1. Church traditions are not the same as the very words of God. I believe that God speaks in scripture, but not only in scripture. The canon of scripture (ie the rule of scripture) is that we test where we think God speaks outside of scripture to ensure that it conforms with the tenor of scripture. So whilst there are examples of fratricide in scripture, the general tenor of scripture would suggest that was not something that God endorsed. So if I felt God was calling me to kill my brother it would fail the test of conformity to scripture. So too, cheating someone out of the inheritance happens in scripture, yet the tenor of scripture would suggest that this was generally wrong.
   
   
2. Many of the traditions in fact provide in many and varied ways expression of the word of God, and enable hearing of the word of God on another level, not simply audible. In an Anglican Eucharist the bread is broken and the chalice place on a piece of linen known as a corporal. At the end of the Communion of the people the ablutions (washing up) takes place, publicly. As part of this the corporal is folded carefully up and place either on top of the chalice or in a burse. This speaks loudly of Christ's ministry to gather up the broken so that none of them is lost. This quiet reminder of the faith prods me week by week, and so the tradition speaks the Word of God.

The fact is that the message of the gospel is not only spoken in words, it is spoken in creation, daily in the sunrise we are reminded of resurrection, the language of bread and wine sustains many of us on our journey, kind deeds, and helpful neighbors are all ways in which we speak the intrepid news of forgiveness and new beginnings. There are those for whom this will make sense, and there are those who will glaze over.

They have neither speech nor language
and their voices are not heard,
Yet their sound has gone out into all lands
and their words to the ends of the world.
Psalm 19:3-4​

 

[Gregory95]

If all those into tradition would speak like this we all would be much closer to being of one mind as Paul told us we should be (there would still be ground to cover but not nearly as much)

satan truly enjoy us divided

My view:

1. Church traditions are not the same as the very words of God. I believe that God speaks in scripture, but not only in scripture. The canon of scripture (ie the rule of scripture) is that we test where we think God speaks outside of scripture to ensure that it conforms with the tenor of scripture. So whilst there are examples of fratricide in scripture, the general tenor of scripture would suggest that was not something that God endorsed. So if I felt God was calling me to kill my brother it would fail the test of conformity to scripture. So too, cheating someone out of the inheritance happens in scripture, yet the tenor of scripture would suggest that this was generally wrong.
   
   
2. Many of the traditions in fact provide in many and varied ways expression of the word of God, and enable hearing of the word of God on another level, not simply audible. In an Anglican Eucharist the bread is broken and the chalice place on a piece of linen known as a corporal. At the end of the Communion of the people the ablutions (washing up) takes place, publicly. As part of this the corporal is folded carefully up and place either on top of the chalice or in a burse. This speaks loudly of Christ's ministry to gather up the broken so that none of them is lost. This quiet reminder of the faith prods me week by week, and so the tradition speaks the Word of God.

The fact is that the message of the gospel is not only spoken in words, it is spoken in creation, daily in the sunrise we are reminded of resurrection, the language of bread and wine sustains many of us on our journey, kind deeds, and helpful neighbors are all ways in which we speak the intrepid news of forgiveness and new beginnings. There are those for whom this will make sense, and there are those who will glaze over.

They have neither speech nor language
and their voices are not heard,
Yet their sound has gone out into all lands
and their words to the ends of the world.
Psalm 19:3-4​

 

[GraceBro]

Some in my other thread have begun to argue that the Bible is not strictly necessary. They said that if all the Bibles in the world were destroyed, the church would still survive. Could the church survive without God's word?

Yes, we have a relationship with Jesus, not the Bible. Jesus said, "my words will never pass away (Matthew 24:35)." Jesus is the word made flesh (John 1:14). He indwells all believers for eternity. Therefore, if we have Jesus indwelling us forever, we have His word as well. You don't need the Book when you have the Author.

 

[Gregory95]

In all sincerely and concern i ask

How do you know you don't have a false spirit that is leading you astray unless you read the NT and make sure

For Christ truly said

Not all who call me Lord will enter the Kingdom

Some He will say I never knew you

Yes, we have a relationship with Jesus, not the Bible. Jesus said, "my words will never pass away (Matthew 24:35)." Jesus is the word made flesh (John 1:14). He indwells all believers for eternity. Therefore, if we have Jesus indwelling us forever, we have His word as well. You don't need the Book when you have the Author.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You called my post cult-ish. What is there to misinterpret?

See above mod hat, this off topic conversation is over.

 

[Tone]

Yes, we have a relationship with Jesus, not the Bible. Jesus said, "my words will never pass away (Matthew 24:35)." Jesus is the word made flesh (John 1:14). He indwells all believers for eternity. Therefore, if we have Jesus indwelling us forever, we have His word as well. You don't need the Book when you have the Author.

Uhhh...you just used the Bible bro...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Presumptive. Dare I say perhaps even a little judgmental. If someone is away and kisses the photo they carry of someone they love, that is not an alternative to the real thing, but it is the best they have at the time and the act treasures the person. And if that person sends them a letter and they treasure it, and kiss the letter, it is not so much because they love the letter as they love the one who sent it. To kiss the Bible is simply a statement treasuring a gift we have - the word of the Lord - because we love the Lord. That is not idolatry. I think you have shot wide here, and scored an own goal.

The Scriptures say,

"And now they sin more and more, And make for themselves molten images, Idols skillfully made from their silver, All of them the work of craftsmen They say of them, "Let the men who sacrifice kiss the calves" (Hosea 13:2).

Paul says,

"Abstain from all appearance of evil." (1 Thessalonians 5:22).

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD"
(Isaiah 55:8).

For even

My view:

1. Church traditions are not the same as the very words of God. I believe that God speaks in scripture, but not only in scripture. The canon of scripture (ie the rule of scripture) is that we test where we think God speaks outside of scripture to ensure that it conforms with the tenor of scripture. So whilst there are examples of fratricide in scripture, the general tenor of scripture would suggest that was not something that God endorsed. So if I felt God was calling me to kill my brother it would fail the test of conformity to scripture. So too, cheating someone out of the inheritance happens in scripture, yet the tenor of scripture would suggest that this was generally wrong.
   
   
2. Many of the traditions in fact provide in many and varied ways expression of the word of God, and enable hearing of the word of God on another level, not simply audible. In an Anglican Eucharist the bread is broken and the chalice place on a piece of linen known as a corporal. At the end of the Communion of the people the ablutions (washing up) takes place, publicly. As part of this the corporal is folded carefully up and place either on top of the chalice or in a burse. This speaks loudly of Christ's ministry to gather up the broken so that none of them is lost. This quiet reminder of the faith prods me week by week, and so the tradition speaks the Word of God.

The fact is that the message of the gospel is not only spoken in words, it is spoken in creation, daily in the sunrise we are reminded of resurrection, the language of bread and wine sustains many of us on our journey, kind deeds, and helpful neighbors are all ways in which we speak the intrepid news of forgiveness and new beginnings. There are those for whom this will make sense, and there are those who will glaze over.

They have neither speech nor language
and their voices are not heard,
Yet their sound has gone out into all lands
and their words to the ends of the world.
Psalm 19:3-4​

Sorry, I do not see traditions in the same way you do. I see Jesus condemning traditions because they violated the Word of God. In fact, this is what I see happening today. Do not call any man your father (Matthew 23:9), and yet others are doing that by their tradition. Do not make idol images and bow down to these idols (Exodus 20:4-5). Yet, this is what we see men doing by their traditions, etc. Of course folks are going to say God is speaking to them to do these things to make them okay, but they have to either allegorize the Scriptures or they have to change them to fit their church traditions.

Also, church traditions cannot be proven to be holy words from God like the Bible can, too. The Bible mentions nothing about how we will be judged if we are not following the church traditions. But John 12:48 says that we can be judged by Jesus's words. I choose the Bible alone because it is the safer play. If something appears to contradict God's Word the Bible, then why take a chance with my own soul in doing that? That's the problem with church traditions. It's playing fast and loose with one's own soul and the souls of others. At least that is how I see it anyways.

May the Lord's goodness be upon you (even if we disagree).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, we have a relationship with Jesus, not the Bible. Jesus said, "my words will never pass away (Matthew 24:35)." Jesus is the word made flesh (John 1:14). He indwells all believers for eternity. Therefore, if we have Jesus indwelling us forever, we have His word as well. You don't need the Book when you have the Author.

You would not know about Jesus if it was not for the Bible. The Bible also warns us that there are false Christ's, too. How do we know about these false Christ's? By assuming we are walking with the Lord, or by some vision, or by some dream, or by some answered prayer, etc.? No. We know this by the Bible. So your argument is self refuting. You cannot speak against the foundation of the faith, which is the Word (By which you have heard about Jesus).

 

[bekkilyn]

Nobody is saying the whole entirety of God is the Bible itself. The Bible says God is spirit. So obviously the whole entirety of God is not the Bible itself. But the problem I have is that you are suggesting now that godliness can be obtained outside of the Scriptures. While nobody can be godly without the Lord living in them, the Bible actually reveals this truth to us and not some vision, church tradition, prayer, etc.

All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness. Yet, you say that conforming to a book (Scripture) is wrong.

The problem I have with your low regard for the Bible is that Jesus quoted Scripture to defeat the devil. What of this instance? Was Jesus relying too much on some dead letter? The Bible says also that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word of God. But you say that we should not conform to a book. Jesus word's are in a book. Do you not want to follow Jesus? Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. Paul says that what he has written should be regarded as the Lord's commandments. But you say we should not conform to a book. But the Bible is telling me to conform to what it says by it's many commands within the New Testament. Who should I believe? You or the Bible? I choose the Bible because there is no other holy book like it in human history. It is indeed God's Word.

One major problem I have is that you (and others) believe that the Word of God is a physical object rather than a person. You also accuse of a "low regard" for the bible simply because someone refuses to worship it (a created object) as a god rather than the Creator.

You would not know about Jesus if it was not for the Bible. The Bible also warns us that there are false Christ's, too. How do we know about these false Christ's? By assuming we are walking with the Lord, or by some vision, or by some dream, or by some answered prayer, etc.? No. We know this by the Bible. So your argument is self refuting. You cannot speak against the foundation of the faith, which is the Word (By which you have heard about Jesus).

Here yet again you have stated that the foundation of your faith is a physical object.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

One major problem I have is that you (and others) believe that the Word of God is a physical object rather than a person. You also accuse of a "low regard" for the bible simply because someone refuses to worship it (a created object) as a god rather than the Creator.

We are told to worship God in spirit and in truth.
This means we worship God (pray to God, not the Bible, we bow down to God, and not the Bible, and we hope to see God one day, and not the Bible, and we love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength, and not the Bible); And we obey His Word (the Bible) to be in a right relationship with Him.

However, you still throw down a false accusation. Nowhere do I believe or teach to worship the Bible (i.e. we bow down to a book, and regard it as actually being the whole of God), but we do regard it as the very words of God to obey as our part of our relationship with God. You may see obedience to God by a book to be offensive, but that is how God operates today. Simply do a study on God's commands in the New Testament (not the Old Testament) and you will see that the Bible is telling you to do many things under the New Covenant. Again, Jesus obedied God the Father unto death. Jesus quoted Scripture tons of times. In your view, this would be offensive for Jesus to quote Scripture all the time because you would take that as upliftig the letter of God rather than God. But Scripture says God magnifies His Word above His own name. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. 2 Timothy 3:16 all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. Paul's writings were regarded as Scripture by Peter (Which is the majority of the New Testament).

I think the problem here is that you are having problem reconciling obedience to God by His Word (the Bible) along with worshiping God. Think of the Bible as more of a book that tells us about God and as an instruction manual. It leads us to worship God and to focus on Him and His good ways.

Also, there are many commands from Jesus and His followers in the New Testament. You are basically trying to tell me that my focusing on these commands would be basically bad because it would be uplifting a book. But the book (the Bible) points to God. So I am confused here. It sounds like you are saying that my focus on the Bible is a bad thing. What about church traditions? Did Jesus speak favorably of men's traditions? Or did Jesus quote Scripture?

Here yet again you have stated that the foundation of your faith is a physical object.

Yes. The Bible tells me about Jesus. They interwined. You cannot have one without the other. A person knows about the correct version of Jesus from the Bible. We know about the correct teachings of Jesus from the Bible. This is not from some vision, dream, prayer, a book that is not the bible, etc.

Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing the Word of God. This would be hearing about the gospel message from the Bible so as to receive Jesus Christ. Without this communicated word (i.e. the Bible), there would be no acceptance of Jesus Christ. It is how God reaches out to humanity to save them by faith. It would not be faith if God just zapped us to believe. We have to take actiion to believe God and His message about Jesus and this comes from His word. In other words, the plan of salvation to accept Jesus comes from His Word (Justification), and the way of Sanctification by God is also found in the Bible. Without these two basic things (Justification and Sanctification), one cannot have a relationship with the Lord.

 

[W2L]

See above mod hat, this off topic conversation is over.

Forceful reply.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

One major problem I have is that you (and others) believe that the Word of God is a physical object rather than a person. You also accuse of a "low regard" for the bible simply because someone refuses to worship it (a created object) as a god rather than the Creator.



Here yet again you have stated that the foundation of your faith is a physical object.

We know about Jesus because of the Bible.
We know about how to live according to the teachings of Jesus by the Bible.
I believe that in order for a person to see (see the Kingdom of God spiritually), they must be:

(a) Born of the Spirit and,
(b) Born of water (water = the Scriptures, i.e. they have to hear and believe God's Word, the Bible and be transformed by His word - believing it to be a holy revelation from God).
Ephesians 5:25-27 says that the reason Christ died for us is to sanctify us by the washing of the WATER of the WORD so that he may present to Himself a church that is holy, and without blemish, etc.
Peter says that we are born not corruptible seed but by the incorruptible Word of God (See: 1 Peter 1:23-24). This is in context to the Scriptures (See: 1 Peter 1:25).