Can the Church Survive Without God's Word?

Can the church survive without God's word?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 17 43.6%
  • No.

    Votes: 22 56.4%

  • Total voters
    39

Eloy Craft

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Then the Spirit was leading Peter into all truth after Pentecost (Which was my point).
Peter was not exclusively led into all truth at Pentecost alone.
I see and I agree. So what the holy Spirit reveals to Peter and Peter receives, is all true and he was being led to all Truth. That was the point I was making.
 
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Right. They are annointed with a special charism.

So you think that they were special and it was only a gift that was exclusive to them or a few others?
What verse tells you that?

You said:
God reveals to thei mind things, and what is revealed is interpreted and that interpretation must not violate the truth of scriptures. Our own thinking can blend in with what the Holy Spirit is revealing.

I agree, that our mind must not violate the truth of the Scriptures. But 2 Timothy 2:15 still says for us to study the Scriptures to be approved unto God. So the Bible is vital to our faith.
 
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I see and I agree. So what the holy Spirit reveals to Peter and Peter receives, is all true and he was being led to all Truth. That was the point I was making.

Do you believe that believers today can be led into all truth like Peter?
 
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Philip_B

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I agree, that our mind must not violate the truth of the Scriptures. But 2 Timothy 2:15 still says for us to study the Scriptures to be approved unto God. So the Bible is vital to our faith.
2 Timothy 2:14-15
Remind them of this, and warn them before God that they are to avoid wrangling over words, which does no good but only ruins those who are listening. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth.

Ταῦτα ὑπομίμνῃσκε, διαμαρτυρόμενος ἐνώπιον τοῦ θεοῦ μὴ λογομαχεῖν, ἐπ' οὐδὲν χρήσιμον, ἐπὶ καταστροφῇ τῶν ἀκουόντων σπούδασον σεαυτὸν δόκιμον παραστῆσαι τῷ θεῷ, ἐργάτην ἀνεπαίσχυντον, ὀρθοτομοῦντα τὸν λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας​

Contextually the expression λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας (word of truth) is surely a reference to the Gospel as Paul had declared it to the Ephesians, and no doubt more widely, and indeed in we see the issue that Paul is addressing in verse following.

2 Timothy 2:17-18
and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth by claiming that the resurrection has already taken place. They are upsetting the faith of some.​

I am not against Bible Study, however it is how we go about it. We need to take care that we not become the person described by some in words similar to those used by Andrew Lang:

he uses the Bible as a drunk uses a lamppost, more for support than for illumination.

Christ has Risen! He has Risen indeed! Alleluia!
 
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2 Timothy 2:14-15
Remind them of this, and warn them before God that they are to avoid wrangling over words, which does no good but only ruins those who are listening. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth.

Ταῦτα ὑπομίμνῃσκε, διαμαρτυρόμενος ἐνώπιον τοῦ θεοῦ μὴ λογομαχεῖν, ἐπ' οὐδὲν χρήσιμον, ἐπὶ καταστροφῇ τῶν ἀκουόντων σπούδασον σεαυτὸν δόκιμον παραστῆσαι τῷ θεῷ, ἐργάτην ἀνεπαίσχυντον, ὀρθοτομοῦντα τὸν λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας​

Contextually the expression λόγον τῆς ἀληθείας (word of truth) is surely a reference to the Gospel as Paul had declared it to the Ephesians, and no doubt more widely, and indeed in we see the issue that Paul is addressing in verse following.

2 Timothy 2:17-18
and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth by claiming that the resurrection has already taken place. They are upsetting the faith of some.​

I am not against Bible Study, however it is how we go about it. We need to take care that we not become the person described by some in words similar to those used by Andrew Lang:

he uses the Bible as a drunk uses a lamppost, more for support than for illumination.

Christ has Risen! He has Risen indeed! Alleluia!

No, it's not. The Modern Translations have corrupted 2 Timothy 2:15. Even the context is talking about obedience in general (Which is obviously through studying God's Word).

1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.
7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Timothy 2:15).

One has to study God's Word so as to rightly divide the word of truth (the Scriptures). If they study closely how to obey God the right way with pure motivations (according to the Bible), they will depart from iniquity. It of course starts with the gospel. Believing in Jesus's death and resurrection. But then God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). If a person takes away God's Word or they de-emphasize His Word as being important, and they pull the rug out from the very faith we stand upon. Jesus is our foundation, and we build upon Jesus via by knowing more about Him, and His will according to His Word. Studying His Word and going through the Sanctification process of the Holy Spirit. For not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he that does the will of the Father.

Many today think that God will cater to their selfish sinful motivations and desires and beliefs because they have a belief in Jesus or a passing belief in the Bible. But if one has not been touched by God's Word and truly had an experience with the Lord Jesus Christ in spirit and in truth, then they are just playing religion to satisfy their own wrong selfish desires. Most today do not want to follow God and they do not want to DO what He says exactly according to His Word. They prefer to do their own thing. They want God and their own version of His Word, or they want God and His Word + something else. Some of them want to look holy in front of others or to do what they feel is good for them. To have one foot in what they believe to be God's kingdom and one foot in their own kingdom. But Paul says we have to offer our bodies as a willing sacrifice unto God (Which is our reasonable service). Jesus died for me, it is only reasonable that I live completely unto Him. For God's thoughts are not our thoughts.

In the end, we will have to explain our thoughts, motivations, and actions to God. Did we truly follow what His Word says alone, or did we do our own thing?
 
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GraceBro

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You would not know about Jesus if it was not for the Bible. The Bible also warns us that there are false Christ's, too. How do we know about these false Christ's? By assuming we are walking with the Lord, or by some vision, or by some dream, or by some answered prayer, etc.? No. We know this by the Bible. So your argument is self refuting. You cannot speak against the foundation of the faith, which is the Word (By which you have heard about Jesus).
And yet you use no scripture to make your point. Anyway. God Bless.
 
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GraceBro

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In all sincerely and concern i ask

How do you know you don't have a false spirit that is leading you astray unless you read the NT and make sure

For Christ truly said

Not all who call me Lord will enter the Kingdom

Some He will say I never knew you
I'm responding to him asking would the church survive if all the Bibles were destroyed, not saying the Bible is unnecessary. SMH Besides, we have the Holy Spirit guiding us into all truth. If you have the Author indwelling you, that is even better than having the book. But, anyway, God bless.
 
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Philip_B

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No, it's not. The Modern Translations have corrupted 2 Timothy 2:15. Even the context is talking about obedience in general (Which is obviously through studying God's Word).
That's why I gave you the Greek. And whilst I see the attraction you find in eisegeting scripture into the passage, a more comfortable read would be the message that Paul had already delivered to them.
 
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That's why I gave you the Greek. And whilst I see the attraction you find in eisegeting scripture into the passage, a more comfortable read would be the message that Paul had already delivered to them.

Surely you do not know Greek like the apostle Paul or the tons of translators on the King James bible. I gave you the King James Bible which is the bible we had for several hundred years long before the Modern Translations showed up. I also showed you the context, too. In fact, in the next chapter we have the famous Sola Scriptura passage (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Study to show yourself approved definitely makes sense in light of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (Which is the CONTEXT that you cannot change with the Greek). All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness. Instruction in righteousness. Scripture. How do you go about learning instruction in righteousness? Well, if we go back a chapter, it says to study God's Word in 2 Timothy 2:15. That is what it is saying.

13 "For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Hebrews 5:13-14).
 
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Philip_B

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Surely you do not know Greek like the apostle Paul or the tons of translators on the King James bible. I gave you the King James Bible which is the bible we had for several hundred years long before the Modern Translations showed up.

Congratulations Philip, you have arrive at the Mad Hatter Tea Party.

KJV Translation committees
First Westminster Company, translated Genesis to 2 Kings:
Lancelot Andrewes, John Overall, Hadrian à Saravia, Richard Clarke, John Layfield, Robert Tighe, Francis Burleigh, Geoffrey King, Richard Thomson, William Bedwell;​
First Cambridge Company, translated 1 Chronicles to the Song of Solomon:
Edward Lively, John Richardson, Lawrence Chaderton, Francis Dillingham, Roger Andrewes, Thomas Harrison, Robert Spaulding, Andrew Bing;​
First Oxford Company, translated Isaiah to Malachi:
John Harding, John Rainolds (or Reynolds), Thomas Holland, Richard Kilby, Miles Smith, Richard Brett, Daniel Fairclough, William Thorne;​
Second Oxford Company, translated the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, and the Book of Revelation
Thomas Ravis, George Abbot, Richard Eedes, Giles Tomson, Sir Henry Savile, John Peryn, Ralph Ravens, John Harmar, John Aglionby, Leonard Hutten;​
Second Westminster Company, translated the Epistles:
William Barlow, John Spenser, Roger Fenton, Ralph Hutchinson, William Dakins, Michael Rabbet, Thomas Sanderson (who probably had already become Archdeacon of Rochester);​
Second Cambridge Company, translated the Apocrypha:
John Duport, William Branthwaite, Jeremiah Radcliffe, Samuel Ward, Andrew Downes, John Bois, Robert Ward, Thomas Bilson, Richard Bancroft.​

So we know that there were 54 Translators divided into six teams and each team focused on a particular section of the books. There were a number of further general editors overseeing the whole project, including John Bois, Andrew Downes, John Harmar, Arthur Lake, and and possibly others with Richard Bancroft (Archbishop of Canterbury). The Project arose based on the realisation that there were some shortcomings in the existing translations (eg The Kings Bible). The whole project undertaken in 1604, and went to print in 1611.

It is worth noting that the KJV was published including 14 Deutero Canonical Texts which earlier in this thread you were keen to remove.

King James Only movement - Wikipedia

I take the view that the KJV is an historically important translation. The determination was the the people had access to the best translation possible in its day. There is no doubt in places it was possibly influenced by the Vulgate (an ancient Latin Translation), yet also referenced as many ancient texts as possible.

To determine that modern translations are corrupt, is simply insulting and silly. The reality is as a result of archaeology and efforts we have many more ancient manuscripts than they had at the beginning of the 17th Century. Yet that still is not the main issue here. Elizabethan English is not the language of the people of today. English is dynamic, and whilst once we prayed that magistrates might execute justice indifferently, today we might pray that magistrates might dispense the law impartially.

Proverbs 17:17
A friend loves at all times,
and kinsfolk are born to share adversity. (NRSV)

A friend loves at all times,
and a brother is born for a time of adversity. (KJV)​

I used this passage from the KJV translation to explain why my brother and I fought so much. Thankfully having grown older we have discovered that the NRSV more accurately represents the truth.
 
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Congratulations Philip, you have arrive at the Mad Hatter Tea Party.

KJV Translation committees
First Westminster Company, translated Genesis to 2 Kings:
Lancelot Andrewes, John Overall, Hadrian à Saravia, Richard Clarke, John Layfield, Robert Tighe, Francis Burleigh, Geoffrey King, Richard Thomson, William Bedwell;​
First Cambridge Company, translated 1 Chronicles to the Song of Solomon:
Edward Lively, John Richardson, Lawrence Chaderton, Francis Dillingham, Roger Andrewes, Thomas Harrison, Robert Spaulding, Andrew Bing;​
First Oxford Company, translated Isaiah to Malachi:
John Harding, John Rainolds (or Reynolds), Thomas Holland, Richard Kilby, Miles Smith, Richard Brett, Daniel Fairclough, William Thorne;​
Second Oxford Company, translated the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles, and the Book of Revelation
Thomas Ravis, George Abbot, Richard Eedes, Giles Tomson, Sir Henry Savile, John Peryn, Ralph Ravens, John Harmar, John Aglionby, Leonard Hutten;​
Second Westminster Company, translated the Epistles:
William Barlow, John Spenser, Roger Fenton, Ralph Hutchinson, William Dakins, Michael Rabbet, Thomas Sanderson (who probably had already become Archdeacon of Rochester);​
Second Cambridge Company, translated the Apocrypha:
John Duport, William Branthwaite, Jeremiah Radcliffe, Samuel Ward, Andrew Downes, John Bois, Robert Ward, Thomas Bilson, Richard Bancroft.​

So we know that there were 54 Translators divided into six teams and each team focused on a particular section of the books. There were a number of further general editors overseeing the whole project, including John Bois, Andrew Downes, John Harmar, Arthur Lake, and and possibly others with Richard Bancroft (Archbishop of Canterbury). The Project arose based on the realisation that there were some shortcomings in the existing translations (eg The Kings Bible). The whole project undertaken in 1604, and went to print in 1611.

It is worth noting that the KJV was published including 14 Deutero Canonical Texts which earlier in this thread you were keen to remove.

King James Only movement - Wikipedia

I take the view that the KJV is an historically important translation. The determination was the the people had access to the best translation possible in its day. There is no doubt in places it was possibly influenced by the Vulgate (an ancient Latin Translation), yet also referenced as many ancient texts as possible.

To determine that modern translations are corrupt, is simply insulting and silly. The reality is as a result of archaeology and efforts we have many more ancient manuscripts than they had at the beginning of the 17th Century. Yet that still is not the main issue here. Elizabethan English is not the language of the people of today. English is dynamic, and whilst once we prayed that magistrates might execute justice indifferently, today we might pray that magistrates might dispense the law impartially.

Proverbs 17:17
A friend loves at all times,
and kinsfolk are born to share adversity. (NRSV)

A friend loves at all times,
and a brother is born for a time of adversity. (KJV)​

I used this passage from the KJV translation to explain why my brother and I fought so much. Thankfully having grown older we have discovered that the NRSV more accurately represents the truth.

No other translation has been done like the KJV. It was a massive undertaking. No other later translation compares to it’s purity.

As for the NRSV:

Westcott and Hort Greek Text:
(RV, NRSV, NIV, NASB, CEV, New Century Version, Good News for Modern Man, Jehovah Witness bible, The Book, The Everyday Bible, All Catholic bibles et al.).

Westcott's biographer cites that in 1858 "he was quite inaudible" (Life of Westcott, Vol. I, p. 198) and by 1870 "His voice reached few and was understood by still fewer." (Ibid., p.272).

Source:
Bible Correctors lose Voice
 
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Philip_B

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No other translation has been done like the KJV. It was a massive undertaking. No other later translation compares to it’s purity.

As for the NRSV:

Westcott and Hort Greek Text:
(RV, NRSV, NIV, NASB, CEV, New Century Version, Good News for Modern Man, Jehovah Witness bible, The Book, The Everyday Bible, All Catholic bibles et al.).

Westcott's biographer cites that in 1858 "he was quite inaudible" (Life of Westcott, Vol. I, p. 198) and by 1870 "His voice reached few and was understood by still fewer." (Ibid., p.272).

Source:
Bible Correctors lose Voice
Clearly you some things that have come from an Anglican stable.
 
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Clearly you some things that have come from an Anglican stable.

Not sure what Anglican stables has to do with this (if there is such a thing as Anglican horse stables), but the Modern Translations while they can be helpful in updating the 1600's English, they should not be our final word of authority.

full
 
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Philip_B

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Not sure what Anglican stables has to do with this (if there is such a thing as Anglican horse stables), but the Modern Translations while they can be helpful in updating the 1600's English, they should not be our final word of authority.

The KJV was undertaken on instruction of the English Monarch - James 1st of England - undertaken by 54 Scholars all but one of whom was in Anglican Orders, and this you want to take as the most authoritative text in English. The facts are that one team including Radcliffe (a leading conservative protestant) and Bancroft (AB of C) was dedicated to the translation of the OT Apocrypha or Deuterocanonicals, and you wish to specifically exclude these works out of hand. Earlier you said that the Anglican canon made no sense, however you want to enshrine an essentially Anglican translation of the canon, or at least part of it, as the abiding authority of the Holy Scriptures in English.

KJVApoc.jpg


It seems to me that you want to have your cake and eat it too.
 
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"The Bible is one of the oldest and most popular books of all time. But is it just a book, or is it much more?

We believe that the Bible is God’s Word to us — something that everyone should be able to understand in a language and form that clearly speaks to their hearts. But approximately 2,000 languages* around the world are still waiting for a translation project to begin.

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