Can the Church Survive Without God's Word?

[Tree of Life]

Some in my other thread have begun to argue that the Bible is not strictly necessary. They said that if all the Bibles in the world were destroyed, the church would still survive. Could the church survive without God's word?

I think this question gets to the heart of the relationship between God's word and God's church. Catholics and EOs are wont to say: "Jesus didn't just leave us a Bible, he left us a church." They also want to say that the Bible and the church have an equal authority and even that the church wrote the Bible! In the Catholic and EO view, it sometimes seems to be the case that it's really the church that is most important, and the Bible is just a book that the church wrote.

But what would the church be without the word of God? Isn't it the word of God that creates and continually recreates the church? Isn't it the word of God that sustains the church? Isn't it the word of God that sanctifies the church and teaches the church?

Without the word of God, the church might still function in some traditional sense. It might go on to ordain bishops, sprinkle babies, lift up crackers to heaven and break them, etc. It might even have an unbroken line of ordination succession that can be traced back to the apostles! But without the word of God, the ministry of the church would not be able to help or save anybody. The church would become a dead institution that is utterly indistinguishable from the world.

Isn't this what happened to Israel in the time of Hosea? Though they were circumcised and had maintained certain Jewish traditions, they had become "Lo-Ammi" - not my people. Without God's word, we are not his people and he is not our God.

 

[Chesterton]

Obviously, the Church did survive a long time before there was a bible, so obviously, yes.

 

[Tree of Life]

Obviously, the Church did survive a long time before there was a bible, so obviously, yes.

If you are referring to the early church after the time of Christ then I think you're very mistaken. Did they not have at least the Old Testament Scriptures? And did many of them not also have some writings of the apostles and evangelists? They may not have had the complete Bible, but they certainly had a Bible. Jesus had a Bible. We call it the Old Testament.

 

[Tree of Life]

Justin Martyr wrote in 150 and he said this is what his church was up to:

"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things."

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[redleghunter]

Could the church survive without God's word?

I think we have evidence which says no we can’t.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

It's God in himself that causes the Church to survive, not only through the word but also through the sacrament and adherence to the faith, all of which I would maintain was kept.

As a reformed Christian yourself who obviously takes a low view of the sacraments (just by your description of the Eucharist as a cracker tells me everything), do you then believe the Church didn't survive for at least a thousand years until Calvin or some other Reformed thinkers came along? Isn't this what you are implying?

From my perspective God's word has survived, not only in the physical preservation of the text but in the adherence to that text.

Let me ask you a question, can the Illiterate hold to the Christian faith?

 

[section9+1]

That's like asking can God make a rock too big for him to lift. The survival of the church is guaranteed. No question required. As to bibles, I don't know if they will continue or not, but the church will. Although it seems that it's a reasonable assumption that if the church survives, his word will carry on in some way.

 

[Tree of Life]

It's God in himself that causes the Church to survive, not only through the word but also through the sacrament and adherence to the faith, all of which I would maintain was kept.

As a reformed Christian yourself who obviously takes a low view of the sacraments (just by your description of the Eucharist as a cracker tells me everything), do you then believe the Church didn't survive for at least a thousand years until Calvin or some other Reformed thinkers came along? Isn't this what you are implying?

Not at all. But there are places where the church seriously declined and even churches that completely apostatized because God's word was not being taught or heard in those churches. The same thing happens today. But God's word has been preached and taught in every age, including from the time of Christ to the time of Calvin.

From my perspective God's word has survived, not only in the physical preservation of the text but in the adherence to that text.

Let me ask you a question, can the Illiterate hold to the Christian faith?

They certainly can. But they need someone to teach them God's word with words. The gospel cannot be communicated through the sacraments alone.

 

[redleghunter]

Isn't this what happened to Israel in the time of Hosea? Though they were circumcised and had maintained certain Jewish traditions, they had become "Lo-Ammi" - not my people. Without God's word, we are not his people and he is not our God.

This is a powerful example.

I’m reminded of this passage in defense of the church being the all in all:

1 Timothy 3: NASB

14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. (NASB)

Paul says the church is a pillar and support of the truth. She should be uplifting and promoting the truth. Not creating it or changing it.

 

[redleghunter]

Without the word of God, the church might still function in some traditional sense. It might go on to ordain bishops, sprinkle babies, lift up crackers to heaven and break them, etc. It might even have an unbroken line of ordination succession that can be traced back to the apostles! But without the word of God, the ministry of the church would not be able to help or save anybody. The church would become a dead institution that is utterly indistinguishable from the world.

I am also reminded of the following passage reading your OP:

2 Kings 22: NASB

8Then Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe, “I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD.” And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan who read it. 9Shaphan the scribe came to the king and brought back word to the king and said, “Your servants have emptied out the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of the workmen who have the oversight of the house of the LORD.”10Moreover, Shaphan the scribe told the king saying, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read it in the presence of the king.

11When the king heard the words of the book of the law, he tore his clothes.12Then the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam the son of Shaphan, Achbor the son of Micaiah, Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah the king’s servant saying, 13“Go, inquire of the LORD for me and the people and all Judah concerning the words of this book that has been found, for great is the wrath of the LORDthat burns against us, because our fathers have not listened to the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us.”

 

[bekkilyn]

Are you suggesting that it would be impossible for God to continue his church without a bible? The thing that we seem to be forgetting here is that it is not the bible or anything that *we* do that keeps the church alive. It's God. Does God work through us in many ways? Yes. But the church survives or doesn't survive because of God and not because of anything else.

Every single person on earth could possess a bible and the church could still vanish just like that if that's what God wanted to happen. Likewise, every bible in the world could vanish and the church would survive and thrive if that's what God wanted to happen.

 

[redleghunter]

Obviously, the Church did survive a long time before there was a bible, so obviously, yes.

But not without the Inspired Holy Scriptures. There’s a difference

 

[Tree of Life]

Are you suggesting that it would be impossible for God to continue his church without a bible? The thing that we seem to be forgetting here is that it is not the bible or anything that *we* do that keeps the church alive. It's God. Does God work through us in many ways? Yes. But the church survives or doesn't survive because of God and not because of anything else.

God has been pleased to create and preserve his church through his word. I suppose in some other possible world God could have done it in another way. But in our world based on how God has chosen to deal with his people, his word is most necessary in order to preserve his church.

If a group of people started meeting together and the Bible was not part of it, then there's no way that a church could survive amidst that group. If a country completely banned the Bible, then unless Bibles were secretly snuck in or people who knew the Bible were able to teach it from memory, the church could not survive in that country.

Every single person on earth could possess a bible and the church could still vanish just like that if that's what God wanted to happen. Likewise, every bible in the world could vanish and the church would survive and thrive if that's what God wanted to happen.

Sure, in some possible world. But let's just focus on our world in this thread.

 

[HTacianas]

Some in my other thread have begun to argue that the Bible is not strictly necessary. They said that if all the Bibles in the world were destroyed, the church would still survive. Could the church survive without God's word?

I think this question gets to the heart of the relationship between God's word and God's church. Catholics and EOs are wont to say: "Jesus didn't just leave us a Bible, he left us a church." They also want to say that the Bible and the church have an equal authority and even that the church wrote the Bible! In the Catholic and EO view, it sometimes seems to be the case that it's really the church that is most important, and the Bible is just a book that the church wrote.

But what would the church be without the word of God? Isn't it the word of God that creates and continually recreates the church? Isn't it the word of God that sustains the church? Isn't it the word of God that sanctifies the church and teaches the church?

Without the word of God, the church might still function in some traditional sense. It might go on to ordain bishops, sprinkle babies, lift up crackers to heaven and break them, etc. It might even have an unbroken line of ordination succession that can be traced back to the apostles! But without the word of God, the ministry of the church would not be able to help or save anybody. The church would become a dead institution that is utterly indistinguishable from the world.

Isn't this what happened to Israel in the time of Hosea? Though they were circumcised and had maintained certain Jewish traditions, they had become "Lo-Ammi" - not my people. Without God's word, we are not his people and he is not our God.

The Church existed for four hundred years without a bible. And it was the Church that compiled the bible. The Church was not built on the bible, the bible was built by the Church.

 

[redleghunter]

If you are referring to the early church after the time of Christ then I think you're very mistaken. Did they not have at least the Old Testament Scriptures? And did many of them not also have some writings of the apostles and evangelists? They may not have had the complete Bible, but they certainly had a Bible. Jesus had a Bible. We call it the Old Testament.

This is great work which breaks down the various early and later church fathers and which NT writings they quoted and/or paraphrased.

Early Christian NT References

 

[Tree of Life]

The Church existed for four hundred years without a bible. And it was the Church that compiled the bible. The Church was not built on the bible, the bible was built by the Church.

How sad.

Didn't the early church utilize the Old Testament Scriptures? What about what Justin said in 150ad?

"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things."

 

[~Zao~]

I think the question is moot because God would never bury His treasure .... or would He

 

[Tree of Life]

I think the question is moot because God would never bury His treasure .... or would He

It's not at all a moot question. Churches drift from the word of God every day. Whole denominations.

 

[HTacianas]

How sad.

Didn't the early church utilize the Old Testament Scriptures? What about what Justin said in 150ad?

"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things."

Why was the gospel of Peter not included in the bible? Why was the book of Enoch not included in the bible? What became of the protoevangellion of James? The gospel of Thomas?

Who decided all of that?

 

[redleghunter]

Let me ask you a question, can the Illiterate hold to the Christian faith?

Of course. Jesus not only said eyes that see but ears that hear.