Can Salvation be lost?

[Gregory Thompson]

I don't know how people offer strange fire these days. It seems that the term has been used to describe Charismatic practice by John MacArthur. I don't see anything in the New Testament about Christians under the New Covenant offering fire at all.

I've seen strange fire offered in a number of contexts beyond the cliche of the now.

I understand in the spiritual atmosphere in some churches what is called the holy spirit makes people more lustful, in other places more apathetic, and in other places simply blind so they cannot repent.

All of this is the work of a spirit that comes by when people worship, the effect it has on others is related to the common doctrines that are accepted in that congregation.

The type of spirit feeds on the consciousness of those gathered of one mind and creates an experience so it can continue to feed on them and their emotions.

Since people come to "know God" through an experience with one of these spirits that feeds on emotional reactions, it is not necessarily possible to lose salvation. (back on topic) However, I would say it may explain why people being exposed to the spirit do not receive salvation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I've seen strange fire offered in a number of contexts beyond the cliche of the now.

I understand in the spiritual atmosphere in some churches what is called the holy spirit makes people more lustful, in other places more apathetic, and in other places simply blind so they cannot repent.

All of this is the work of a spirit that comes by when people worship, the effect it has on others is related to the common doctrines that are accepted in that congregation.

The type of spirit feeds on the consciousness of those gathered of one mind and creates an experience so it can continue to feed on them and their emotions.

Since people come to "know God" through an experience with one of these spirits that feeds on emotional reactions, it is not necessarily possible to lose salvation. (back on topic) However, I would say it may explain why people being exposed to the spirit do not receive salvation.

I agree. If people are depending for salvation on an "experience" they may be depending on the wrong gospel. The gospel of "experiences" does not save anyone. Such people don't have faith in Christ. They have faith in experiences. True Gospel faith is a total dependence on the risen, glorified Jesus of the Bible, and the Biblical salvation promises. This is because faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and without that kind of faith it is impossible to please God. When I say "hearing the Word of God" means hearing the Word of God as the preaching of the Gospel of Christ.

There are people who believe the power of God comes through speaking in tongues, prophecy, jerking, shaking, falling down, healing, deliverance, etc. But Paul says that the Gospel of Christ is the power of God that leads to salvation to those who believe it.

(By way, there is nothing wrong with speaking with tongues, prophesying, praying for healing and deliverance. These involve the work of the Spirit for sure, but they are not the awesome power that brings a sinner to Christ).

I say that if a person is truly exposed to the Holy Spirit as the result of hearing the Gospel of Christ, they will come under conviction of sin and either come to Christ, or adamantly turn away in unbelief and rebellion. The Pharisees saw the work of the Holy Spirit through the miracles of Jesus, but they still had Him put to death.

 

[Trivalee]

Since people come to "know God" through an experience with one of these spirits that feeds on emotional reactions, it is not necessarily possible to lose salvation. (back on topic) However, I would say it may explain why people being exposed to the spirit do not receive salvation.

Would you like to elaborate more on why "it is not necessarily possible to salvation", please?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Would you like to elaborate more on why "it is not necessarily possible to salvation", please?

Your quote of what I was supposed to have said doesn't reflect what I actually said. You might need to go back to my post and see what I actually said.

My view is that if a person professes Christianity according to the "gospel" of experiences instead of the true Gospel of Christ, then he might not be saved in the first place, so in effect there is no salvation to lose. Salvation comes through faith in God's written promises surrounding the finished work of Christ on the Cross, not through faith in sensory experiences.

 

[Trivalee]

Your quote of what I was supposed to have said doesn't reflect what I actually said. You might need to go back to my post and see what I actually said.

My view is that if a person professes Christianity according to the "gospel" of experiences instead of the true Gospel of Christ, then he might not be saved in the first place, so in effect there is no salvation to lose. Salvation comes through faith in God's written promises surrounding the finished work of Christ on the Cross, not through faith in sensory experiences.

You are playing with semantics. I don't know what "if a person professes Christianity according to the gospel of experiences" means. All I know is that either one is saved or they are not. Professing Christ does not mean one is saved if it's not from the heart.

This thread is not discussing the unsaved, but the possibility of the saved losing their salvation if they FAIL to abide in Christ to the end of their mortal life.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

From the Eastern Orthodox POV, Judas is one seen throwing away the forgiveness offered by Christ. This hymn is sung on Holy Thursday which follows the Gospel reading of the betrayal.

What was it, Judas, that made you into the betrayer of the Saviour?
Did he separate you from the choir of the Apostles?
Did he deprive you of the gift of healings?
When he supped with them, did he thrust you from the table?
When he washed the others’ feet, did he despise yours?
Oh of how many good things have you become forgetful!
Your ungrateful intent is condemned, while his measureless long-suffering is proclaimed, and his great mercy.

 

[zoidar]

There are differing views on salvation.

Some Christians believe that once saved, one cannot lose salvation. IOW, they believe that eternal life is guaranteed. On the flip side, there are those that believe that even though we are saved, we still have the risk of losing our and eternal life if we fail to abide in Christ until the end of our mortal life.

What is your position on this topic? Kindly support your case with relevant scriptures.

I believe we can lose salvation. I wish we couldn't but that is what I see in scripture. I won't post any verses but I will post a 17 min video that I basically agree with, for anyone who is interested.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There are differing views on salvation.

Some Christians believe that once saved, one cannot lose salvation. IOW, they believe that eternal life is guaranteed. On the flip side, there are those that believe that even though we are saved, we still have the risk of losing our and eternal life if we fail to abide in Christ until the end of our mortal life.

What is your position on this topic? Kindly support your case with relevant scriptures.

According to the scriptures eternal life is guaranteed only to all those who continue in the faith, believing and following what Gods' Word says to the very end. Gods' salvation according to the scriptures is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says always in the present tense (now). No one receives Gods' salvation by not believing and not following what Gods' Word says and by continuing in a life of known unrepentant sin and unbelief. There is warnings about unbelief and sin and what happens to those who live that lifestyle all through the scriptures and the scriptures teach we can depart the faith at any time and be lost if we choose not to return to God in repentance seeking His forgiveness once God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word.

God bless.

 

[Fervent]

I'm not sure asking if salvation can be lost is the right question. Is salvation something that happens in a moment? One moment you're unsaved, the next saved and that's it? It seems to me the Biblical picture is of salvation as an ongoing process that happens throughout the believers life, not something attained in an instant in time. We were justified, are being justified, and will be justified just as we were sanctified, are being sanctified, and will be sanctified. Salvation isn't a point in time, but a continuum.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm not sure asking if salvation can be lost is the right question. Is salvation something that happens in a moment? One moment you're unsaved, the next saved and that's it? It seems to me the Biblical picture is of salvation as an ongoing process that happens throughout the believers life, not something attained in an instant in time. We were justified, are being justified, and will be justified just as we were sanctified, are being sanctified, and will be sanctified. Salvation isn't a point in time, but a continuum.

Reading John Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress gives good insight into the progress of the Christian walk.

 

[Trivalee]

According to the scriptures eternal life is guaranteed only to all those who continue in the faith, believing and following what Gods' Word says to the very end. Gods' salvation according to the scriptures is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says always in the present tense (now). No one receives Gods' salvation by not believing and not following what Gods' Word says and by continuing in a life of known unrepentant sin and unbelief. There is warnings about unbelief and sin and what happens to those who live that lifestyle all through the scriptures and the scriptures teach we can depart the faith at any time and be lost if we choose not to return to God in repentance seeking His forgiveness once God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word.

God bless.

Sorry for my late response. We share the same view and I have rebutted those who promote the erroneous view that "once saved, one is forever saved".

 

[Trivalee]

I'm not sure asking if salvation can be lost is the right question. Is salvation something that happens in a moment? One moment you're unsaved, the next saved and that's it? It seems to me the Biblical picture is of salvation as an ongoing process that happens throughout the believers life, not something attained in an instant in time. We were justified, are being justified, and will be justified just as we were sanctified, are being sanctified, and will be sanctified. Salvation isn't a point in time, but a continuum.

You are wrong, brother. I think you are confusing sanctification (an ongoing process throughout the believer's life) with salvation that is instant, ie the minute we believe and confess Christ. These passages prove that salvation is instant:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

 

[Fervent]

You are wrong, brother. I think you are confusing sanctification (an ongoing process throughout the believer's life) with salvation that is instant, ie the minute we believe and confess Christ. These passages prove that salvation is instant:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Those verses don't make it instantaneous, salvation is spoken of in different ways throughout Scripture. Which is why verses like Matthew 24:13, Philippians 2:13, and others that call on believers to persevere to the end exist. Salvation isn't simply a past, momentary experience and it is that confusion that makes verses that pose no difficulty to a proper understanding of salvation suddenly problematic. Salvation is historic, present, and eschatological. It is not a moment-in-time experience, and so the only personal assurance of salvation exists after all has been accomplished.

 

[Trivalee]

I believe we can lose salvation. I wish we couldn't but that is what I see in scripture. I won't post any verses but I will post a 17 min video that I basically agree with, for anyone who is interested.

I enjoyed your video and have noted your position on the subject. The video is beautiful and well presented. The phrase, can salvation be lost, is a matter of semantics. Of course, it can be phrased differently, but what matters is that the reader understands the question.

Those who are uncomfortable with the reality that salvation is not a get-out-of-hell-free-card, argue that those who fail to endure to the end were never saved, to begin with. When pressed for scriptural support, they quote scriptures out of context. I will use only two passages to nail my case that salvation is not permanent and can be lost if we fail to endure to the end.

In the Olivet discourse, Jesus warned the disciples and by extension, believers throughout the church age that only those who endure unto the end shall be saved.

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

To understand this text, first, we must recognise that Jesus was addressing saved believers. For an unbeliever cannot endure for a cause he does not believe in. Shall be "saved" here should not be mistaken as coming to faith, or being saved like one that has just accepted Christ or born-again. Such rendition is wrong because Jesus was referring to those who are already in Christ!

Also, the end in the text denotes the end of the believer's mortal life because according to Rom 6:7, we sin no more after death. IOW, our fate is sealed at death and our relationship with God at the point of death determines whether we resurrect unto life or condemnation (John 5:29).

Another example of note is Paul's famous argument concerning his people Israel in Rom 11. He started with a rhetoric question "Has God cast out his people?" And then went on to declare "God forbid" and stated that he, too, was an Israelite. At the end of the chapter, he expressed hope for Israel’s redemption – which I agree with. I don’t believe in the Replacement theology.

Every real Christian knows the narrative in this chapter, so I will cut to the chase. After acknowledging the sin of his people Israel as the reason they were broken off from the olive tree (Jesus Christ), he pointed out that Gentiles were subsequently grafted in by faith.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded but fear.

11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The Gentiles (everyone that is non-Jewish) grafted into the olive tree refer to those who are born-again and in Christ. An unbelieving Gentile cannot be grafted into Christ! Where other texts are ambiguous e.g. Heb 6:4-6, etc, on whether one can lose their salvation, Rom 11:21 dispels any doubt.

In conclusion, we see believers in Matt 24:13 and Rom 11:21 warned as clear as can be, that they MUST endure, abide or remain in Christ all through their mortal life in other to receive the fruit of salvation, ie immortality/eternal life. So, in the end, it comes down to the individual - whether they wish to believe the holy scriptures or twist it to validate their warped doctrine thereof. I hope this helps.

 

[Trivalee]

Those verses don't make it instantaneous, salvation is spoken of in different ways throughout Scripture. Which is why verses like Matthew 24:13, Philippians 2:13, and others that call on believers to persevere to the end exist. Salvation isn't simply a past, momentary experience and it is that confusion that makes verses that pose no difficulty to a proper understanding of salvation suddenly problematic. Salvation is historic, present, and eschatological. It is not a moment-in-time experience, and so the only personal assurance of salvation exists after all has been accomplished.

The first lesson in understanding the scriptures is to pay attention to the context. IOW, let the passage interpret itself. If you read a passage with your mind already made up on what you think it says, you are very likely to get it wrong.

If you follow the context you will understand that Matt 24:13 is not about salvation as Jesus was talking to those who already believe in him as I explained in post #74. Maybe you cited the wrong passage in error, but I see nothing in Phil 2:13 that relates to the discussion.

 

[zoidar]

I enjoyed your video and have noted your position on the subject. The video is beautiful and well presented. The phrase, can salvation be lost, is a matter of semantics. Of course, it can be phrased differently, but what matters is that the reader understands the question.

Those who are uncomfortable with the reality that salvation is not a get-out-of-hell-free-card, argue that those who fail to endure to the end were never saved, to begin with. When pressed for scriptural support, they quote scriptures out of context. I will use only two passages to nail my case that salvation is not permanent and can be lost if we fail to endure to the end.

In the Olivet discourse, Jesus warned the disciples and by extension, believers throughout the church age that only those who endure unto the end shall be saved.

Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

To understand this text, first, we must recognise that Jesus was addressing saved believers. For an unbeliever cannot endure for a cause he does not believe in. Shall be "saved" here should not be mistaken as coming to faith, or being saved like one that has just accepted Christ or born-again. Such rendition is wrong because Jesus was referring to those who are already in Christ!

Also, the end in the text denotes the end of the believer's mortal life because according to Rom 6:7, we sin no more after death. IOW, our fate is sealed at death and our relationship with God at the point of death determines whether we resurrect unto life or condemnation (John 5:29).

Another example of note is Paul's famous argument concerning his people Israel in Rom 11. He started with a rhetoric question "Has God cast out his people?" And then went on to declare "God forbid" and stated that he, too, was an Israelite. At the end of the chapter, he expressed hope for Israel’s redemption – which I agree with. I don’t believe in the Replacement theology.

Every real Christian knows the narrative in this chapter, so I will cut to the chase. After acknowledging the sin of his people Israel as the reason they were broken off from the olive tree (Jesus Christ), he pointed out that Gentiles were subsequently grafted in by faith.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded but fear.

11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

The Gentiles (everyone that is non-Jewish) grafted into the olive tree refer to those who are born-again and in Christ. An unbelieving Gentile cannot be grafted into Christ! Where other texts are ambiguous e.g. Heb 6:4-6, etc, on whether one can lose their salvation, Rom 11:21 dispels any doubt.

In conclusion, we see believers in Matt 24:13 and Rom 11:21 warned as clear as can be, that they MUST endure, abide or remain in Christ all through their mortal life in other to receive the fruit of salvation, ie immortality/eternal life. So, in the end, it comes down to the individual - whether they wish to believe the holy scriptures or twist it to validate their warped doctrine thereof. I hope this helps.

I agree with much of what you said. I have some problem with the last part "in the end it comes down to the individual". I don't know why some people lose faith, but of course the individual is responsible. At the same time God wants to keep us and won't cut us off the tree for just any reason. He also fertilizes the soil. So... given, we trust in Him and not our own efforts.

 

[Fervent]

The first lesson in understanding the scriptures is to pay attention to the context. IOW, let the passage interpret itself. If you read a passage with your mind already made up on what you think it says, you are very likely to get it wrong.

If you follow the context you will understand that Matt 24:13 is not about salvation as Jesus was talking to those who already believe in him as I explained in post #74. Maybe you cited the wrong passage in error, but I see nothing in Phil 2:13 that relates to the discussion.

Yes, context matters. And Matthew 24 speaks nothing of belief or those who believe, it comes alongside several parables that demonstrate that salvation comes in the end. The idea that salvation is a once-and-done thing is absent from the original materials, and the historical sources never mention any such idea until Luther's commentary on Romans. It's an anachronistic way of thinking that doesn't make sense of the whole body of Scripture on the topic of salvation.

 

[Hammster]

There are differing views on salvation.

Some Christians believe that once saved, one cannot lose salvation. IOW, they believe that eternal life is guaranteed. On the flip side, there are those that believe that even though we are saved, we still have the risk of losing our and eternal life if we fail to abide in Christ until the end of our mortal life.

What is your position on this topic? Kindly support your case with relevant scriptures.

Salvation cannot be lost. There’s no category in scripture for that. God is the one who changes the heart. We can’t undo what God has done.

I know you want scripture, but there’s a lot and I don’t want to flood this thread. Suffice it to say, the first 11 chapters of Romans explains it nicely.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

According to the scriptures *Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 salvation can be lost if we choose to no longer believe and follow what Gods' Word says and continue in a life of known unrepentant sin. According to Jesus not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven *Matthew 7:21 and again "He that believes (present tense) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not (present tense) the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him." John 3:31. It is only those who believe to the end that are saved *Matthew 24:13.

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

 

[Hammster]

According to the scriptures *Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 salvation can be lost if we choose to no longer believe and follow what Gods' Word says and continue in a life of known unrepentant sin. According to Jesus not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven *Matthew 7:21 and again "He that believes (present tense) on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not (present tense) the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him." John 3:31. It is only those who believe to the end that are saved *Matthew 24:13.

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

You’re almost right. You can violate the covenant and incur the cursings of the covenant. But that’s not the same thing as “losing” salvation. There’s no “losing” language in the covenant.