Can Salvation be lost?

[Trivalee]

Who saves/ Is it our efforts, or is it all of God?
Because if it is God who saves us we cannot, by our efforts loose what he has given us.

Interesting remarks indeed. It's unfortunate you couldn't back this view with any scripture. Another question for you: since we are "saved" not by "our efforts", how do you explain why unbelievers remain unsaved? Is God partial by choosing who to save and ignore?

 

[d taylor]

_​

That a believer can forfeit their Eternal Life (salvation) is some kind of man made concocted idea, with no Biblical support.

 

[Trivalee]

Great question

My position:
Once “saved”, I can’t see how it could be lost, since it would require an active effort of the person to abandon the Lord.

But, then, one must ask the question:
What does it mean to be “saved”?

Funny you said, "it would require an active effort for the saved to abandon the Lord". Contrary to that position, it's quite easy to abandon the Lord! One only has to turn to sin repeatedly and reject Christ. Don't tell me it's hard to commit sin?

Paul complained bitterly in his letter to Timothy about some of the Apostles that were working with him, who later turned away from Christ (they turned from the faith). See below.

1 Tim 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Those who argue that once saved, it's impossible to lose salvation claim that those who turn away from the Lord were never saved, to begin with - but that's utter rubbish if you ask me! Because those working with Paul in the ministry, whether as a fellow apostle or as a 'help/assistant' is saved! Why? Because to the unsaved, the gospel is boring and senseless! Why would they follow Paul on his tedious journeys on what they do not believe in?

Paul also lamented about Phygellus and Hermogenes (2 Tim 1:15).

In Matt 24:13 Jesus warned the disciples (the church) that " But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved". Shall be saved in this context is not a reference to being born again given that the disciples were all born-again or saved except Judas Iscariot. So what did Jesus mean in this passage?

To understand the text, we must examine the words that stand out:

• Endure - this means to remain steadfast, faithful in the face of persecution and trial that one would face as a Christian. Also to suffer tribulation for Christ and not deny him.
• The End - this is a reference to the end of the mortal life of the believer. A man's fate is sealed after death because the dead cannot commit sin. The significance here is that after death - resurrection awaits - either resurrection to eternal life or condemnation in hellfire.
• Shall be Saved - the disciples were already saved or born-again if you like, by the time Jesus was speaking to them. So to be saved here is not about coming to faith, but to receive eternal life and immortality in the next age.

IOW, the Lord was telling them that despite being born-again/saved; yet if any believer fails to abide/remain in Him (Christ) while they are alive, such a person will not receive eternal life. Remember that salvation (eternal life, immortality, spiritual body) is a promise; we don't have it now. But it will be given to us when the Lord returns if we abide/endured to the end of our life. So salvation can be lost if one fails to abide in Christ until death.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Safety is found only in the care of the Good Shepherd.
Outside of the sheepfold is peril, snares, and ravenous wolves.

It's not about "losing" our salvation. Salvation isn't an object that we possess that can be misplaced or lost. Salvation is a verb, it's what God has done and is doing--and indeed, will do in the end.

There is Christ our Ship and Anchor who keeps us in the safety of God's harbor.
And there is the torrential and stormy seas that dash us against the rocks if we jump overboard.

The warnings we have received against falling away are not intended to scare us into submission, but to keep us sober-minded and clear-headed.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Trivalee]

_​

That a believer can forfeit their Eternal Life (salvation) is some kind of man made concocted idea, with no Biblical support.

Can you support this view with scripture?

 

[Trivalee]

Safety is found only in the care of the Good Shepherd.
Outside of the sheepfold is peril, snares, and ravenous wolves.

It's not about "losing" our salvation. Salvation isn't an object that we possess that can be misplaced or lost. Salvation is a verb, it's what God has done and is doing--and indeed, will do in the end.

There is Christ our Ship and Anchor who keeps us in the safety of God's harbor.
And there is the torrential and stormy seas that dash us against the rocks if we jump overboard.

The warnings we have received against falling away are not intended to scare us into submission, but to keep us sober-minded and clear-headed.

-CryptoLutheran

Really disappointing that none of the brothers who believe salvation is for keeps has not provided even one scripture in support.

Let's look at your reference to the warning to believers about the consequences of falling away. According to you, the warning was not meant to scare but to keep us "sober-minded and clear-headed".

Let me ask you a simple question: if there is zero chance of a saved believer falling away (depart from Christ), what then was the point of the warning? Why was it necessary? Can you warn a 1yr old baby not to climb the apple tree in the garden lest he falls off the branches? Of course, you wouldn't because such a warning is unnecessary since the toddler is barely able to walk without falling much less climbing a tree. So where there is a warning in the bible, then it is possible that the object of the warning can happen.

I, therefore, put it to you that the warning about falling away was necessary because the Lord knew that some believers will reject him and turn back to the world. In an earlier post, I cited a couple of examples of those working with Paul who turned away from the Gospel (1 Tim 1:19-20 & 2Tim 1:15)

 

[Gregory Thompson]

There are differing views on salvation.

Some Christians believe that once saved, one cannot lose salvation. IOW, they believe that eternal life is guaranteed. On the flip side, there are those that believe that even though we are saved, we still have the risk of losing our and eternal life if we fail to abide in Christ until the end of our mortal life.

What is your position on this topic? Kindly support your case with relevant scriptures.

My understanding of salvation is that we are born again by the Holy Spirit. We are given the same quality of life God has.

So the question I live in when I read questions such as "can salvation be lost?" is "can God die?" and "what happens to us if God dies?"

Since God cannot die, those who have been given new life by God, neither can we. This is the good news.

The specifics surrounding meeting the standard all rest with God who causes these changes to occur within us, and is the only one worthy of holding his servants to account.

Saying whether salvation can be lost or not, implies that judgments over who is saved and who is not are already kicking around in your noggin. Judging whether people are saved or not, is really God's job, not yours.

 

[Trivalee]

If we abide in Him, God will never let go of us, but we are always free to let go of Him, to stop abiding whenever we please.

By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked (1 John 2:3–6).

When we have an abiding trust in Jesus, we can know that we are a child of God and that He will finish what He began in your life. “Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ” (Philippians 1:6). How do we complete the race that we began when we first accepted the Savior? “Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2).

We can have the assurance of salvation if we keep our eyes on Christ and hold fast to His Word. We can know that we have eternal life when we continue to walk in God’s ways by faith.

But if we believe that once we accept Jesus we can turn away from Him and still be saved, we are swallowing an artificial gospel that could leave us with great disappointment.

One can choose to walk away from Christ .... God does not force Himself on anyone.

One can forfeit their salvation ... one always has freedom of choice.

Thank you, eleos1954. Add this to the mix.

In Rom 11 Paul warned Gentiles that although Israel was plucked off the olive tree (Christ) for unbelief and they, grafted in, he exhorted them (myself and every other Christian that is not an ethnic Jew) to always remain in Christ otherwise they too, will be cut off.

To cut off here denotes loss of salvation! And what will cause the Lord to cut anyone off? Turning away from him!

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

It bothers me that a lot of Christians who don't really understand their bible are relying on assumptions and innuendoes in their Christian journey. Apostle Paul warned: 1 Cor 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he stand, take heed lest he fall

I forgot to add that to be grafted into the olive tree means to be saved/born-again. Because an unbeliever cannot be grafted into the olive tree. Yet, Paul warned in unambiguous terms about the consequences of failing to remain in Christ.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand. (Romans 14:4)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Interesting remarks indeed. It's unfortunate you couldn't back this view with any scripture. Another question for you: since we are "saved" not by "our efforts", how do you explain why unbelievers remain unsaved? Is God partial by choosing who to save and ignore?

The invitation to trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross is open to all. "God so loved the world that He sent His Son, so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but that all may come to repentance".
(John 3:16). But not all will repent of their sin and believe the Gospel. The Scripture also says, "To those who receive Christ, God gives them the right to be called the children of God." Unbelievers who refuse to repent and believe the Gospel love their sin more than Christ, and therefore refuse the invitation.

Praying the sinner's prayer has sent more people to hell than anything else. This is because unbelievers don't get saved by praying a prayer at the front of a church. Anyone can pray, "I believe that Christ died for me and I repent of my sins" and yet not be saved. It is not promising to repent, it is actually doing it, and actively believing the Gospel by turning away from the works of the flesh and showing the fruit of repentance. This is not a works-based salvation. It is our faith by actively believing the Gospel and seeking God for the indwelling Holy Spirit to fully convert us to Christ, causing the transformation of heart to hate sin and love righteousness. Many who prayed the sinner's prayer but did not go on to show the fruit of righteousness through a transformed life will wake up in Hell; because their profession of Christ was just talk - lip service. That's what James says, "If you say you have faith, let's see your faith expressed in what you do. If you can't, then your faith is dead."

In my younger days, I was involved an evangelistic outreach group who went to holiday destinations and preached the Gospel. We received hundreds of decision cards, but less than 2% were found to be regular church members six months later. Those were the ones who meant business with God and went on to be transformed by the Holy Spirit. The other 98%, in spite of praying the sinner's prayer and signing a decision card, did nothing more, carried on with their normal life, still on the broad road to Hell. For years I didn't know why our efforts to get souls saved were so ineffective. Now I know. We didn't preach the right Gospel to them. We told them that if they prayed a sinner's prayer and sign the card they would be saved. That was a lie, and it effectively sent that 98% to Hell thinking they were saved. That was nearly 50 years ago, so I wonder how many of those who signed the decision cards have now woken up in Hell crying out, "I shouldn't be here! I prayed the prayer, and signed the card!" I can hear the Lord saying, "Ah...but you didn't go on to actually repent of your sins and seek for full conversion by the Holy Spirit".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Funny you said, "it would require an active effort for the saved to abandon the Lord". Contrary to that position, it's quite easy to abandon the Lord! One only has to turn to sin repeatedly and reject Christ. Don't tell me it's hard to commit sin?

Paul complained bitterly in his letter to Timothy about some of the Apostles that were working with him, who later turned away from Christ (they turned from the faith). See below.

1 Tim 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Those who argue that once saved, it's impossible to lose salvation claim that those who turn away from the Lord were never saved, to begin with - but that's utter rubbish if you ask me! Because those working with Paul in the ministry, whether as a fellow apostle or as a 'help/assistant' is saved! Why? Because to the unsaved, the gospel is boring and senseless! Why would they follow Paul on his tedious journeys on what they do not believe in?

Paul also lamented about Phygellus and Hermogenes (2 Tim 1:15).

In Matt 24:13 Jesus warned the disciples (the church) that " But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved". Shall be saved in this context is not a reference to being born again given that the disciples were all born-again or saved except Judas Iscariot. So what did Jesus mean in this passage?

To understand the text, we must examine the words that stand out:

• 
  
  
  • Endure - this means to remain steadfast, faithful in the face of persecution and trial that one would face as a Christian. Also to suffer tribulation for Christ and not deny him.
  • The End - this is a reference to the end of the mortal life of the believer. A man's fate is sealed after death because the dead cannot commit sin. The significance here is that after death - resurrection awaits - either resurrection to eternal life or condemnation in hellfire.
  • Shall be Saved - the disciples were already saved or born-again if you like, by the time Jesus was speaking to them. So to be saved here is not about coming to faith, but to receive eternal life and immortality in the next age.

IOW, the Lord was telling them that despite being born-again/saved; yet if any believer fails to abide/remain in Him (Christ) while they are alive, such a person will not receive eternal life. Remember that salvation (eternal life, immortality, spiritual body) is a promise; we don't have it now. But it will be given to us when the Lord returns if we abide/endured to the end of our life. So salvation can be lost if one fails to abide in Christ until death.

The problem is that the popular way of "getting saved" is praying the sinner's prayer. As soon as the prayer is prayed, the person is told they are now born again and converted to Christ. But they are being told a lie. Praying a short prayer does not cause one to be born again. It is repenting of sin, believing the Gospel and pressing into God for the transforming power of the Holy Spirit to achieve genuine conversion to Christ that brings the promise of salvation. Those who mean business with God and seek Him with all their hearts are the ones who are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

So, this explains why many who think they are saved because they responded to an altar call, prayed a prayer and then they were told they were saved, without any further evidence of a transformed heart and life. So the majority of those who fall away are those who believed a lie, and when problems and persecution comes, because their hearts are still in the world in spite of their profession of religion, they return back into the world where their hearts are.

 

[.Jeremiah.]

Funny you said, "it would require an active effort for the saved to abandon the Lord". Contrary to that position, it's quite easy to abandon the Lord! One only has to turn to sin repeatedly and reject Christ. Don't tell me it's hard to commit sin

Thanks for your great response.

You are absolutely correct.

My way of speaking doesn’t portray my complete understanding.

I will try to elaborate:
If you are like me, which I suspect, you would find the act of “sinning” to be repulsive. Although, we will surely continue to sin, while on this earth, we absolutely DO NOT desire it. It happens. We’re not perfect.
But we don’t WANT it.

We will make EVERY effort to turn away from it, and when it happens we will mourn it along with the Lord.

So, I visualize it would take a serious effort to TRY TO sin, purposely. That’s what I meant. Although I sin, I don’t purposely try to sin.

To me, there is a big difference.

Those who purposely sin, and claim that “grace” covers them, are not of us, even though they “say” they are.

I think Paul describes what I see here, pretty well in Romans 7:15-20

Thanks again for stimulating my brain.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Can you support this view with scripture?

My view is that when a person repents of their sin, believes the Gospel, seeks God with all their heart and sealed with the Holy Spirit, they are kept by the power of the Holy Spirit until they stand before God in the Judgment. "He who endures to the end will be saved". We can't endure by our own strength, we need to trust in the power of the Holy Spirit to keep us on the narrow path to salvation every day. As long as we are continually filled with the Spirit, we can be assured that we won't lose our salvation. Paul says that as we are living in the Spirit, we should walk in the Spirit. He also says that he who walks in the Spirit will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Paul is quite clear that those who do the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. In the light of the Scripture, "Not all who will call Me Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven". Walking in the Spirit is much ore than a verbal profession of Christianity. We have to show the fruit of repentance in a transformed life where we hate sin and love Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Really disappointing that none of the brothers who believe salvation is for keeps has not provided even one scripture in support.

Let's look at your reference to the warning to believers about the consequences of falling away. According to you, the warning was not meant to scare but to keep us "sober-minded and clear-headed".

Let me ask you a simple question: if there is zero chance of a saved believer falling away (depart from Christ), what then was the point of the warning? Why was it necessary? Can you warn a 1yr old baby not to climb the apple tree in the garden lest he falls off the branches? Of course, you wouldn't because such a warning is unnecessary since the toddler is barely able to walk without falling much less climbing a tree. So where there is a warning in the bible, then it is possible that the object of the warning can happen.

I, therefore, put it to you that the warning about falling away was necessary because the Lord knew that some believers will reject him and turn back to the world. In an earlier post, I cited a couple of examples of those working with Paul who turned away from the Gospel (1 Tim 1:19-20 & 2Tim 1:15)

Even Paul, as mighty in Christ as he was, said, "I keep my body in subjection, lest after having preached to others I myself end up as a castaway".

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

My understanding of salvation is that we are born again by the Holy Spirit. We are given the same quality of life God has.

So the question I live in when I read questions such as "can salvation be lost?" is "can God die?" and "what happens to us if God dies?"

Since God cannot die, those who have been given new life by God, neither can we. This is the good news.

The specifics surrounding meeting the standard all rest with God who causes these changes to occur within us, and is the only one worthy of holding his servants to account.

Saying whether salvation can be lost or not, implies that judgments over who is saved and who is not are already kicking around in your noggin. Judging whether people are saved or not, is really God's job, not yours.

I heard Joel Osteen say that about Hindus and Homosexuals. He said that because they loved God, he wasn't going to judge them.

The Scripture says that in order for our faith to be real, we have to show the fruit of repentance. What this tells me is that someone who is genuinely converted to Christ will show it in a transformed life. The pagans remarked about the early Christians, "How these Christians love one another!" It was clear to these pagans that the Christians were totally different than themselves.

So, I think we can discern who is a genuine convert to Christ and who is just an empty religious professor of Christianity, though their conduct. We will see the love, joyfulness, peacefulness, kindness, gentleness, patience, goodness, faithfulness, and self-control in their nature.

 

[d taylor]

Can you support this view with scripture?

Support that a person can not forfeit their Eternal Life.

I do not need to, because first off, there is no support from the Bible that a person can forfeit their Eternal Life.

 

[A_Thinker]

There are differing views on salvation.

Some Christians believe that once saved, one cannot lose salvation. IOW, they believe that eternal life is guaranteed. On the flip side, there are those that believe that even though we are saved, we still have the risk of losing our and eternal life if we fail to abide in Christ until the end of our mortal life.

What is your position on this topic? Kindly support your case with relevant scriptures.

Can the Lord lose you?

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I heard Joel Osteen say that about Hindus and Homosexuals. He said that because they loved God, he wasn't going to judge them.

The Scripture says that in order for our faith to be real, we have to show the fruit of repentance. What this tells me is that someone who is genuinely converted to Christ will show it in a transformed life. The pagans remarked about the early Christians, "How these Christians love one another!" It was clear to these pagans that the Christians were totally different than themselves.

So, I think we can discern who is a genuine convert to Christ and who is just an empty religious professor of Christianity, though their conduct. We will see the love, joyfulness, peacefulness, kindness, gentleness, patience, goodness, faithfulness, and self-control in their nature.

Not sure how that applies to my post since the context was people who have been born again by the Holy Spirit ..

 

[A_Thinker]

Safety is found only in the care of the Good Shepherd.
Outside of the sheepfold is peril, snares, and ravenous wolves.

It's not about "losing" our salvation. Salvation isn't an object that we possess that can be misplaced or lost. Salvation is a verb, it's what God has done and is doing--and indeed, will do in the end.

There is Christ our Ship and Anchor who keeps us in the safety of God's harbor.
And there is the torrential and stormy seas that dash us against the rocks if we jump overboard.

The warnings we have received against falling away are not intended to scare us into submission, but to keep us sober-minded and clear-headed.

-CryptoLutheran

Complementing your post ...

If we cannot gain salvation on own ... and if it took Christ's death to provide it to us, ... how shall we KEEP IT on our own ?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not sure how that applies to my post since the context was people who have been born again by the Holy Spirit ..

Joel Osteen believes that he is. He's prayed the sinner's prayer and asked Jesus into his heart. Doesn't that make him a born again Christian? Or does it??

Seriously...

There is an instruction in 2 John, and I think by Paul that whoever professes Christ and does not live according to the Gospel, believers should not have fellowship with them at all. Doesn't that require some level of judging? Therefore if I encounter a professing Christian who is having an adulterous affair, am I not permitted to make a judgment of him and not to have fellowship with him? Am I not permitted to tell him to examine himself to see if he is really in the faith, because of his sin he may be on the road to Hell?