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Again, I will not approach Scripture with a preconception that Scripture itself contradicts, which is precisely what you advocate. You may be comfortable with reading the Bible through the dark shades of anthropocentric philosophy, but I am not.
Once justified, surely glorified. NOBODY is able to snatch them from His grasp.
What He will do often is make him willing to be willing.
A refusal to consider what you just said. You just said God forces someone's will to will differently. To make someone -- to compel someone to will differently is directing their wills against their wills.
You said "make him willing".I said no such thing. Is this going to be about lying now??? Putting words into someone’s mouth to make them say contradictory things???
Bait & switch. Returning to the question, was it that you didn't mean God made people willing or no? If you mean something different, describe what's different. But I wouldn't accuse someone of lying for this. You said it. I'm surprised by your inconsistency. I've said so.If you need someone to explain what it means by God ordering a man's steps, yer in bigger trouble than I thought. If you are that slow in your understanding what more I can add won’t help your situation.
Fair enough. Poor choice of words on my part.You said "make him willing".
I didn't put the word in your mouth. You did.
Bait & switch. Returning to the question, was it that you didn't mean God made people willing or no? If you mean something different, describe what's different. But I wouldn't accuse someone of lying for this. You said it. I'm surprised by your inconsistency. I've said so.
Ever hear of God ordering one's steps as in setting up circumstances? Man has a choice in such matters. He can either turn to God, as David did, or turn away from God. Either way, God did would He could to move man. That is why David is said to be a man after God's own heart. David chose God.
Paul disagrees.Fair enough. Poor choice of words on my part.
Ever hear of God ordering one's steps as in setting up circumstances? Man has a choice in such matters. He can either turn to God, as David did, or turn away from God. Either way, God did would He could to move man. That is why David is said to be a man after God's own heart. David chose God.
Paul disagreesSo then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" Rom 9:18-19
Paul doesn't answer this by saying, "Oh, well, you resist His will." Nothing of the sort.On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? Rom 9:20-21It doesn't appear Paul is answering consistently with your view.
Out of context, you can make it read anyway you like. Knock yourself out.
Unsubscribe me Mods. I'm done.
Thank you, but I like to read Paul in context.Out of context, you can make it read anyway you like. Knock yourself out.
There are many who accept the idea of "backslidden-SAVED". Obviously I don't. If we are not "under the Spirit's control", then we are goats, and not sheep.
"SHALL we not much rather BE subject to the (discipline of) Father of spirits, and live?" Is there any way that "live", doesn't mean "eternally"?
How can one be "Christian", and refuse God's word?
But "humbling", is a choice; James and Peter both say so...
Most people refuse to humble themselves before God. That's why there are so few believers...
Publicly, the world accepts (and encourages) such refusal. If a "believer" refuses to listen to God, and continues to refuse, he/she isn't a believer.
There is no such thing as "sinningly-saved", or "backslidden-saved", or "not-following-God-SAVED"
Well, 1 Cor. 6:9, Gal. 5:21, Eph. 5:5 certainly seem to have been written as warnings to "believers."Are there any verses in Scripture that present truly saved people, becoming unsaved?
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Thank you, but I like to read Paul in context.That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. Rom 9:8
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. Rom 9:23-24
The focus of the passage is on who are God's children, God's vessels of mercy for glory. He's said who. He's said it's individual persons. He's said what these things do and do not depend on.So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Rom 9:16
Heb. 6:6 alludes to the possibility that some might fall away, and the impossibility of their ever again being renewed.
And since Ben has defined losing salvation as practicing sin, i.e. doing the same sin twice or more without repentance after each time, there is no hope for anyone.So in light of this passage (Hebrew 6:4-6 actually) what do you do with the person who has fallen away then? You don't try to restore them do you? Because it is crystal clear here that they have no hope at returning.
Again - we're back to the biggest hang-up that responsible-gracers have - that it is impossible for the fallen away to return in light of this passage.
So in light of this passage (Hebrew 6:4-6 actually) what do you do with the person who has fallen away then? You don't try to restore them do you? Because it is crystal clear here that they have no hope at returning.
Again - we're back to the biggest hang-up that responsible-gracers have - that it is impossible for the fallen away to return in light of this passage.
And since Ben has defined losing salvation as practicing sin, i.e. doing the same sin twice or more without repentance after each time, there is no hope for anyone.
We're all.....DOOMED!
I guess you have no sense of humor. I was poking fun at the conclusions some people come to. I don't have to be serious all the time.No, you all just don't know where you stand. . . . as in experiencing fatalism.
In this context Paul is talking to new converts from the nations, who were not Jewish.More lack of understanding! Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Romans 11:20-21 (NASB77)
Put that into context.
So in light of this passage (Hebrew 6:4-6 actually) what do you do with the person who has fallen away then? You don't try to restore them do you? Because it is crystal clear here that they have no hope at returning.
Again - we're back to the biggest hang-up that responsible-gracers have - that it is impossible for the fallen away to return in light of this passage.
Because apart from God, there is no other place.
Your view of "sinful men having their SINS cast into Hell, but they'll waltz into Heaven", is beyond the scope of this thread. Would it be all right if we started a new thread?
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