Can morality exist without God cont..

[Dave Ellis]

I think I was pointing that out.
I mean man, don't you get this.
The topic is Can morality exist without God?

I'm aware of that

Good or bad right or wrong can't change from day to day. If it does it's not really morality. It's just the point of view at the time.
I mean think about it.
If something was bad yesterday how can it be good today.
Morality has to be absolute. Unchanging.

And a god is required for that how?

Why is God needed. because he made us with a spiritual nature.
This relevant because our mere time on earth is a testing ground for life everlasting.

That doesn't address the question at all.

A god is required for morality to exist.... because people have a spiritual nature, and the afterlife? That's a non sequitur

 

[Dave Ellis]

You know how it gets sometimes on these forums. Sometime I even forget which thread I am even on until I get called out for being off topic.

Yeah, that happens to me too sometimes

 

[dougangel]

Generally, it has been very good. There is no other period in history in which I would rather live. Further, whilst my death is not far away, there is no other period in my life in which I would rather be living. My only regret is that I am no longer sharing it with my darling wife.

I'm sorry to hear about your wife.
If we look at it from a world perspective. Many parts of the world have been in turmoil. I think it helps your personal perspective if your in a first world country than a 3rd world country.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I'm sorry to hear about your wife.
If we look at it from a world perspective. Many parts of the world have been in turmoil. I think it helps your personal perspective if your in a first world country than a 3rd world country.

Not necessarily. Even the third world countries are better off than they were hundreds of years ago, they just aren't as well off as the first world countries.

 

[SteveB28]

What determines who's right or wrong? Majority opinion? Is "morality" a democracy? Or is there some kind of superior representative who decides?

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Yes, it's quite obviously a process of consensus. One only has to observe our history to see this.

We didn't need a 'voice from the sky' to tell us to do away with slavery, for example. We did it ourselves, in defiance of religious instruction.

 

[SteveB28]

I'm sorry to hear about your wife.
If we look at it from a world perspective. Many parts of the world have been in turmoil. I think it helps your personal perspective if your in a first world country than a 3rd world country.

Please consult some research. You will find that, despite ongoing hardships and tensions and disputes, mankind as a whole has never experienced a more beneficial existence.

 

[dcalling]

That's nonsense, even by the scriptures. It clearly says you may buy slaves from the pagan nations around you, and those slaves become your permanent property, which may be passed down through the generations

Here is a link that explain Torah and Slavery from Jewish source:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/305549/jewish/Torah-Slavery-and-the-Jews.htm

Below is a summary.

"This poor man cries out and G‑d listens." You may not have thought about this, but those may just be the most radical, subversive and revolutionary words in history. Whereas the kings and priests of old would have their subjects believe that life is a grand chain of command with yours truly on top and you scum on the bottom, this idea of personal prayer flattened all hierarchies: Everyone is equally close to the top of the ladder.

 

[dcalling]

Not necessarily. Even the third world countries are better off than they were hundreds of years ago, they just aren't as well off as the first world countries.

That depends. In the 70s or 80s Pol Pots killed about 1/4 or 1/3 of his country man, even after they happily surrendered to him, and of course the communist government of China and Russia killed many as well, so for some period within the 100 years many countries were not as well as before.

And also, even though the living conditions improved due to technology advancements, people's mind many not have been. Just check out suicide rates: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...5fa6fe-07d1-11e6-bdcb-0133da18418d_story.html

We might got richer, but we also got emptier, interesting right?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Here is a link that explain Torah and Slavery from Jewish source:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/305549/jewish/Torah-Slavery-and-the-Jews.htm

Below is a summary.

How is "the poor cry out and god listens" in any way revolutionary if god was there from the beginning and never changes? God literally can not be revolutionary, revolution requires change.

Either way, it's a ridiculous explanation.

 

[Dave Ellis]

That depends. In the 70s or 80s Pol Pots killed about 1/4 or 1/3 of his country man, even after they happily surrendered to him, and of course the communist government of China and Russia killed many as well, so for some period within the 100 years many countries were not as well as before.

And also, even though the living conditions improved due to technology advancements, people's mind many not have been. Just check out suicide rates: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...5fa6fe-07d1-11e6-bdcb-0133da18418d_story.html

We might got richer, but we also got emptier, interesting right?

You say that as if people haven't been killed by despotic rulers all throughout history.

I never claimed the world is a perfect place, however it is a better place to live than it has been at any other point in history.

 

[dcalling]

How is "the poor cry out and god listens" in any way revolutionary if god was there from the beginning and never changes? God literally can not be revolutionary, revolution requires change.

Either way, it's a ridiculous explanation.

Well, just look at how many people has forgotten that. God is always there but some people don't care, don't know or try to put word in God's mouth.

So, for people who fear God and heard the word of God, they will understand God cares all and do no harm to his servents and slaves (according to Jewish law, servants and slaves are treated the same). For others won't don't care about God or against God, they will treat other people badly.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Well, just look at how many people has forgotten that. God is always there but some people don't care, don't know or try to put word in God's mouth.

So, for people who fear God and heard the word of God, they will understand God cares all and do no harm to his servents and slaves (according to Jewish law, servants and slaves are treated the same). For others won't don't care about God or against God, they will treat other people badly.

So all that means is that servants can be beaten, sexually abused, and made to do forced labour. Because those are acceptable practices for slaves as per biblical law.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So all that means is that servants can be beaten, sexually abused, and made to do forced labour. Because those are acceptable practices for slaves as per biblical law.

Can you tell me where in biblical law where it says it is OK to sexually abuse slaves?

Also, now that I think about it, didn't you say you did not believe that capital punishment was moral. Do you realize that the majority of slaves during that time either volunteered to be slaves or were sentenced to slavery because of a horrendous crime? Let me ask you something, are prisoners not forced to perform hard labor? I see prisoners on the street picking up trash, is that immoral too? People were enslaved by the Hebrews for a specific reason. If you had to choose between slavery or death which would you choose?

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[Dave Ellis]

Can you tell me where in biblical law where it says it is OK to sexually abuse slaves?

You can sell your daughters as sex slaves as per biblical law. It even goes into what happens if she's not pleasing to her master.

Also, now that I think about it, didn't you say you did not believe that capital punishment was moral. Do you realize that the majority of slaves during that time either volunteered to be slaves or were sentenced to slavery because of a horrendous crime? Let me ask you something, are prisoners not forced to perform hard labor? I see prisoners on the street picking up trash, is that immoral too? People were enslaved by the Hebrews for a specific reason. If you had to choose between slavery or death which would you choose?

And here you go again, trying to justify slavery.

Why do you keep trying to justify slavery? It's slavery.

Slavery.

Dude, you are trying to make excuses for it. Wake up.

 

[SteveB28]

You can sell your daughters as sex slaves as per biblical law. It even goes into what happens if she's not pleasing to her master.



And here you go again, trying to justify slavery.

Why do you keep trying to justify slavery? It's slavery.

Slavery.

Dude, you are trying to make excuses for it. Wake up.

Well said. Doesn't it make you stop and wonder about a philosophy that people have to try so hard, and to perform so many mental gymnastics to justify!?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

You can sell your daughters as sex slaves as per biblical law. It even goes into what happens if she's not pleasing to her master.

Prove it! Show me the scripture.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Well said. Doesn't it make you stop and wonder about a philosophy that people have to try so hard, and to perform so many mental gymnastics to justify!?

That accusation can go both ways.

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[Dave Ellis]

Prove it! Show me the scripture.

I've already linked it before, but I'll do it again.

Exodus 21:7-11 - If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I've already linked it before, but I'll do it again.

Exodus 21:7-11 - If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

“If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

I still don't see anything about sex, where do you get that.

 

[Dave Ellis]

“If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do. 8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. 9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

I still don't see anything about sex, where do you get that.

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The master who has selected her for himself? What do you think he intends on doing with her?