Can morality exist without God cont..

[Hieronymus]

So what if someone disagreed with what others believe to be right or wrong?

Then we apply the law of the jungle.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Then we apply the law of the jungle.

Which is what?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Because when its changing. It's just relative. It's every bodies opinion. There is no good or bad it was just that generations opinion.
Morality is a man made concept if it is changing. (relative) Who is to say what it is ?

The problem with your argument is that not everyone's opinion is equal.

That also still doesn't address why a god is needed, or even relevant.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, actually contrary to popular belief even among Christians the bible does not allow involuntary slavery of foreigners even under the Old Covenant of the Hebrew theocracy except POWs. Read Deut. 25:17 and Exodus 22:21-24. And Leviticus 19:33-34 where they are commanded to treat strangers and foreigners just like fellow Hebrews. And just like their neighbor Hebrews they were allowed to sell themselves during hard times see Leviticus 25:47.

sb: Rubbish. "You may buy slaves......." And once you buy the slave from someone, he becomes your property forever.

Yes, they do BUY them, but they are selling themselves VOLUNTARILY as shown in Leviticus 25:47. This is also demonstrated in if it was not voluntarily then they would be violating Exodus 21:16. And as shown in Leviticus 25:9-10 the year of Jubilee applied to all of the inhabitants of Israel both Hebrew and stranger. So they cannot be their property forever unless it is a voluntary decision as seen in the other verses.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Yes, they do BUY them, but they are selling themselves VOLUNTARILY as shown in Leviticus 25:47. This is also demonstrated in if it was not voluntarily then they would be violating Exodus 21:16. And as shown in Leviticus 25:9-10 the year of Jubilee applied to all of the inhabitants of Israel both Hebrew and stranger. So they cannot be their property forever unless it is a voluntary decision as seen in the other verses.

That's nonsense, even by the scriptures. It clearly says you may buy slaves from the pagan nations around you, and those slaves become your permanent property, which may be passed down through the generations

 

[SteveB28]

And how has that been doing ? Not very Good. There is a lot of preventable suffering going on. The love of money. If more help was given to 3rd world countries alot of people could be prevented from dying. Man can now destroy the world which was prohecised in the New Testament. More and more unstable nations are getting Nuclear arms. Just to name a few.

Generally, it has been very good. There is no other period in history in which I would rather live. Further, whilst my death is not far away, there is no other period in my life in which I would rather be living. My only regret is that I am no longer sharing it with my darling wife.

 

[SteveB28]

Yes, they do BUY them, but they are selling themselves VOLUNTARILY as shown in Leviticus 25:47. This is also demonstrated in if it was not voluntarily then they would be violating Exodus 21:16. And as shown in Leviticus 25:9-10 the year of Jubilee applied to all of the inhabitants of Israel both Hebrew and stranger. So they cannot be their property forever unless it is a voluntary decision as seen in the other verses.

Oh for Petes sake, go back to my comment 57 where I already demolish this nonsense!

 

[SteveB28]

So what if someone disagreed with what others believe to be right or wrong?

What if they do?

What happens when people disagree with capital punishment, wars abroad, abortion, etc, etc?

We debate them don't we?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

What if they do?

What happens when people disagree with capital punishment, wars abroad, abortion, etc, etc?

We debate them don't we?

What determines who's right or wrong? Majority opinion? Is "morality" a democracy? Or is there some kind of superior representative who decides?

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[Dave Ellis]

What determines who's right or wrong? Majority opinion? Is "morality" a democracy? Or is there some kind of superior representative who decides?

Actions have consequences, those consequences are objective.

From there, you can work to make moral judgments.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Actions have consequences, those consequences are objective.

From there, you can work to make moral judgments.

Would you say that your discernment on things moral to be superior?

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[Dave Ellis]

Would you say that your discernment on things moral to be superior?

If I can back my judgment with facts and evidence, then it is superior to someone who is making a judgment that is inconsistent with the facts and evidence.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

If I can back my judgment with facts and evidence, then it is superior to someone who is making a judgment that is inconsistent with the facts and evidence.

And your judgement on capital punishment and vigilantes is superior than over 60% of the country? Is 60% of the country making judgements inconsistent with facts and evidence?

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[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
He does not endorse slavery see post 44.

de: Yes he does, it's in his book.

Just saying so doesn't make it so. Read the verses I posted about how the strangers, ie pagans in the land of Israel were to be treated well just like their fellow Hebrews. It had to be a voluntary selling of oneself, see Jeremiah 34:13-14.

↑

ed: But even if He did you have no rationally objective basis for condemning Him because you have no real universal moral standard to judge by.

de: Yes, actually I do have an objective basis to make moral judgments from.

Where is it?

↑

ed: So REAL objective morality cannot exist without the Christian God.

de: The Christian god, or any other god for that matter is irrelevant to there being an objective basis for morality. You can't possibly tie the two concepts together and have it hold up.

Yes you can, if our morality is based on His objectively existing character then it has an objective basis.

 

[Dave Ellis]

And your judgement on capital punishment and vigilantes is superior than over 60% of the country? Is 60% of the country making judgements inconsistent with facts and evidence?

I haven't expressed my opinion on either topic in this thread, how do you know what my positions are?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I haven't expressed my opinion on either topic in this thread, how do you know what my positions are?

Perhaps I had you mixed up with Steve.

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[Dave Ellis]

Just saying so doesn't make it so. Read the verses I posted about how the strangers, ie pagans in the land of Israel were to be treated well just like their fellow Hebrews. It had to be a voluntary selling of oneself, see Jeremiah 34:13-14.

So, taking prisoners of war as permanent slaves, and selling your daughters into slavery counts as voluntarily selling oneself? Beating slaves is A-OK?

Where is it?

All actions have consequences, those consequences are objective. From that basis we can examine and make moral judgments.

Yes you can, if our morality is based on His objectively existing character then it has an objective basis.

Yes, but his opinions on the matter are necessarily subjective (all opinions and judgments are subjective by definition). Therefore even if a god exists, you can't have objective morality.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Perhaps I had you mixed up with Steve.

Fair enough, no problem.

 

[dougangel]

The problem with your argument is that not everyone's opinion is equal.

That also still doesn't address why a god is needed, or even relevant.

I think I was pointing that out.
I mean man, don't you get this.
The topic is Can morality exist without God?
Good or bad right or wrong can't change from day to day. If it does it's not really morality. It's just the point of view at the time.
I mean think about it.
If something was bad yesterday how can it be good today.
Morality has to be absolute. Unchanging.

Why is God needed. because he made us with a spiritual nature.
This relevant because our mere time on earth is a testing ground for life everlasting.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Fair enough, no problem.

You know how it gets sometimes on these forums. Sometime I even forget which thread I am even on until I get called out for being off topic.