Can morality exist without God cont..

[HitchSlap]

So, how did a foreign slave become a slave in the first place?[emoji4]

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

By not being Hebrew. That's how.

 

[dcalling]

By not being Hebrew. That's how.

Here is a link that explain Torah and Slavery from Jewish source:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/305549/jewish/Torah-Slavery-and-the-Jews.htm

Very interesting read, and below is a summary.

"This poor man cries out and G‑d listens." You may not have thought about this, but those may just be the most radical, subversive and revolutionary words in history. Whereas the kings and priests of old would have their subjects believe that life is a grand chain of command with yours truly on top and you scum on the bottom, this idea of personal prayer flattened all hierarchies: Everyone is equally close to the top of the ladder.

 

[HitchSlap]

Here is a link that explain Torah and Slavery from Jewish source:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/305549/jewish/Torah-Slavery-and-the-Jews.htm

Very interesting read, and below is a summary.

Are you sure you're responding to the right poster?

 

[Ed1wolf]

And, like so many apologists, you seem to conveniently 'forget' the situation of the FOREIGNERS who were enslaved! All that you have described above pertains to HEBREW slaves only (not that their lives were a bed of roses either). Now please explain what you understand about the slaves that "you may purchase from the foreigners around you".

No, actually contrary to popular belief even among Christians the bible does not allow involuntary slavery of foreigners even under the Old Covenant of the Hebrew theocracy except POWs. Read Deut. 25:17 and Exodus 22:21-24. And Leviticus 19:33-34 where they are commanded to treat strangers and foreigners just like fellow Hebrews. And just like their neighbor Hebrews they were allowed to sell themselves during hard times see Leviticus 25:47.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Then it's off topic.

This thread deals with if morality can exist without god, and it appeared in the ethics and morality forum.

Since your god endorses slavery in his holy book, I would argue that morality exists despite your god.

He does not endorse slavery see post 44. But even if He did you have no rationally objective basis for condemning Him because you have no real universal moral standard to judge by. So REAL objective morality cannot exist without the Christian God.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Yes. In Leviticus and Exodus primarily.

Leviticus 25 makes it very clear as to the difference between the treatment for "brother" Jews and "foreigners" when it comes to slavery.....

No, you are taking that out of context. They are to be treated the same, read Leviticus 19:33-34.

sb: "If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: 40 he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. 41 Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own clan and return to the possession of his fathers. 42 For they are my servants,[e] whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. 43 You shall not rule over him ruthlessly but shall fear your God. 44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with

you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

See post 44 where I provide evidence that this buying of slaves was voluntary on the part of the one being enslaved. They were selling themselves to the Hebrews. Because the Hebrews were required to treat them as they treated themselves as shown above in Leviticus.

sb: So, here we see that the fate of a foreign slave is immediately more dire than a Hebrew. The foreign slave will be a "possession forever", whereas Hebrews will have a limited 'tenure'. Like any other property, they can be passed on to the next generation.....like a chair or table.

Even a foreign slave can leave his master if he doesn't like him and go to a sanctuary city, see Deuteronomy 23:15-16. This is even more evidence that it is voluntary.

sb: Exodus deals with the treatment of slaves and here again you only choose to focus on the 'nicer bits'.........

Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,[a] he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone.5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

This was actually to keep families together in a safe environment. Remember going out on your own was much more dangerous in ancient times than today, ie they didn't have police.

sb: 7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her[b] for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

This is actually similar to an apprenticeship for the girl and possibly get a husband if her master likes her.

sb: 20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

This was actually far more advanced than other societies at the time, they could kill a slave with impunity even the Romans could do so. The second statement about surviving a day or two is evidence that the death may not have been caused by the master striking the slave before the time of X-rays and medical technology. The slave could have had a congenital problem that may have been unrelated to the striking especially as shown below, any little injury could cause the master to lose his slave.

sb: 26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

Causing relatively minor injuries such as losing a tooth can set you free this much more humane than other societies at the time including the supposedly highly advanced Romans.

sb: You can see that there is quite a difference. Hebrews can be enslaved for a fixed period only, unless of course the master tries the nasty trick of "giving" a wife to the slave, knowing that the man may well fall in love with this woman and then be forced to make a very serious choice at the end of his enslavement. So compassionate!

And verse 7 begins "When a man sells his daughter as a slave...." Need any more be said!?

No, see my explanations above, how you are ignoring the context that the stranger is to be treated the same as the Hebrew.

 

[SteveB28]

No, actually contrary to popular belief even among Christians the bible does not allow involuntary slavery of foreigners even under the Old Covenant of the Hebrew theocracy except POWs. Read Deut. 25:17 and Exodus 22:21-24. And Leviticus 19:33-34 where they are commanded to treat strangers and foreigners just like fellow Hebrews. And just like their neighbor Hebrews they were allowed to sell themselves during hard times see Leviticus 25:47.

Rubbish. "You may buy slaves......." And once you buy the slave from someone, he becomes your property forever.

 

[Gene2memE]

And I explained to you that the hebrews treated slaves rather well.

This may have be the case for Hebrew adult males, but I'd like to see some historical evidence about this. My reading of the history of Semitic and Near East, is that in general slaves were treated rather poorly indeed, and their treatment mostly varied according to the temperament of their masters.

The Bible also contains three criteria for laws regarding slavery - one for Hebrew adult males, one for Caananites, and one for everyone else.

Many chose to become slaves in order to have their needs met.

Indentured servitude was for for Hebrew adult males. They got to go free after their their seven years was up and they'd managed to pay their debt.

What about women, children and non-Hebrews/pagans? Prisoners of war? What about Hebrew abductees? Debtors? Thieves?

Some slaves were given great responsibilities and authority.

Which is no different to other Semitic cultures of the period. For example, the Achaemenid empire used slaves as administrators for satraps, the Persians used slaves as architects, armours and horse trainers/handlers (an incredibly important position in the culture for a couple of hundred years). The Greeks and Romans used slaves as teachers, accountants, doctors and engineers.

So to say that the slavery is "just as racist and brutal as modern day slavery" is flat out incorrect because nobody was enslaved by hebrews because of their race and they did not live in the harsh conditions as you probably expect. The reason why the Hebrew treated their slaves so well was because the Hebrews claimed to have been slaves themselves while in Egypt.

There is little evidence from history that the treatment of non-Hebrew males, women and minor who were slaves was much, if at all, better than other Semitic cultures of the same period. The Hebrews took war prisoners, imprisoned debtors and thieves and even abducted foreign travellers to sell into slavery, all the way up to the 1200s, if not later. Just like the rest of the cultures around them.

There were probably cultures that treated their slaves worse - the Assyrians, Babylonians and Medians in various periods come to mind - but there were also those that treated slaves better, or even outlawed the practice all together (Achaemenid empire under Cyrus).

The ancient Jews had one set of laws for God's chosen people, and one set of laws for everyone else. That makes the different from most other cultures in the same place/time, but it doesn't mean they treated their non-Hebrew slaves any better than anyone else.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I don't know why this topic is continually recycled... Of course morality exists, even in the absence of deities. The more interesting question is how theists are able to glean morality from the god they claim to be responsible for it. In other words, if moral claims are nothing more than claims about the will of some supernatural entity, then how do we determine what is good?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Hmm, When we say the word morals we must define what is good or bad.

An unchanging outside of earth morale giver.

So why is that required for morality?

 

[Dave Ellis]

He does not endorse slavery see post 44.

Yes he does, it's in his book.

But even if He did you have no rationally objective basis for condemning Him because you have no real universal moral standard to judge by.

Yes, actually I do have an objective basis to make moral judgments from.

So REAL objective morality cannot exist without the Christian God.

The Christian god, or any other god for that matter is irrelevant to there being an objective basis for morality. You can't possibly tie the two concepts together and have it hold up.

 

[Hieronymus]

Ehm.. I think the discussion should be about OBJECTIVE morality.

....

 

[Dave Ellis]

Ehm.. I think the discussion should be about OBJECTIVE morality.

....

Define what that means.

 

[dougangel]

So why is that required for morality?

Because when its changing. It's just relative. It's every bodies opinion. There is no good or bad it was just that generations opinion.
Morality is a man made concept if it is changing. (relative) Who is to say what it is ?

 

[SteveB28]

Because when its changing. It's just relative. It's every bodies opinion. There is no good or bad it was just that generations opinion.
Morality is a man made concept if it is changing. (relative) Who is to say what it is ?

WE are to say! Just as we have always done.

 

[SteveB28]

No, actually contrary to popular belief even among Christians the bible does not allow involuntary slavery of foreigners even under the Old Covenant of the Hebrew theocracy except POWs. Read Deut. 25:17 and Exodus 22:21-24. And Leviticus 19:33-34 where they are commanded to treat strangers and foreigners just like fellow Hebrews.

Neither of those verses deals with slavery. You're grasping at straws.

And just like their neighbor Hebrews they were allowed to sell themselves during hard times see Leviticus 25:47.

That one is about a HEBREW enslaved to a FOREIGNER, not the other way round! Read your Bible!

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

WE are to say! Just as we have always done.

Who is this "we" you are talking about?

 

[SteveB28]

Who is this "we" you are talking about?

You, me, our neighbours, our community. We have always been the arbiters of what is considered to be right and wrong.

And that consideration has changed over time, sometimes very slowly, sometimes exceedingly fast. But WE are the ones who decide.

 

[dougangel]

WE are to say! Just as we have always done.

And how has that been doing ? Not very Good. There is a lot of preventable suffering going on. The love of money. If more help was given to 3rd world countries alot of people could be prevented from dying. Man can now destroy the world which was prohecised in the New Testament. More and more unstable nations are getting Nuclear arms. Just to name a few.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

You, me, our neighbours, our community. We have always been the arbiters of what is considered to be right and wrong.

And that consideration has changed over time, sometimes very slowly, sometimes exceedingly fast. But WE are the ones who decide.

So what if someone disagreed with what others believe to be right or wrong?