Can morality exist without God cont..

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Hi Jason,

To pick up our argument from the other thread:

What I was arguing is that it's completely irrelevant if someone had been enslaved solely on their race. Does it make the act of enslaving people any more moral if you permanently enslave only black people, or if you can enslave, and buy and sell slaves from all non-Hebrew people?

Even your comparison with modern day slavery doesn't work, because there were free black people in the Southern United States prior to the civil war. It was also against the law to kidnap and enslave a free man in the modern era too, you could not enslave him simply because he was black in that situation either.

My argument is that slavery in the world of the ancient Hebrews was still as racist and brutal as modern day slavery, and the bible verses I cited in the other thread back that argument up.
 
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dougangel

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Problably asking the wrong question ?
Most people have a perception of what is right or wrong.
morality
məˈralɪti/
noun
noun: morality
  1. principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.
A better question would be

Is morality relative to history, culture, your opinion or is it
absolute from an external law giver ?
 
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Dave Ellis

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Problably asking the wrong question ?
Most people have a perception of what is right or wrong.
morality
məˈralɪti/
noun
noun: morality
  1. principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.
A better question would be

Is morality relative to history, culture, your opinion or is it
absolute from an external law giver ?


I believe an external law giver is irrelevant to morality. Simply following laws makes you obedient, not moral.
 
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My argument is that slavery in the world of the ancient Hebrews was still as racist and brutal as modern day slavery, and the bible verses I cited in the other thread back that argument up.

And I explained to you that the hebrews treated slaves rather well. Many chose to become slaves in order to have their needs met. Some slaves were given great responsibilities and authority. Some slaves were doctors, lawyers, and politicians and were even considered to be the masters right hand man. If a slave was given such authority, everyone (including non slaves) had to obey. Because when the master was gone, the slave held the master's authority. So to say that the slavery is "just as racist and brutal as modern day slavery" is flat out incorrect because nobody was enslaved by hebrews because of their race and they did not live in the harsh conditions as you probably expect. The reason why the Hebrew treated their slaves so well was because the Hebrews claimed to have been slaves themselves while in Egypt.
 
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And I explained to you that the hebrews treated slaves rather well. Many chose to become slaves in order to have their needs met. Some slaves were given great responsibilities and authority. Some slaves were doctors, lawyers, and politicians and were even considered to be the masters right hand man. If a slave was given such authority, everyone (including non slaves) had to obey. Because when the master was gone, the slave held the master's authority. So to say that the slavery is "just as racist and brutal as modern day slavery" is flat out incorrect because nobody was enslaved by hebrews because of their race and they did not live in the harsh conditions as you probably expect. The reason why the Hebrew treated their slaves so well was because the Hebrews claimed to have been slaves themselves while in Egypt.

Many slaves in the southern United States received the same treatment as what you're describing (minus the Doctor, Lawyer or Politician bit). However the only slaves that would have received that treatment in the ancient world were the Hebrew males anyway, and that's not what I'm talking about.

You're not addressing the point.

Many slaves were also treated quite harshly, physical or sexual abuse, forced labour, etc.

Both types are immoral.
 
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SteveB28

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And I explained to you that the hebrews treated slaves rather well. Many chose to become slaves in order to have their needs met. Some slaves were given great responsibilities and authority. Some slaves were doctors, lawyers, and politicians and were even considered to be the masters right hand man. If a slave was given such authority, everyone (including non slaves) had to obey. Because when the master was gone, the slave held the master's authority. So to say that the slavery is "just as racist and brutal as modern day slavery" is flat out incorrect because nobody was enslaved by hebrews because of their race and they did not live in the harsh conditions as you probably expect. The reason why the Hebrew treated their slaves so well was because the Hebrews claimed to have been slaves themselves while in Egypt.

And, like so many apologists, you seem to conveniently 'forget' the situation of the FOREIGNERS who were enslaved! All that you have described above pertains to HEBREW slaves only (not that their lives were a bed of roses either). Now please explain what you understand about the slaves that "you may purchase from the foreigners around you".
 
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Hi Jason,

To pick up our argument from the other thread:

How about let's really pick up where we left off.

In my original post, I stated that "the Hebrews never enslaved anyone exclusively because of their race". Yet you responded with "Well, actually yes. Biblical slavery was based on race" because the laws regulated it was based on race.

Well, what if I said "the United States does not imprison people exclusively because of gender"? It would be like you saying "Well, actually yes. Imprisonment in the United States is based on gender because men and women are separated into different prisons". Technically, your statement is correct, but it is a straw man arguement that has nothing to do with the fact that people are not imprisoned in the United States exclusively because of their gender.

Your shifting the arguement from the criteria that enslaved people to the laws regulating slavery is a textbook example of a straw man arguement. So, you can either admit that I was right about the fact that the Hebrews never enslaved anyone exclusively because of race or provide one scripture which says the Hebrews enslaved anyone exclusively because of their race. But a will not continue this strawman arguement.


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And, like so many apologists, you seem to conveniently 'forget' the situation of the FOREIGNERS who were enslaved! All that you have described above pertains to HEBREW slaves only (not that their lives were a bed of roses either). Now please explain what you understand about the slaves that "you may purchase from the foreigners around you".
Can you provide any scriptural evidence showing that all the benefits only applied to Hebrew slaves and not both Hebrew and foreign slaves?

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dougangel

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I believe an external law giver is irrelevant to morality. Simply following laws makes you obedient, not moral.
That's debatable but a waste of time to do so.
well I think your playing words there.
But Allow me to change my statement to this:
absolute from an external morals giver.
 
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How about let's really pick up where we left off.

In my original post, I stated that "the Hebrews never enslaved anyone exclusively because of their race". Yet you responded with "Well, actually yes. Biblical slavery was based on race" because the laws regulated it was based on race.

Well, actually, you're wrong even on that point.

The biblical laws lay out the rules by which you may enslave people (take them as prisoners of war, etc), and buy and sell slaves. Race is a central part to that. You can not permanently enslave Hebrew males, however you can permanently enslave others, and the only relevant criteria is race.... specifically they are not Hebrew.

Well, what if I said "the United States does not imprison people exclusively because of gender"? It would be like you saying "Well, actually yes. Imprisonment in the United States is based on gender because men and women are separated into different prisons". Technically, your statement is correct, but it is a straw man arguement that has nothing to do with the fact that people are not imprisoned in the United States exclusively because of their gender.

That's not analogous to my argument.

Your shifting the arguement from the criteria that enslaved people to the laws regulating slavery is a textbook example of a straw man arguement. So, you can either admit that I was right about the fact that the Hebrews never enslaved anyone exclusively because of race or provide one scripture which says the Hebrews enslaved anyone exclusively because of their race. But a will not continue this strawman argument.

As I have stated repeatedly, and for some reason you seem to have trouble understanding, I am arguing your original argument is irrelevant. Whether the ancient Hebrews enslaved only black people, or people from any non-Hebrew race, it doesn't matter one bit ethically. Both are heinously immoral, and you are trying to defend it because they didn't specifically target one race, as if that matters.

To put it in a modern context, you're saying the Hebrews didn't just enslave one race. For this example, we'll say that one race is black people. You're saying that's better than the slavery in the southern US, because Americans exclusively enslaved black people. However what that means is that if the ancient Hebrew guidelines were in the southern United States, that means not only blacks would have been enslaved, but Asians, Native Americans, Middle Easterners, Pacific Islanders and everyone else that aren't Jews. I don't see how that's any better, in fact I think it's a whole lot worse.

So, I repeat again, your argument that they didn't just enslave one group of people is completely irrelevant. All that means is the slave trade oppresses more people. This is a completely irrelevant defense to why slavery in the bible is A-OK.

My argument is that the laws are indeed racially motivated, that is plainly obvious. When you have one "protected class" race, and everyone else is "lower class", that is an inherently racist system.
 
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Dave Ellis

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That's debatable but a waste of time to do so.
well I think your playing words there.
But Allow me to change my statement to this:
absolute from an external morals giver.

What does an "external moral giver" even mean?
 
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Well, actually, you're wrong even on that point.

The biblical laws lay out the rules by which you may enslave people (take them as prisoners of war, etc), and buy and sell slaves. Race is a central part to that. You can not permanently enslave Hebrew males, however you can permanently enslave others, and the only relevant criteria is race.... specifically they are not Hebrew.



That's not analogous to my argument.



As I have stated repeatedly, and for some reason you seem to have trouble understanding, I am arguing your original argument is irrelevant. Whether the ancient Hebrews enslaved only black people, or people from any non-Hebrew race, it doesn't matter one bit ethically. Both are heinously immoral, and you are trying to defend it because they didn't specifically target one race, as if that matters.

To put it in a modern context, you're saying the Hebrews didn't just enslave one race. For this example, we'll say that one race is black people. You're saying that's better than the slavery in the southern US, because Americans exclusively enslaved black people. However what that means is that if the ancient Hebrew guidelines were in the southern United States, that means not only blacks would have been enslaved, but Asians, Native Americans, Middle Easterners, Pacific Islanders and everyone else that aren't Jews. I don't see how that's any better, in fact I think it's a whole lot worse.

So, I repeat again, your argument that they didn't just enslave one group of people is completely irrelevant. All that means is the slave trade oppresses more people. This is a completely irrelevant defense to why slavery in the bible is A-OK.

My argument is that the laws are indeed racially motivated, that is plainly obvious. When you have one "protected class" race, and everyone else is "lower class", that is an inherently racist system.
Just tell me if you believe that the hebrews enslaved anyone exclusively because of their race?

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Yes, they could permanently enslave anyone who was not of the Hebrew race.
Were they enslaved Exclusive because they where not hebrew?

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The only criteria you could permanently enslave someone by was race. So, yes.
Did Hebrews go around and intentionally and exclusively single out any individuals because of their race and enslaved them solely because of their race? Yes or No?

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Did Hebrews go around and intentionally and exclusively single out any individuals because of their race and enslaved them solely because of their race? Yes or No?

Again, my view is that this line of argument is irrelevant to morality or ethics issues.

However, to put a rest to this discussion which is starting to get tedious, I'll say for the sake of argument no.

Now please, explain why that matters.
 
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Can you provide any scriptural evidence showing that all the benefits only applied to Hebrew slaves and not both Hebrew and foreign slaves?

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Yes. In Leviticus and Exodus primarily.

Leviticus 25 makes it very clear as to the difference between the treatment for "brother" Jews and "foreigners" when it comes to slavery.....

If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: 40 he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. 41 Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own clan and return to the possession of his fathers. 42 For they are my servants,[e] whom I brought out of the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold as slaves. 43 You shall not rule over him ruthlessly but shall fear your God. 44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. 45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

So, here we see that the fate of a foreign slave is immediately more dire than a Hebrew. The foreign slave will be a "possession forever", whereas Hebrews will have a limited 'tenure'. Like any other property, they can be passed on to the next generation.....like a chair or table.

Exodus deals with the treatment of slaves and here again you only choose to focus on the 'nicer bits'.........

Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. 2 When you buy a Hebrew slave,[a] he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone.5 But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ 6 then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.

7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her[b] for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.


20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.


26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

I have emboldened some of the 'juicier' parts for your consideration.

You can see that there is quite a difference. Hebrews can be enslaved for a fixed period only, unless of course the master tries the nasty trick of "giving" a wife to the slave, knowing that the man may well fall in love with this woman and then be forced to make a very serious choice at the end of his enslavement. So compassionate!

And verse 7 begins "When a man sells his daughter as a slave...." Need any more be said!?
 
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However, to put a rest to this discussion which is starting to get tedious, I'll say for the sake of argument no.
.
So when I said that people were not enslaved exclusively because of their race or nationality and you originally responded with "Well, actually yes. Slavery was based on race." What you really meant was "Well...actually yes, the Hebrews never enslaved anyone exclusively because of their race or nationality. However, the laws regulating slavery was based on race?


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