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Featured Islam Can Islam be distinguished from Arab I

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by mindlight, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    But the Qur'an only confirms the Gospel received by Jesus and the Torah received by Moses.

    So what you quoted, for instance, is not the Gospel. And the crucifixion of Jesus is not part of the Gospel.
     
  2. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Nonsense. The different schools make no difference whatsoever in a discussion like this. I follow no particular school and no particular person blindly either so you have to give up hoping if someone I trust says something ridiculous, I'll accept it and admit 'Islam is ridiculous'.
     
  3. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    lol.. there are no Muslims who don't follow fiqh and fiqh comes from the various schools.

    The scholars which are respected may not be blindly followed, but it helps to give a starting point on ahadith and discussion UNLESS your planning on dismissing any ahadith or point of fiqh that you find problematic in the moment regardless of whether it's widely accepted or not.

    which once again is disingenuous and deceptive. You either want to discuss your beliefs with those who are making the attempt to engage with you, or your entire goal is to put lipstick on Islam to make it seem like something it's not.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  4. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    And? Did you notice I said 'I follow no particular school' ? Did you notice I didn't say 'I don't follow fiqh'?
     
  5. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Oh I've noticed, I just wanted others to notice something as well...

    So, you just refuse. I'm done wasting time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  6. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Would think an ex-Muslim could do better.

    Refuse what?
     
  7. spirito

    spirito New Member

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    Your evidence is the Quran? What? Who cares if there are people who worshiped Mary? There are people even nowadays that worship Mary.

    I am starting to lose patience with you because you are lying and you know you are. You are either lying to me or you are lying to yourself. There is no other explanation.

    In the chapter 5 of the Quran the trinity is discussed.

    They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

    (Quran 5:73)

    Clearly it's referring to the trinity. And in that same chapter it says:

    And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

    Quran 5:116

    It is clearly and obviously talking about the trinity, and it clearly thinks that the trinity is formed by Mary, Jesus and God.

    The Quran is wrong and it is so because those who wrote it had a vague idea of Christianity. Stop lying to yourself and wasting my time. You can clearly see with your own eyes how it is, you either accept it or you can keep deluding yourself.


    Wow, so you started by saying that they didn't burn the other Qurans but only some verses, then I prove you wrong and what do you do? Instead of admitting your mistake and changing your mind, you make up an excuse based on nothing besides your own imagination and keep going with it. You really don't give a damn about truth, you are more than ready to bend truth to fit your own convictions.

    They burned all the copies of the Quran besides the one compiled and approved by the State, as a perfect man-made religion made to control the people. They didn't burn some copies made by some amateurs like you tried to invent (based on nothing but your fantasies again), they burned everything besides the approved one.

    It's not my interest to debate with you either, given that you couldn't care less about the truth and that you make up stuff as if it were ignorant.

    You are the one who accused me of lying. I asked you to show me what my lies were. And what did you do? You couldn't show me any lie I said and instead you went on to cover your ignorance about islam with a bunch of lies you made up in the moment. Whatever justifies your belief I guess eh?

    I hope the guy who said that he preferred muslims to atheists changed his mind after this exchange. We can clearly see that this muslim here couldn't care less about the truth and that he wouldn't think twice to burn everything that goes against his Quran, Bibles included. I mean, he's ok with his dictator burning all the copies of his holy book, even the ones containing entire chapters which are missing in the current one, why would he hesitate to burn down all the other "false" books. I am not surprised. No wonder the islamic world is a place no one would like to live in.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  8. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    The Qur'an never distinguishes the Gospel and Torah in use by Christians at the time with some mythical pure versions of these which have never existed. The evidence trail is very clear we have full versions of the bible from a variety of Christian traditions predating Muhammad. Later Muslims made up the existence of these other texts when they realised with some horror that Muhammad was giving his authority to texts that completely contradicted him.
     
  9. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Yes. You make a claim about the Qur'an, I show you the Qur'an again so you can think it through.

    Exactly. That's what the Qur'an criticises. One interesting thing is that regardless of what the Qur'an would mention it's still correct. Whether the Christians did worship Jesus, Father and holy Spirit or Jesus, Mary and Father, the Qur'an would still be right.
    That's when you're starting to lose an argument.
    That's still just three things mentioned, not the trinity.

    Because...... You want it to? Try reading without prejudice and be honest to yourself.
    Why, did you have someone in mind who would have known better?
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  10. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    What do you mean by fiqh? Our Muslim friend accepts hadiths that endorse hating black devil dogs and ardent antisemitism not to mention wife beating and a 90 foot tall Adam and blowing the devil out of your nose 3 times every morning. ( from the absurd hadiths thread). If these are regarded as authoritative ahadith then not sure it matters which school says what as they are all just different shades of crazy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  11. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    The Qur'an makes clear the Gospel is the revelation that was sent to Jesus. The gospel as a whole was never written down.

    Regarding the Torah it says 'we gave Musa the book'.
     
  12. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    The gospel was written down by 4 people who were direct witnesses to Jesus or writing up the testimony of direct first hand witnesses. The direct witness to what Jesus actually revealed contradicts what Muhammad said. God would not be so careless as to lose the true text if it was that important. What is the point of a prophet if his revelation is never revealed?
     
  13. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    You are probably referring to the Gospels. But the Gospel mentioned in the Qur'an does not refer to those.
     
  14. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You probably have a point there.. lol
     
  15. mindlight

    mindlight See in the dark Supporter

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    You are dodging the point as Muhammad never differentiated between the widely accepted accounts of Christ's life ( the Gospels,) and some mythical pure text for which there is no evidence at all.

    If God is supposed to have guarded the inspiration of the Qur'an then why was He unable the guard the inspiration of the previous revelation. The only real explanation is that Muhammad was plain ignorant of what the bible actually said and Muslim scholars have being doing their best to rationalise the differences between what he said and the bible said ever since.

    The Muslim attempt to force their idea of a series of prophets with Muhammad as the last onto the straightforward understanding of the biblical word paraclete is a perfect example of this. Quite simply the bibles usage does not mean Messenger in the way they want it to and never has.
     
  16. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    This doesn't have to be a text. We know it never was one. It is the revelation given to Jesus.
    3:48
    "And He (Allah) will teach him (Jesus) the book and the wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel"
    5:46 "And We sent in their foot steps, Jesus, son of Mary, confirming what had come before him from the Torah, and We gave him the Gospel in which was guidance and light, and confirming what has come before him from the Torah, guidance, and an admonition for the pious."
    5:110 "(Remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): “O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My Favor to you and to your mother when I strengthened you with spirit of the holy (Gabriel), you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when I taught you the book and the wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you made from clay like the figure of a bird by My permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My permission, you healed the born-blind, and the lepers by My permission, when you raised the dead by My permission, when I restrained children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear proofs; and those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear magic.”"
     
  17. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I'm sorry, I have to point out the obvious here: if the injil was never a written book, then how on earth do Christians qualify as People of the Book, as the Islamic religion calls us?
     
  18. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    There's many ways of looking at it. First of all, when I say it was never written I mean there has been no such proper book that would have been spread among the people (as far as history knows). But there's no doubt that there used to be more information about the revelation to Jesus. After all, Allah in the Qur'an urged the Christians as well as the Jews to follow their book. If there was literally nothing to follow, He wouldn't have said that. It is agreed that something of the Gospel as well as of the Torah is left in the current books - but so little! And from that little so little can anyone be certain of.

    Had the people after the 'crucifixion' of Jesus made a sincere effort to preserve the message it would still have been unlikely they would have succeeded if they had not prepared the text while Jesus was still with them or without having some other way of making sure they get it right.

    Another thing is that the book doesn't just refer to a physical copy of a book. The Qur'an says Allah gave 'the book' to both Jesus and Moses. Doesn't mean He gave them a literal copy of a book. It refers to the revelation.
     
  19. Yytz6

    Yytz6 Member

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    Religion is a kind of an ideology - it can't really be Arabian, Asian or European as far as I can see.
     
  20. Ignatius the Kiwi

    Ignatius the Kiwi Newbie

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    Explain this. How did they make an insincere effort to preserve the message of Christ. I've read the New Testmanet. I've read the second century Church fathers. They seem pretty sincere to me.
     
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