Islam Can Islam be distinguished from Arabs

[dzheremi]

Indeed. I rarely write about history. You like to bring your historical povs into all discussions. But you never say this is what these people think because... You just say fact a and b and c happened. The end. It's all black and white for you.

That is how most histories are. Particularly ancient ones are usually just a recounting of what happened in which years according to whoever's reckoning of time. To the extent that you can glean any other information from them, you can usually figure out the historian's attitude towards the subject/people, but not generally his reasons for thinking that (that would be better found in some kind of apologetic). For instance, the 8th-century Chronicle of Zuqnin (Amir Harrak 1999 translation) states about the coming of your religion:

The year 932: The Arabs conquered the land of Palestine and the great river Euphrates. The Romans fled over to the east of the Euphrates and the Arabs held sway over them. The first king was a man among them named Muhammad, whom they also called Prophet because he turned away from cults of all kinds and taught them that there was only one God, creator of the universe. He also instituted laws for them because they were very much entangled in the worship of demons and cult of idols, mainly the cult of trees. Because Muhammad showed them that God was one, because they vanquished the Romans in war through his direction, and because he instituted laws for them according to their desire, they called him Prophet and Messenger of God.
This nation is very lascivious and sensual. Every law instituted for them, whether instituted by Muhammad or any other God-fearing person, is despised and dismissed if it is not instituted according to their sensual pleasure. But a law which fulfills their wishes and desires, even if it is instituted by a nobody among them, they accept, saying: "This has been instituted by a Prophet and Messenger of God. Moreover, it was commanded to him in this manner by God!"
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The anonymous author if the Chronicle seems to have had at best an ambivalent attitude towards Muhammad (calling him a "God-fearing man", but also saying that he instituted laws for them according to their desires), but a more negative attitude towards the Arabs as a whole ("This nation is very lascivious and sensual"). It is clear that he thinks that they are a deceived people (unable or unwilling to recognize the difference between their desires and the will of God), but he does not really give concrete examples that show them to be so (there's no "Such-and-such Arab guy told me this about them", so it's not a self-report), but rather just a caricature of what he assumes to be the motivation behind their words. Probably since the author is some ~140 years after the death of Muhammad, he has heard the praise of Muhammad from the Arab invaders and absorbed some of that to be a true reflection of the man's character, but has contrasted that with the behavior of the Muslim Arabs in his area (Mesopotamia) and found them to be in contrast. But he doesn't come out and say that. I can infer it, but that's me doing so because you are misunderstanding why I present things this way.

So why should I go beyond what can be found in historical sources? So that you will not think "it's all black and white" for me? You think that anyway, and who are you, and why should I care? It's precisely because my view is based on these kinds of historical sources that it doesn't matter what you or anyone else has to say, since you openly admit that your own view is something else (or if you do have historical evidence for what you say, you don't like to present it). Take it up with a chronicler of life in Mespotamia for Christians in century after the initial conquest of that territory. I trust him a lot more than I would trust any later apologist for Muhammad's religion.

 

[mindlight]

It's said that "whoever has a glass house shouldn't stone others"
From fist day of Islam. There were great non-arabic companion. Belal the African who was assigned to call for prayer although his pronouncinion of Arabic was not perfect. Sohib the Roman was there also. Salman the Persian was there as well.
Tell me about the disciples who were all Jews even Jesus said I'm for the lost Israeli sheep only.

You should read the history of Islam as well. Turks lead the Islam for more than 6 centuries.
If you just give some time for reading, you'll find 3 out of the best Ahadeeth (narrations from Prophet Muhammed ) were non Arabs albukhary, Muslim, and eltermezy. Many others schoolers were non Arabs.
From first days of Islam Allah in Quran and Prophet in Hadeeth, warned Muslim to treat people based on race or color.

Your assumptions are totally wrong.

Arab domination/influence is a pretty consistent theme with the exception of the Ottoman years, while Jewish dominance of the church only lasted for the first generation before being displaced by Greek speakers then Latin speakers and then a mix of French Spanish English and German. Christianity's global appeal despite its Jewish roots testifies to its genuine resonance with people regardless of culture and language and race. Even the Turks read the Quran in Arabic and made sure to conquer the Hejaz including Makkah and Madinah. Fugitives from the Byzantine and Sassine empires wars aside there were slaves from multiple cultures who became Muslims and were then turned into Arabs in those early years. Multi racial means some kind of respect for the diverse cultures of Gods worlds. Muslims are trying to duplicate a 7th century Arab culture regardless of their background or location.

 

[Limo]

Arab domination/influence is a pretty consistent theme with the exception of the Ottoman years, while Jewish dominance of the church only lasted for the first generation before being displaced by Greek speakers then Latin speakers and then a mix of French Spanish English and German. Christianity's global appeal despite its Jewish roots testifies to its genuine resonance with people regardless of culture and language and race. Even the Turks read the Quran in Arabic and made sure to conquer the Hejaz including Makkah and Madinah. Fugitives from the Byzantine and Sassine empires wars aside there were slaves from multiple cultures who became Muslims and were then turned into Arabs in those early years. Multi racial means some kind of respect for the diverse cultures of Gods worlds. Muslims are trying to duplicate a 7th century Arab culture regardless of their background or location.

Still repeating same sterytyping regardless of actualt and historical facts.
I'll till one point, just one.
We never ever in history in any place in the world have seprate Mosques for different races or color.
But look at you, churches for Blacks and churches for whites. We never knew churches for Locals and churches for forigners. Right?

 

[mindlight]

Still repeating same sterytyping regardless of actualt and historical facts.
I'll till one point, just one.
We never ever in history in any place in the world have seprate Mosques for different races or color.
But look at you, churches for Blacks and churches for whites. We never knew churches for Locals and churches for forigners. Right?

No racism in Islam - right!

Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 9, Book 89, Number 256:

Narated By Anas bin Malik : Allah’s Apostle said, “You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin.”

Sahih Muslim book 41, hadith 6981:

Ibn ‘Umar reported the messenger of Allah as saying: “You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: “Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him!

 

[dzheremi]

But Mindlight, you're forgetting the context that makes saying that Ethiopians have heads that look like raisins totally a not racist thing to say!

Oh, it's around here somewhere...I'm sure it will show up with very sophisticated (in the sense of 'sophistry') arguments about the Arabic language, and maybe how that saying was mistranslated, or can really mean this other thing that is not so incredibly racist, etc. etc.

The lengths to which Muslims will go to defend their supposed prophet who they totally do not deify (no...no...why would anyone ever think that?) from what their own most reliable sources say that he said and did is quite astounding. Why not just own Muhammad's racism? Y'know, like how Muhammad owned and traded black people? He's either the perfect example for all mankind or he isn't.

How very strange.

 

[Yytz6]

No racism in Islam - right!

Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 9, Book 89, Number 256:

Narated By Anas bin Malik : Allah’s Apostle said, “You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin.”

Sahih Muslim book 41, hadith 6981:

Ibn ‘Umar reported the messenger of Allah as saying: “You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: “Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him!

You just can't get over the first hadith. It's so plain obviously not racist. It preaches tolerance. Today it might be a rather mediocre thing to say in a way as in the west this type of tolerance has become a rule, but in those days it was often an exception. You're just trying to twist some wise words into something bad because you don't like who said it.

I think we talked about the hadith that speaks about killing the Jews already. Judaism isn't a race though.

 

[Yytz6]

But Mindlight, you're forgetting the context that makes saying that Ethiopians have heads that look like raisins totally a not racist thing to say!

Oh, it's around here somewhere...I'm sure it will show up with very sophisticated (in the sense of 'sophistry') arguments about the Arabic language, and maybe how that saying was mistranslated, or can really mean this other thing that is not so incredibly racist, etc. etc.

The lengths to which Muslims will go to defend their supposed prophet who they totally do not deify (no...no...why would anyone ever think that?) from what their own most reliable sources say that he said and did is quite astounding. Why not just own Muhammad's racism? Y'know, like how Muhammad owned and traded black people? He's either the perfect example for all mankind or he isn't.

How very strange.

Traded black people?

 

[dzheremi]

Yes. As I've already pointed out, it is in Sahih Muslim, where Muhammad trades two black slaves for another slave who wanted to migrate with the Muslims, but couldn't while a slave:

Jabir (Allah be pleased with him) reported:

There came a slave and pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle on migration; he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man)

- - -

So apparently this one guy is worth two black people. Hmm.

 

[Limo]

No racism in Islam - right!

Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 9, Book 89, Number 256:

Narated By Anas bin Malik : Allah’s Apostle said, “You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is an Ethiopian (black) slave whose head looks like a raisin.”

Sahih Muslim book 41, hadith 6981:

Ibn ‘Umar reported the messenger of Allah as saying: “You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: “Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me); kill him!

As usual, instead of answering church separation based on color and race you just opened debate book then copy/past.
Just think a little about the Hadeeth you pasted.
It's killing the racisms. Prophet Orders companion to obey their Chief regardless of his color and race. Arabs before Islam wouldn't ever even sit with blacks.
To kill this racisms, Prophet ordered companion to abide to whoever lead them
Also, there are black Arabs but not African. So Prophet emphsizes again that he doesn't mean Arabs but Africans who has raisen head.
O
Oneday, Prophet heard a companion calls another one "son of black mother", Prophet angerly Said " you're believe is not perfect, your hear still have before Islam values"