can christians NOT be nudists

[Darkhorse]

Yup, I wasn't really talking about how "modest" clothing was. "Modest" clothing varies wildly from culture to culture. A loin cloth can be considered modest if that's the cultural norm. But... and correct me if I'm wrong, this is not my area of study... isn't total nudity pretty rare, even in tropical climates?

Hehe, are you saying human history would have been vastly improved by Columbus not forcing the native people to wear clothes? Maybe... that just seems like a small thing compared to the general genocide and theft of property that followed his landing.

I'm... not sure what point you're trying to make about Jesus being naked four times. He was human, He had a body, I'm sure He was naked every time He went to the bathroom or bathed... same as most of us. And, while I assume He was naked at the moment of the Resurrection, He wasn't seen until He was clothed. Also, if clothing=righteousness, that seems a little problematic for your point, doesn't it?

Funny, this is not the kind of conversation I thought I'd be having when I signed up for these forums =)

I agree - "modesty" is totally cultural, and that is shown by your loincloth example. Some tribes wear nothing but a decorative string around the waist. As far as I know, cultures practicing total nudity are rare, which is why I mentioned the first natives Columbus encountered.

I also wasn't bemoaning Columbus clothing the natives. That pales in comparison to the un-Christian treatments he - and especially later explorers - imposed on the New-World inhabitants. The worst part is the Europeans representing Christianity while acting at least as savage as the "savages".

I made the point about Jesus being nude at those critical junctures because you made the point about him wearing clothes. Both were important in the total context of his life.

I mentioned him possibly being "clothed in righteousness" because that phrase is in the Bible, and no explanation is given for how he could leave the grave wrappings behind, yet be clothed later. The saved will also be "clothed in righteousness", but that doesn't imply that clothing is necessary to be righteous. Rather, it emphasizes that the righteousness of Jesus is necessary for our salvation, since our own "righteousness" falls far short of being good enough.

Not all Christians fit into the same mold.

 

[SillyFool]

I hope clothing vs nudity isn't the linchpin of salvation. If it is, I've been seriously misfocused most of my life.

Not all Christians fit into the same mold.

Thank God, right? =)

 

[faroukfarouk]

There are degrees of nudity, of course. Up here in Canada a court has legalized toplessness.

 

[Darkhorse]

Down here in the U. S. A. toplessness is legal in 33 states, as long as the lady is not "creating a public disturbance" or "committing a lewd act".

Just for perspective, I have lived in California and Texas (2 of the 33 states) for a total of 50 years, and have never seen a topless woman in public, other than at a nude beach.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I would in any case make a distinction between, say, a woman tanning her chest without a top (not that I advocate it), and on the other hand exposure 'down there' by men or women.

I guess my point is that there are degrees of nudity.

 

[Darkhorse]

I would in any case make a distinction between, say, a woman tanning her chest without a top (not that I advocate it), and on the other hand exposure 'down there' by men or women.

I guess my point is that there are degrees of nudity.

Many cultures don't consider topless women to be nude, especially for nursing babies, but expect clothes over their genitals. I've never been to Europe, but I've heard that many of their beaches follow this standard.

I have also been to nude beaches where some women will cover their breasts, but not their genitals. I think it's because they don't want their breasts bouncing around when they're active.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Many cultures don't consider topless women to be nude, especially for nursing babies, but expect clothes over their genitals. I've never been to Europe, but I've heard that many of their beaches follow this standard.

I have also been to nude beaches where some women will cover their breasts, but not their genitals. I think it's because they don't want their breasts bouncing around when they're active.

It's not unusual for there to be topless tanning on European beaches.

 

[FreeInChrist88]

I wonder... is nudity really the more "natural" state of humanity? I mean, obviously we're born naked, but there seems to be a drive in every culture that I've ever heard of to adopt some kind of covering as the socially acceptable norm.

The Risen and Glorified Christ wore clothes, and even angels are depicted as wearing clothes! It seems funny to think of angels feeling shame, and if ever there was a human who had no reason to be ashamed, it is the Risen Christ... but He wore clothes. Indeed, John's Revelation has Christ's clothing shine as if it was glorified right along with Him, or was even part of His glory.

Think about the role of clothing throughout human history and across countless civilizations: Clothing signifies everything from social status to tribal affiliation to personal identity. I would argue that I am more "who I really am" when I'm wearing clothing I feel comfortable in than when I'm naked. Nudity emphasizes our sameness and animalness... I would tentatively suggest that clothing brings out our identity and the distinctiveness of our existence as moral beings. (Not that being naked is immoral. But there's something complex and fascinating going on at the intersection of morality and sexuality and our identity.)

FWIW I'm pretty sure C.S.Lewis has an article that addresses this much more eloquently than I can. Anyone remember where that might be? Or care to summarize?

Those are interesting thoughts. Your "who I really am" statement in the last paragraph especially caught my attention. For me, the opposite is true. Nudity helps me better see who I really am. And believe it or not, helps me feel more connected to God, to others and to my own humanness.

We're all different and unique in so many ways. Some of us feel positively "naked" when we are not wearing clothes. I guess that has to do with not feeling protected? Others of us for some reason just love being nude and if it were practical, we would chose to be nude all the time.

For me, the OPs statement "can Christians NOT be nudists" makes perfect sense.

 

[peternat]

Nudity in this world isn't the problem that men have. It is not the outside, but the inside.

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Thus deal with the problem on the inside, our desires

As believers in the Lord Jesus, we have His Spirit, the Holy Spirit as Helper and Comforter; He helps us to be more than conquerors, also over sin

Matt 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Let Jesus cleanse you on the inside and let Him help you to be cleansed it continually

The outside, nudity isn't sin

For more info, please have a look at my blog and comment
[URL="https://naturistchristian.wordpress.com/"]https://naturistchristian.wordpress.com/[/URL]

Have a naturist day
Enjoy
Peter

 

[WindStaff]

can christians NOT be nudists

I doubt Paul would have expounded so heavily on modesty if we were called to be nude.

One simply cannot get off on the notion that we live in a new society and that it validates being nude.
That ultimately means that one is saying ancient Rome and Greece had actually cared about modesty, which they did not, and was the reason for Paul's teachings.

 

[Darkhorse]

I doubt Paul would have expounded so heavily on modesty if we were called to be nude.

One simply cannot get off on the notion that we live in a new society and that it validates being nude.
That ultimately means that one is saying ancient Rome and Greece had actually cared about modesty, which they did not, and was the reason for Paul's teachings.

You're defining "modesty" as covering skin.

Paul's writings emphasized "not flaunting your wealth" much more than covering skin.

 

[WindStaff]

You're defining "modesty" as covering skin.

Paul's writings emphasized "not flaunting your wealth" much more than covering skin.

Paul talks about clothing right down to one's hair. It is why for the past 2000 years, EVERY SINGLE discipleship since the Apostles has practised modesty in every sense.

From the Fall to now, modesty has been expected of God's children.

It's likely that Paul speaks heavily on jewelry for it's rank vanity altogether. You ask others to stop wearing them, and if they obey, will rather sell them and care more about food in their belly then looking like what the ancient Jews would outright compare to idolatresses.

Sure, in the world now, jewelry and whatnot are subtle things. You don't stand out wearing jewelry like you did then. Everybody has jewelry.
And that's fine. Guess what it isn't though.. nudity. And it will remain that way, so it is indeed a sin.

 

[Darkhorse]

It's likely that Paul speaks heavily on jewelry for it's rank vanity altogether.

Sure, in the world now, jewelry and whatnot are subtle things. You don't stand out wearing jewelry like you did then. Everybody has jewelry. And that's fine. Guess what it isn't though.. nudity. And it will remain that way, so it is indeed a sin.

Here is the much-quoted 1 Timothy 2:8-10:

8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

"Elaborate hairstyles", then and now, are expensive. My wife had her hair braided for our wedding in 1990, and the standard charge then was $50. Everyone can afford costume jewelry, gold jewelry has always been expensive. Small gold chains run $1200 - $1500 now, and not everyone can afford those.

Know what's not in the Bible anywhere?

Commandments like "Thou shalt not be naked", or anything even remotely similar.

 

[WindStaff]

Here is the much-quoted 1 Timothy 2:8-10:

8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

"Elaborate hairstyles", then and now, are expensive. My wife had her hair braided for our wedding in 1990, and the standard charge then was $50. Everyone can afford costume jewelry, gold jewelry has always been expensive. Small gold chains run $1200 - $1500 now, and not everyone can afford those.

Know what's not in the Bible anywhere?

Commandments like "Thou shalt not be naked", or anything even remotely similar.

 

[Darkhorse]

Of course, we could squabble about what "modestly", "decency", and "propriety" mean, as has been done on the Breastfeeding thread for over 2000 posts, but let's get explicit:

These behaviors are explicitly forbidden in Old and New Testaments:

(Ten Commandments)

No other gods

Idolatry

Misusing God's Name

Dishonoring the Sabbath

Dishonoring parents

Murder

Adultery

Theft

False testimony

Coveting


Of course, there are many others, including the eating or drinking of blood, incest, bestiality, and homosexual behavior.


One would think that, if nudity were such an offense to God, or harmful to humanity, then He would have been very specific about forbidding it.

But He isn't, and He doesn't.

What does He do? He sends every one of His new people into the world stark naked.

Do you think, just maybe, He's trying to remind us of something and give us a clue?

 

[WindStaff]

Of course, we could squabble about what "modestly", "decency", and "propriety" mean, as has been done on the Breastfeeding thread for over 2000 posts, but let's get explicit:

These behaviors are explicitly forbidden in Old and New Testaments:

(Ten Commandments)

No other gods

Idolatry

Misusing God's Name

Dishonoring the Sabbath

Dishonoring parents

Murder

Adultery

Theft

False testimony

Coveting


Of course, there are many others, including the eating or drinking of blood, incest, bestiality, and homosexual behavior.


One would think that, if nudity were such an offense to God, or harmful to humanity, then He would have been very specific about forbidding it.

But He isn't, and He doesn't.

What does He do? He sends every one of His new people into the world stark naked.

Do you think, just maybe, He's trying to remind us of something and give us a clue?

It isn't something that needs to be mentioned, it was common sense and completely unheard of to do things like dress immodestly, commit abortion, divorce, and basically every single thing women do today.
The world has allowed them to divorce and to abort, to dress immodestly, and now we are on the subject of nudity.

Do you understand how dominoes work if you stack them beside each other? Flick the last one back, and the rest follow.

What you ultimately support is a complete annhilation of these virtues in a world heading not toward a space odessey, but an apocalypse.

Good job.
Just stick to Paul's teachings and stop laboring under delusions.

 

[JustMeSee]

Christianity comes in many flavors. Followers of Christ's messages come in many shapes and sizes. Many related beliefs.

Nudism and Christianity need not be opposing forces.

 

[Darkhorse]

It isn't something that needs to be mentioned, it was common sense and completely unheard of to do things like dress immodestly, commit abortion, divorce, and basically every single thing women do today.
The world has allowed them to divorce and to abort, to dress immodestly, and now we are on the subject of nudity.

Do you understand how dominoes work if you stack them beside each other? Flick the last one back, and the rest follow.

What you ultimately support is a complete annhilation of these virtues in a world heading not toward a space odessey, but an apocalypse.

Women? What about men? Do they get off the hook?


As a kid, I loved to stack dominos up and knock them over. A low-tech chain reaction!

I also grew up around steep hills in California, and I know what "slippery slope" really means!


I agree with you regarding annihilation of virtues. Our world is hurtling towards apocalypse at an ever-increasing rate, and no amount of education, technology, or humanistic "peace" will save it.

In order to truly follow God, it's necessary to understand what is really sin and what simply goes against social custom. This was why Jesus had so many confrontations with the Pharisees.

Abortion is covered under murder; the Bible is very clearly opposed to killing the innocent.

Divorce was a concession to hard-heartedness in the Old Testament, but Jesus clearly condemned it in the New.


On the other hand, burdening people with unnecessary legalism turns Christianity into a religion, rather than a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It also diverts people's attention away from things that are truly important to social customs, which are less important than God's commandments.

Of course it was customary for people to wear clothes in Bible times, but it was also customary to be partially or completely nude at times that would be shocking in modern society, like bathing, or swimming, or nursing a baby (here we go again), or relieving yourself (there wasn't a McDonalds every 10 minutes along the road).

How do I know this? Partly because my mom lived a similar life about 100 years ago.

When my mom was young, she wasn't allowed to wear pants, because it was considered indecent for ladies to wear pants.

But when she went swimming, she wore nothing, because country people swam nude. True, they were usually with friends of the same sex, or among family members, but not always. Because it was expected, no one thought anything about it.

When they bathed, it was in the kitchen, standing in a washtub next to the stove, in full view of anyone who happened to be there. Hey, they had hot water! Pretty classy...

They didn't have a bathroom, but they had an outhouse. When they weren't near the outhouse, well...let's just say that my mom was never inconvenienced by the lack of a restroom. That's why ladies wore dresses instead of pants.

As a child, I was raised by Christian parents who condemned sin but considered nudity a normal part of life, as when changing clothes, or using the bathroom, or...nursing a baby.

My wife and I have raised our kids with similar values, and they have experienced nudity with others many times in non-sexual situations. As unmarried adults, they are still virgins and do not seek out pornography.

Many times we humans make a good thing (like nudity) bad by how we mishandle it.

 

[CryOfALion]

A penis with a human face and wearing a hoodie coming into my mind would be wrong at this point of the OP post wouldn't it.

*flatlined*

 

[CryOfALion]

Some humans are too goofy and immature to handle nudity 100% of the time. I am probably one of them. But, even though the body in and of itself isn't sinful, it can be a tremendous tempter. A lot of people around the world are "functional nudists," where the groin is the only thing covered, maybe the female chest sometimes. This is more about protection, aerodynamics, drag, etc - science/function. But, it is also because at the very least male and female reproductive parts are the ultimate tempters (some cultures' perspective on what the "fruit" was.)

It may work culturally for mature adults of legal age to come together and be nude as a bonding experience as opposed to Hedonism II. You would really have to know yourself, and others I would say. Another problem I would say is always possible is that one of the group is literally "too sexy to resist" (for whomever and whatever that means,) and a thing as subtle as attention diversion can cause problems. But, that is me going off of Western culture as it is now.