Can Christians lose there salvation?

[volleyball4God_08]

I heard that if you curse God, you can not go to heaven. but thats just what I heard

 

[CCWoody]

If they choose to believe you-Calvinists, over Jesus and Paul (see Post #1526), then that is not my concern; it is between themselves and Jesus.

I'm sure that you would like to continue in your belief that it is either Calvinism or Jesus & Paul. Unfortunately for you, the more you post, the more people are made aware that you do not teach the truths of the Bible. And this is why they continually realize that we are the ones who are telling the truth. I've actually watched several people relate the same experience of discovering the truth while watching us engage people like you.

The most glaringly obvious example of this is your continual need to actually change the words of the Bible when you present your verses.

So, in the interest of continually demonstrating that we Calvinists are the only ones who seem to care about earnestly contending for the faith and our Lord we continue to slog with you and let you continue to post your rather unique Bible verses and interpretations.

Whether you want to believe it or not, you are the best thing for Calvinism.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[CCWoody]

(This post below is a double of 1539 however, I have spaced it once more for clarity to see who is speaking)

Sunbeam: I believe we are saved by our walk.....(of faith)

Here is a clue, Sunbeam,.... You can add whatever words after the phrase "we are saved by OUR WALK" and the only thing you are doing is adding a prepositional phrase which modifies YOUR WALK. So, by a simple examination of the grammar which any decent high schooler would know, the faith is not faith in God, but

in your walk.​

So, your belief is not in God, but

in your walk.​

And it was for this reason that I asked why you don't trust the Lord?

Because, if you really did trust the Lord, your faith would be in the Lord and your confidence and trust would be in the Lord, instead of YOUR WALK.

Of course, a salvation that is by your walk isn't even a salvation by grace at all. So, you can use all the cutsie words and phrases you want to describe exactly how you are saved by grace. The only problem is that if YOU don't walk, then you aren't and won't be saved.

So, this wonderful grace which you seem to think is so worthy of God is so worthless that it can't save a single soul without that soul actually doing the walk. And, considering that I cherish the Psalms so much, I will heed this advice concerning any grace which is worthless:

• I will set no worthless thing before my eyes:....
  ( Psa 101:3 GB )

So, let me ask you again: Why do you not trust the Lord? Is is because you think that if you left it in the hands of the Lord He might screw it up again like He did with Adam and Eve?

Sunbeam: I believe salvation is by grace through faith alone, but my faith is acted out with repentance actions, or it should be and has to be. This is not something to boast about at all. I have to humble myself continually. I certainly don't feel prideful with that, pride is something to repent of.

Well, if salvation is by grace alone through faith in that grace then how come there won't be a single person saved until you do the walk? It seems to me that you just don't think God's grace is sufficient for the job and you need to help Him out. It is no wonder that you have to "humble yourself continually." If I had to help God get it right every single day, then I'd probably have to humble myself too after all that satisfaction of helping God finally get it right.

We aren't saved by our status works, that is for sure. There are people that think that because they have given a lot of money to charity or earned the Nobel Peace prize or were highly ascetic and gifted, or held a respected political office that think that that means they are going to heaven. But the bible says we are going to be judged on our inner lives and motivation in our living, not our outer actions that seem successful. I tell you, you have these two things confused

Well, the last time I checked, and I am an expert in the field, walking was a work simply because it required energy. But, I'm willing to be reasonable and entertain new ideas. You quit having faith in that walk which is saving you and let's see if the grace of God apart from your walking is able to do the job.

Oh, and you are perfectly free to trust your salvation in being judged "on YOUR inner life and motivation" if you think it will work better than trusting in the Lord and Him only but as for me and my house, we will sing this song:

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.

Refrain

On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.

When darkness seems to hide His face,
I rest on His unchanging grace.
In every high and stormy gale,
My anchor holds within the veil.

Refrain

His oath, His covenant, His blood,
Support me in the whelming flood.
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my Hope and Stay.

Refrain

When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh may I then in Him be found.
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne.

Refrain​

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[nobdysfool]

No matter how often it is denied with Scripture. Which is why I said "I feel like I'm herding marbles"... Reflects perfectly Col2:6, Rom8:12-17, and others like Heb10:36. Very good post, Sunbeam.
Exactly, Suzie.

I think the only marbles you're having to deal with are the ones falling out of your own head...as in "losing your marbles". There you go again, accusing Calvinists of teaching the God uses "compulsion" and "force" to bring men to Himself. Nowhere have we said that. It is your misinterpretation of what we have said, due to your closed mind and hardened heart, not willing to listen and learn, but believing you already know it all. I don't think you can conceive of a God Who is able to order circumstances and events in such a way that men will freely choose to do exactly what He wants them to do, and He can do it without compulsion or force-against-will. You have never ever thought of God in that light, or you would INSTANTLY know what we are saying. It wold be crystal-clear to you. Such is the nature of Election.

Over and over again, you keep placing on man a measure of action he must take, not only to obtain salvation, but to keep it as well, all the while denying that it is God Who provides the ability, the motivation, and the means. You consistently portray man as having to do something on his own, to obtain and seal his salvation. In essence, you are arguing that man has the ability to turn, the ability to repent and believe before he is saved, before God grants him grace. That is in essence saying that man has some good in him, something untouched by sin. That is the error of Pelagius. That belief permeates everything you have written on this thread. It shows up in every post. That is why we engage you at every point, because it is error! In order to bolster and buttress your belief, you have attempted to paint a false portrait of Calvinism, a skewed view, in the hopes that you can discredit Calvinism without having to answer its clearly scriptural points.

I will ask you this question, and I want a clear, unequivocal answer. If you do not or will not answer it, it is because you know that to answer truthfully, you will have to admit that your beliefs are lies, and unscriptural. If you don't answer at all, it shows that you cannot answer the question. The question is:

Can an unregenerate man bring forth saving faith from his corrupt and depraved heart, and obtain salvation from God?

If you answer that question correctly ( or even if you don't), the ancilliary questions are:

If he can, how does it happen, seeing that a bad well cannnot give good water, or a bad tree, good fruit?

If he cannot, what must happen before he can ?

We're awaiting your answers. Ben....

 

[Ben johnson]

I think the only marbles you're having to deal with are the ones falling out of your own head...as in "losing your marbles".

I am "thick-skinned"; such "ad hominem" I can easily take; but for the purposes of Christian Forums, regardless of whether it's directed to Ben Johnson or ANYONE ELSE, it is a violation of rule #1:

.:Forum Rule 1:.
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Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"

1) You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian.
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It is acceptable to say "I think you are completely misunderstanding Scripture and off-base"; it is not acceptable to say "you're losing your marbles".

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If I am so in error, then please answer this post from a page or two back:

For the thousandth time ..God forces no one ..
God frees us so we can come to him.

Calvinism says "God changes their hearts, BEFORE they seek Him, BEFORE they believe. Calvinism says "belief flows from the changed heart"; Calvinism says "ONLY belief can flow from the 'God-changed-heart' " and "ONLY UNBELIEF can flow from the UNCHANGED heart". Please explain the difference between this, and "forced/coercive".

So then are all men without exception justified by the cross..(Universalism)or does the all mean all that come?

"SO THEN condemnation came to all men, EVEN SO justification came to all men. Death spread to all men because all sinned; those who RECEIVE the grace and WHO RECEIVE the gift of righteousness will reign with Jesus." Rom5:18, 12, 17. Which part of that is unclear?

Would you like to cite that source?

Go to an online Greek Bible, such as http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/ or www.blueletterbible.org, and simply compare the two passages.

2Pet1:1-4.. "Apopheugo-escaped corruption by the Epignosis-true-saved-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"
2Pet2:20-22 "Apopheugo-escaped defilements by the Epignosis-true-saved-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ"
There is no way to contend that ch2 are UNSAVED, while recognizing that ch1 are SAVED.

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

You and I disagree on where "faith-to-salvation" comes from; you say "installed/instilled by God", I say "from convicted heart". I say "salvic-faith IS salvic-belief IS steadfastness IS persevering IS abiding-in-Christ". This is our disagreement...

these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have

And Yet Jesus says, "No one can serve two masters --- you will hate the one and love the other." Matt6:24 Paul says in Rm6:15-18, "you are slaves of the one you obey; either of sin (resulting in death) or obedience resulting in righteousness. (Though you WERE slaves to sin you became OBEDIENT FROM THE HEART to the teaching to which you were committed, and freed from sin YOU BECAME SLAVES TO RIGHTEOUSNESS.)" Once more Paul asserts "obedience to righteousness comes from the HEART" (not divine instillation); and Paul boldly says "you are slaves to sin, OR slaves to righteousness."

Yet Calvinists deny that "ONTOS-APOPHEUGO-TRULY-ESCAPED" (Pet2:18) WERE truly escaped; they say "only FALESLY escaped, not REALLY." Flat contradicting Paul in Rom6:15-18, Jesus in Matt6:24, and Jesus in Matt7:16-20 ("NO BAD TREE produces GOOD FRUIT"). You can't have it both ways; Peter says THEY WERE SAVED.

Not even close to your reading Ben

I needn't search for what I said; because I am consistent.
"BRETHREN" --- saved Christians?
"IF ANY OF YOU" ---saved?
"WANDER FROM THE TRUTH" --- stumble, but not fall?
"SINNER WHO TURNS FROM ERROR SAVED PSUCHE-SOUL FROM THANATOS-DEATH"

There is no way to say "they were STUMBLED and in ERROR and SINNING but never lost SALVATION. Black-n-white, RnMom; either they were slaves to sin, or slaves to righteousness.

"Oh how does it feel to be SINLESS, BEN?"

Ben is not sinless; Ben is a slave to righteousness, so he does not PRACTICE sin, he abides in Christ and abides in repentance; when Ben sins, his faith/belief convicts his heart, he abides in repentance and God forgives him.

There was a time a couple of days ago I would have looked those up.
But it is pretty clear to any who read that you have a hard time seeing what is there, preferring to render your own words and meanings.

I wish you would. And in "showing me my error", I hope you will keep in mind what we have just discussed about 2Peter. To remain in Calvinism, one must understand 2Peter2:20-22 as "EXCEPTION to the SIN-SLAVE-or-GOD-SLAVE principle", vs18 wrong about TRULY-ESCAPED, vs21 wrong about HAVING-KNOWN-TO-HAVE-TURNED-AWAY --- they didn't REALLY know so they didn't REALLY turn away". BTW, "having known" uses "epiginosko"...

Jesus said the most important thing was to preach the word Ben. What you are teaching is not the word. This is said to you in love, you can not teach what you do not know.

Then SHOW me my error. Show me how the TRULY ESCAPED were NOT truly escaped, show me how they only APPEARED to escape defilements even though they were REALLY "slaves to sin" (and therefore, as the False ones in 2Pet2:14, NEVER CEASED FROM SIN; and 2Pet2:19 SLAVES of corruption); did they cease-from-sin and escape defilements, or not? How can a sin-slave APPEAR as a God-slave? Was Jesus WRONG that we CANNOT know them by their fruits? Was Jesus wrong and a BAD tree CAN produce good fruits?. Show me how "apopheugo-epignosis-kurios-soter" changes meanings from CH1 to CH2. Can you?

 

[Ben johnson]

Welcome to the boards, Volleyball! (Are you any GOOD at volleyball???)

Don't be afraid to jump in; discussions sometimes get intense, but we all (I hope) understand the idea of "agreeing-to-disagree" and "loving each other".

RE "cursing God", you're right, Jesus said "blasphemy against the Spirit will never be forgiven". I've always wondered about this; I THINK that it's not forgiven, ASSUMING that the person remains IN tha blasphemy (unbelief); I don't think the rest of Scripture supports the idea that "there's ONE THING that you can do that will place you FOREVER beyond God's reach". Part-n-parcel of what Jesus did for us, by love, on the Cross, is FORGIVENESS. _If_ we repent, of course...

 

[Ben johnson]

We're awaiting your answers. Ben....

You re-interpret "ALL", into "SOME" --- in Jn12:32; [color=cr4imson]yet I read it as "JIESUS DRAWS ALL MEN to Himself."[/color]

You re-interpret 1Tim2:1-4 int "...desires only SOME". But I read, "Kings, all in authority, ...God desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".

I read Romans 1:19-20 to say "God made Hismelf evident to them, they are WITHOUT EXCUSE".

You read Romans 5:18 as "Justification to SOME"; I read it:
"SO THEN, condemnation came to PAS-ANTHROPOS-ALL-MEN;
EVEN SO justification came to PAS-ANTHROPOS-ALL-MEN.

I see an exact equality of HOW MUCH CONDEMNATION CAME, with HOW MUCH JUSTIFICATION CAME. Verse 12 says "all men condemned BECAUSE all men sinned", verse 17 says "all are justified WHO RECEIVE grace/gift".

I read Romans 10:17 & 9-10, and see that "BELIEF/FAITH" (saving faith/belief) comes from the HEART. So the dynamic that I see is that God sincerely calls EVERYONE to salvation, and revealse Himself in enough measure to overcome his depravity and pesent him with a REAL CHOICE.

Throughout the Gospel salvation is presented as "salvation for all who WILL believe". John5:39-47 & 8:42-45 Jesus berates them for "unwillingness", and accusing them: "You aren't REALLY even FOLLOIWING God OR Moses, how shall you follow ME?"

You understand Eph2:5 as saying "God made you alive WHILE you were dead BEFORE you believed"; I understand it as "God made you alive FROM dead THROUGH your belief".

Scripture after Scripture states "all who believe are saved, all who do not believe are condemned".

I believe that answers your question...

 

[calgal]

I guess Ben is in a Relationship over the Word of God type church from his statements and reactions to correction. The sad thing about these churches apart from the simplistic understanding of God is that they make it so easy to say "Gosh! Those JW's or Mormons are really not so different from us! i can join them and still be ok in God's eyes." :Sigh:

 

[Ben johnson]

Hello, Calgal.

What's your answer to 2Peter2:20-22, Post #1545?

Where they "NEVER-SAVED-ESCAPED-DEFILEMENTS"? Or were they "NOT-REALLY-FALLEN"?

Or is there a way we can say, "THIS is only HYPERBOLE, it can't REALLY happen, he's saying "what IF" but the reality is it CAN'T; it's only positive affirmation that it CAN'T happen...

What's your understanding?

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Hello, Calgal.

What's your answer to 2Peter2:20-22, Post #1545?

Where they "NEVER-SAVED-ESCAPED-DEFILEMENTS"? Or were they "NOT-REALLY-FALLEN"?

Or is there a way we can say, "THIS is only HYPERBOLE, it can't REALLY happen, he's saying "what IF" but the reality is it CAN'T; it's only positive affirmation that it CAN'T happen...

What's your understanding?

Hey Ben, while you're waiting on Calgal to respond, perhaps you can find the time to respond to my #1471 which dealt with Ezekiel 11 and Ezekiel 18.

When you're don'e with that, perhaps you can answer the issues presented to you in my #1494 which dealt with your understanding of when regeneration takes place, and how Ephesians 1:4 disproved your contention that God's choice of us happens at the moment of salvation.

As far as that goes, i'd still like to get an answer on how many times that the Perfect participle middle-passive form is rendered as a direct middle in the New Testament (hint: never, it's always passive).

You are pretty good about claiming that you've provided answers, but awful miserly when it comes to actually providing answers.

It is self evident to anyone that you don't have a clue about Greek, in spite of your pretentions to the contrary. You also don't provide answers in spite of your claim to the contrary.

Robert Shank (your mentor whether you know it or not) was worth 100 of you.

 

[Ben johnson]

Hey Ben, while you're waiting on Calgal to respond, perhaps you can find the time to respond to my #1471 which dealt with Ezekiel 11 and Ezekiel 18.

The question was not specifically to Calgal; but to all Calvinists. I would really like to hear YOUR response to it, CDL.

ANSWER to 1471: The same people as those in Ezk36 that Calvinists claim "God UNILATERALLY changed their hearts, BEFORE they came to Him and BEFORE they forsook abominations". God gathers Israel from their scattering, and assembles them in the land; assembled, they remove detestables/abominations and turn to Him; He gives them new hearts. But clearly not ALL of them forsake detestables/abominations. So quoting ch11 is effective in RESPONSE to Calvinists who assert "unilateral action by God on those in ch36". Vs 11:18 & 21 demonstrate that not ALL of them TURNED to God. Refuting the "unilateral-change" theory.

The dynamic clearly asserted in Ezk18 is "righteous turning away from God, and unrighteous turning towards God". This also refutes "predestined-election", as fully as Ezk36:26-27 has been refuted; there is no unilateral action demonstrated by God. A wicked man CAN turn to righteousness, and a righteous man CAN turn towards wickedness.

When you're done with that, perhaps you can answer the issues presented to you in my #1494 which dealt with your understanding of when regeneration takes place, and how Ephesians 1:4 disproved your contention that God's choice of us happens at the moment of salvation.

Eph1:1-4 seems to support "Predestined-Election". But there is no way to deny the passages that speak of losing salvation; in addition, Jesus is clear in Matt22 about the foundation of slavation --- everyone is invited the same, and those who receive the invitation become the chosen. (There is no other way to understand Mtt2:14). It was a Baptist minister that drew my attention to the connection between 2Thess2:13 and Eph1:4. If we are "PREDESTINED-TO-SALVATION", then that contradicts the "fall-from-salvation" verses. But 2Thess2 says "we are chosen in Him from the beginning for salvation through sanctification and through faith in the truth. I realize that Calvinists assert "SALVIC-FAITH is INSTILLED by GOD" --- but I understand "salvic-faith/salvic-belief comes from the HEART" (see Rom6:17, "FROM THE HEART"). This then presents "chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world", NOT contradicting that each has the freedom to believe --- that is the mechanism of the CHOOSING --- Jesus was predestined before the world, and all who BELIEVE are chosen in Him before the foundation, as it is through our PRESENT FAITH. I realize the Calinist will reject this concept; but unless you can REFUTE what I just posted on 2Pet2:20-22, and James 1:14-16 & 5:19-20 and Gal3:1-2 & 5:1-7 (which undeniably speak of FALLING-FROM-SALVATION), there is no choice but to consider what I've said of Eph1.

Also, Eph1:13 supports the sequence: hear, believe, sealed-with-the-Spirit (sealed ON that belief). That the Spirit CAN be "grieved" is clear in Eph4:30; "insulted" in Heb10:29; "resisted" in Acts7:51.

As far as that goes, i'd still like to get an answer on how many times that the Perfect participle middle-passive form is rendered as a direct middle in the New Testament (hint: never, it's always passive).

I defer to the Greek scholars among us, see this thread.

ScottEmerson: The Greek word is tetagmenoi, which is the middle-passive voice form of tasso. Middle-passive is a somwhat rare construction where the subject receives the action, so it can best be translated "many as set themselves to eternal life believed."

Cougan: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).

The controversy which surrounds this text is to be found in the last phrase, "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). A casual reading of this verse makes it easy to see why Calvinistic theologians readily include it as one of their so-called proof texts for their false teaching concerning foreknowledge and foreordination (predestination) of persons to salvation (and some to (damnation).

Those who would subscribe to Calvinistic doctrine teach that God in some arbitrary way unconditionally elected certain individuals to eternal life and condemned others to eternal damnation. They assert that such election is unchangeable and unconditional and that man is unable and helpless to do anything whatsoever to alter the circumstances, either for good or evil. This teaching is the basis for their false doctrines of "irresistible grace" (which asserts that those elected to be saved, will be, whether they want to be or not), "eternal security" (which teaches that the elect saints will never fall), and "limited atonement" of Christ upon the cross (which asserts that Christ died only for the "elect" and not for all persons).

Does Acts 13:48 teach or imply that certain ones are foreordained to eternal life? Does it in any way suggest that only such persons as were previously ordained to eternal life could believe and did believe? Let us be honest. There can be no question that the exact English wording of Acts 13:48 in the KJV and the ASV could allow, within itself, the Calvinistic conclusion. This is not the only conclusion which could be drawn, even though the wording may allow for such a conclusion, as we shall see.

First, when we consider the whole counsel of God on this subject we will find that the clear teaching of the Scriptures will not allow us to draw the Calvinistic conclusion. Second, the clearest meaning of the original Greek (the language in which Luke wrote and the language which his readers read, spoke, and understood) is not conveyed by either the ASV or the KJV.

Let us consider first the Greek construction of the sentence. The following is a transliteration of the Greek found in the last phrase of verse 48: "... [@kai] [@episteusan] [@hosoi] [@esan] [@tetagmenoi] [@eis] [@zoen] [@aionion]." This is either pluperfect periphrastic middle or passive. Translators usually give it the passive meaning; but the middle meaning would be equally correct, grammatically speaking. The Greek verb [@tasso] (which is the stem of [@tetagmenoi]) here means "place in order," "assign," "to put in place," as well as "ordain." A correct translation using the middle voice would be: "... and as many as had placed (arranged) themselves for eternal life believed" (this is the direct middle).

When one utilizes a trustworthy translation of the Scriptures, a knowledge of Greek is not necessary for a correct understanding of the Scriptures. The truth can be known only by studying the whole counsel of God on any given subject. With the knowledge that God's Word never contradicts itself, we are assured that whatever Acts 13:48 is teaching it is not the Calvinistic position. Scripture adequately teaches that all accountable people do have something vital to do with their relationship with God. It is that relationship with God that will determine their eternal destiny. The following passages are given for your study and consideration: Matt. 11:28-30; John 5:40; Acts 2:40; Phil. 2:12-13; 1 Tim. 4:16; 2 Peter 1:10; 3:9; Rev. 3:20; 22:17.

One last factor should be observed -- the immediate context. In Acts 46 Paul blames the disobedient Jews for their own conduct, "... but seeing ye put it from you (the Word of God, S.A.O.), and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life ..." Notice that Paul did not say, "God is the one to blame, after all he didn't foreordain you; you couldn't be saved even if you wanted to!" The Scripture is clear, the responsibility was theirs, not God's. They had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life! In like manner the obedient "were glad and glorified the word of the Lord" (Acts 13:48). Having good and honest hearts they obeyed the gospel, thus "saving themselves" (Acts 2:40) by reaching out and cooperating with God's grace. Salvation is a combination of God's action and man's response.

We cannot escape the conclusion that Scripture teaches that God did foreordain the plan and conditions of salvation. Those who accept God's plan and conditions thus "place themselves" under the grace of God and are recipients of eternal salvation. Acts 13:48 does not teach unconditional Calvinistic foreordination!

You are pretty good about claiming that you've provided answers, but awful miserly when it comes to actually providing answers.

It is self evident to anyone that you don't have a clue about Greek, in spite of your pretentions to the contrary. You also don't provide answers in spite of your claim to the contrary.

Never claimed to be a Greek Scholar; yet I have basic understanding, the affirmation OF Greek scholars, and this "weird idea" that the Bible was intended to be understood by the comman man.

OR woman...

 

[Ben johnson]

Robert Shank (your mentor whether you know it or not) was worth 100 of you.

I read "Elect In The Son" after I wrote the majority of my text; what he says is dead on to what I say --- many concepts IDENTICAL and PARALLEL. But I don't think he went into Rom9 enough, and certainly not into John 6; it's been a while since I've read it, but I don't think he cites nearly as many "Fall-Away" verses, like Gal3:1-2, 5:1-7.

I hear "Life In The Son" is just as good.

But if you think he did such a good job, why don't you believe him?

 

[suzie]

One does not need to be a Calvinist to be saved..but if one chooses to be a Bible student one will come to Calvinism as it is clearly presented by the word of God.

Let me play devils advocate for a minute.

If You chose God ..How is it you can not "unchoose Him".

Did God remove the most precious gift that the arminians have (free will) did they become puppets then?

The more consistent position for an Arminian would be the Wesleyan doctrine of having the ability to loose your salvation.
Predestination and election are the doctrines of the reformation. Those that left the doctrines of Protestants did not want to loose the one thing they liked..the preservation of the saints.But the preservation of the saints only "works " if it is the end result of election .
To try to fit it into a I choose God , he does not choose me theology one has to believe He is keeping you against your "free will"
Ray and Ben are wrong..but they are consistent in their doctrine

__________________


One would not necessarily choose Calvinism --you have chosen it. Most would consider their own belief system "clearly presented by the Word of God"....

"If you choose God, how can you not 'unchoose' Him?" When we choose Christ, we die to self and take on Him. We are no longer our own, but belong to God. God sends His Spirit to dwell in us--thus begins a life long journey of sanctification. Each and every person has the free will to choose God. God chooses each of us- all of us-He desires for all to come to Him.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Present tense salvation

what is it ?

2 peter 1:4 Where by are given unto exceeding greatest and Best promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Here we see that we may or may not partake in this new nature which goes along with

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would

Here we find out why the war on us [2cor 10:4-5]...

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: continue to walk as children of light

why is this ?.......It is called a daily battle

Is God not fighting are battle by keep us in the light......
.............like ben has indicated

NO, that is not how God works....... Since we are sons Gal 4:6-7 He allows us as we learnwhich is by the H.S. 1 cor 2:10 His teaching to live it as well as know it...it is call expericial knowledge.

do we fail yes even though God gives us[1cor 10:13] an out when we are tested but usually we do not even do that ...1 john 1:8-10 states that God says we can confess BUT WHAT IF A BELIEVER REFUSES ....look at Hebrews 12:5-11 states he will punish us till repentance or until death James 5:20

What are we when we sin ....Carnal/fleshly/enemy of God...Gal 4:29, Romans 8:7,

This is called FREE WILL

 

[nobdysfool]

I am "thick-skinned"; such "ad hominem" I can easily take; but for the purposes of Christian Forums, regardless of whether it's directed to Ben Johnson or ANYONE ELSE, it is a violation of rule #1:

.:Forum Rule 1:.
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Rule No. 1 - No "Flaming"

1) You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself. This includes implied accusations that another member is not a Christian.
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It is acceptable to say "I think you are completely misunderstanding Scripture and off-base"; it is not acceptable to say "you're losing your marbles".

Really not an "ad hominem" attack, or any kind of attack at all. You were the one who kept making remarks about marbles, so I just put a humorous spin on it. Someone was bound to do so, and everyone was probably thinking it anyway. If you want to say you're thick-skinned, then why even dignify or further call attention to the remark like this? Just let it go. It wasn't meant as an insult, just a humorous rejoinder to your remark about "herding marbles". If one is trying to hold on to marbles, and some are getting away from him, it can be rightly said that he's losing his marbles, can it not???

 

[frumanchu]

You re-interpret "ALL", into "SOME" --- in Jn12:32; yet I read it as "JIESUS DRAWS ALL MEN to Himself."

False. You can only maintain such an assertion by a strict translation of pas to mean 'all individually and without exception' which falls apart rather quickly as soon as you apply it to verses like 1 Tim 6:10. You are accusing us of changing the quantitative term itself when we are only differing in the nature of the quantification, not the quantification itself. We read it to mean 'some of all types' and not 'all individually without exception.'

You re-interpret 1Tim2:1-4 int "...desires only SOME". But I read, "Kings, all in authority, ...God desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".

See above.


[quote[I read Romans 1:19-20 to say "God made Hismelf evident to them, they are WITHOUT EXCUSE".[/quote]
So do we. However it appears that you take this further in proposing that God has presented the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all men. Is this correct?

You read Romans 5:18 as "Justification to SOME"; I read it:
"SO THEN, condemnation came to PAS-ANTHROPOS-ALL-MEN;
EVEN SO justification came to PAS-ANTHROPOS-ALL-MEN.

I see an exact equality of HOW MUCH CONDEMNATION CAME, with HOW MUCH JUSTIFICATION CAME. Verse 12 says "all men condemned BECAUSE all men sinned", verse 17 says "all are justified WHO RECEIVE grace/gift".

Then if you be at all logically consistent you must either claim Pelagianism or Universalism, Ben. If justification is only accomplished by receiving the grace/gift (which it is), and there is exact equality between how much justification came and how much condemnation came, then either all men are justified because all men were condemned, or because not all are justified not all are condemned (to maintain exact equality). OR do you believe that it's a numbers game and that the number of people saved will be exactly equal to the number condemned?

I read Romans 10:17 & 9-10, and see that "BELIEF/FAITH" (saving faith/belief) comes from the HEART. So the dynamic that I see is that God sincerely calls EVERYONE to salvation, and revealse Himself in enough measure to overcome his depravity and pesent him with a REAL CHOICE.

This still does not address the issue of why one would not choose Christ given a clear, understanding choice between life and death. The nature of man's depravity is his persistent and complete rebellion against God. Assuming for a moment that you remove desire from the equation, it then becomes a purely intellectual issue, like a math problem. Such is not a decision with any moral culpability attached. Sure, you can want 2+2 to equal 5, but then you've brought desire into the situation. If the universal call of the Gospel is of itself sufficient to eliminate man's persistent desire to reject God, then all who hear the Gospel should be saved.

Ironically, in saying that God nullifies their depravity for the purpose of presenting a 'choice' of their own 'free will' you are actually saying God VIOLATES their original choice to reject Him. They've already chosen and He's making them choose again. Not only that, but the notion that God MUST do so in order to be just implies that man is not truly, justifiably condemnable apart from being presented a clear choice to discontinue their rebellion.

Throughout the Gospel salvation is presented as "salvation for all who WILL believe". John5:39-47 & 8:42-45 Jesus berates them for "unwillingness", and accusing them: "You aren't REALLY even FOLLOIWING God OR Moses, how shall you follow ME?"

Is not God justified in berating those engaged in willing rebellion against Him? Is God only justified in berating them if He makes them choose again whether or not they REALLY mean to rebel? I know you don't see it, Ben, but your position removes any culpability of man in his sinfulness because of circumstance.

You understand Eph2:5 as saying "God made you alive WHILE you were dead BEFORE you believed"; I understand it as "God made you alive FROM dead THROUGH your belief".

But as we've been pointing out, that requires a response from the dead man in order for him to come back to life. It's like saying the man lying dead on the ER table has to sign a consent form before the doctor hits him with the paddles.

Scripture after Scripture states "all who believe are saved, all who do not believe are condemned".

IF you believe, THEN you will be saved. IF you do not believe, THEN you are condemned. The fact that Scripture after Scripture states this does not support your position regarding the ability/inability of men to actually meet the condition. Ben, over and over I've brought this to your attention and you STILL have not addressed it. I've given repeated examples which refute the notion that conditional statements such as these speak AT ALL to the ability or inability of men to meet the condition. These statements do not support EITHER of our positions. They are neutral with regards to the nature of man.

 

[CCWoody]

You might have been denounced by the CHURCH as a Pelagian heretic if....​

(With apologies to Jeff Foxworthy!)​

Calvinism says "God changes their hearts, BEFORE they seek Him, BEFORE they believe. Calvinism says "belief flows from the changed heart"; Calvinism says "ONLY belief can flow from the 'God-changed-heart' " and "ONLY UNBELIEF can flow from the UNCHANGED heart". Please explain the difference between this, and "forced/coercive".

Come on, Ben, I'm still waiting for you to play the little game. I'm perfectly willing to accept the following as the teaching of Calvinism:

Calvinism says "God changes their hearts, BEFORE they seek Him, BEFORE they believe.
Calvinism says "belief flows from the changed heart";
Calvinism says "ONLY belief can flow from the 'God-changed-heart' " and "ONLY UNBELIEF can flow from the UNCHANGED heart".
​

However, seeing that you seem to be of the opinion that this is wrong and not Biblical, I'm waiting for you to explain your position in the matter and defend it. I'm perfectly able to explain how this is not "forced/coercive". But, I will not do so until you explain and defend your position from scripture.

After all, my view is the orthodox view that has been taught by the churches for 2000 years. My view needs no defense, unless you somehow think that the gates of hell should open and prevail against the Church.

So, I'd like for you to explain your view. Here are the rules:

1. You receive 10,000 points for explaining your view.
2. You receive 1000 points for each scripture you use to explain your view.
3. You receive a 500 point penalty for taking scripture out of context. (each scripture)
4. You receive a 1000 point penalty for adding words to or taking words out of your scripture citation. (each word -- and you must tell us which translation you are using with each cite -- NO BJ TRANSLATIONS ALLOWED)
5. You receive a 1000 point penalty for deviating from an orthodox teaching of a scripture verse. I will verify each deviation with a citation from an historic church Creed. (each verse)
6. You receive a 50,000 point penalty for each statement you make which has been denounced by the churches as being the Pelagian heresy. Synod or council citation will be provided with the name of the synod or council and the year.
7. You receive a 25,000 point penalty adder if I can find a synod or council cite which also denounces your statements by the use of the word Blasphemy or Hell or Anathema or other such similar word. (each word)

Whatdaya say? I game if you are.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[CCWoody]

Who here wants to see Ben play?

Come on now, let's help him get up from that seat and demonstrate for us his faith by walking that aisle. Let's give him a word of encouragement.

[applause breaks out!]

come on now, Ben, don't grieve the Spirit. Jeeeeesus is waiting right up here with me! Time is running out. There will only be 32 more verses of "Just as I am" before we really must break for lunch.

Come on, everyone, let's encourage Ben right up out of that seat.

[more applause accompanied by whistling....]

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[MizDoulos]

OK. This thread is closed.

A warning message was placed on page 113 and the bickering and disharmony still continue. Besides, this thread has gone on long enough and has been discussed thoroughly and I see no reason to keep it open.