Can Christians lose there salvation?

[rnmomof7]

Here is stated in plain words the exact position for which, by my repeating it, Fru demanded my apology.

"God does not decree THE ELECT to perish."

If those-for-whom-God-waits are ELECT, then they CANNOT perish, can they? Though you (Calvinists) say that "they CANNOT perish BECAUSE He waits for them" --- then there must be coming a day when God will no longer elect; lest He CLOSE THE DOOR too soon (before they receive their election).

Ben PLEASE do not ever attempt to write a book about Calvinism..after having this explained to you many many times you prefer your version of Calvinism..instead of the one formed by Augustine, Luther and Calvin

All the elect must be born, be regenerated and repent and believe ..there is no shortcut..THAT IS THE GOSPEL, and the plan laid down by God before the foundation of the earth.

There is a day when the last of the elect will be saved and then Christ will return in judgment

And this idea violates the whole theme of the Gospel; which is that we are to buy oil NOW, we are to be prepared NOW, for the day-of-the-Lord is coming as a THIEF; we should be prepared that the day not SURPISE US. Matt25:1-13

Irrelevant to the topic Ben..

We are all to wait for the coming of our hope.
He will come as a thief in the night
Some without oil (Holy Spirit )wait unto their condemnation

We await our Savior and Lord and He brings His reward with Him

(Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. )

Maranatha

If God waits for the ELECT to be SAVED, then they don't hafta worry about buying the oil, do they?

Nope . God has filled our lamp with oil that will never run out and a light that will never go out.

But if God DELAYS so that MORE can CHOOSE to be saved, then we should buy the oil NOW, shouldn't we?

Before the door is closed...

You are really big into saving yourself Ben

 

[frumanchu]

I'm curious; has anyone ever seen this kind of attitude coming from BEN towards any of YOU?

Please tell me you're not going to quote Matthew 5:10 next.

Ben, I don't take the accusations I make lightly for I know that should they be with intent to slander I will most definitely have to answer to them before the Throne. The fact is that you HAVE been consistently evasive in your answers (or lack thereof) not only with myself but with others as well. I'm not one to make such accusations without backing them up. So far you merely feign surprise and retreat to sanctimony as though blameless.

Wonder why?

I love you you presume the answer before its out of one's mouth, thus belying complete insincerity in the original question.

The truth is that such an attitude underlies many of your posts. It's subtlety does not hide its existence.

 

[nobdysfool]

Here once again is the sequence --- listen, believe, receive the Holy Spirit --- be saved. How can I demonstrate that BELIEF is the convicted heart's RESPONSE to the Gospel? "For with the HEART, MAN BELIEVES."

A wicked heart cannot exercise saving faith, Ben. It just cannot. A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit. It simply cannot do so. It is impossible. Saving faith is a gift of God, because man's faith, born of a wicked heart, is an abomination to God. God changes the heart first. Otherwise, man cannot ever believe savingly.

You just will not accept that man is as utterly bad as he is. You still hold out for man to be able to do something to contribute to his own salvation. You still believe that the bad tree (unregenerate man) can bring forth good fruit (saving faith). Faith that is acceptable to God is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, which cannot exist in an unregenerate man. Man's heart must first be regenerated by the power of God, then the Holy Spirit can grant saving faith to the man to repent, believe, and be born again.

Your rebelliousness is showing again, Ben. You still want to retain a measure of control over your own fate, and you will throw away eternal security to gain it. It is the Lie of Eden, the willfulness of Lucifer, who said,

"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High". Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Isa 14:13-15)

There is your vaunted free will in all its flower and glory, and its final end.

 

[frumanchu]

And here is my REPLY, [post=1174814]post#971[/post] (were ya' sleepin'?)

Was I sleeping? You mean when I wrote this in [post=1175783]post #991[/post]:

=========================================
Roughly translated: "I read back through and I see you have a consistent case against me, so I'm going to try and focus in on what I perceive to be the weakest link and ignore the rest." That's what this sounds like to me. You did not address at all my critique of your logic, and you are defending only one verse despite my exposing the fallacy on numerous verses.
-
Welcome to the Ben Johnson Department of Redundancy Department.

Do you not realize that what you're saying is that they have to believe in Him in order to believe in Him? Tell me, what are they supposed to believe He is that would have led them to believe He is the Messiah?!?
-
That (as well as the rest of this post) has nothing to do with my critique of your logic, Ben.
=========================================


So, as you can see, you never really addressed the issues I raised at all. You didn't then, and you haven't now.

In quoting John10:26, the Cavlinist misses ideas like Jn8:42: If God were your Father, then you would love ME." Identical to Jn5:46 (If you had believed MOSES then you would believe ME!) They were only PRETENDING to follow God; had they really BEEN following God, then they would have believed in Jesus. Identically, they only PRETENDED to be following Moses; had they REALLY been, they would have followed JESUS. There is NO PREDESTINATION ASSERTED, but only UNWILLINGNESS; and the Calvinist idea that "unless God FORCEFULLY CHANGES THEIR HEARTS they CANNOT receive Jesus" --- doesn't work in context, Jesus says "you are UNWILLING to come" (Jn5:40), "you DO not receive Me" (Jn5:43), "HOW can you believe when you seek MAN'S glory and not GOD'S?" (Jn5:45); "you didn't even believe in MOSES, how will you believe ME?" (Jn5:47) Totally free will here, Fru; not one shred of "PREDESTINATION"...

More of the same.

 

[Sunbeam]

Actually, she correctly understands salvation. It's not about works; never was, never will be. (Do you like CAT'S-EYE or AGGIES???)

Sunbeam: I believe I do understand salvation and it something I do strive for by GOD'S SPIRIT (keeping a reign on my own willfulness for proper boundaries) and the fruits of the Spirit, selfcontrol in the name of Jesus to hope I will be judged worthy of eternal life in Judgment Day. I understand that repentance is something we need to do and maintain for salvation. That is not the filthy-rags type of work the bible says to avoid. Filthy-rags works is works done mechanically that show status or accomplishment but not Spirit with it. "I was mayor and well-liked so I deserve heaven on that basis" "I inspired people with my movies" "I won the Nobel peace prize" "I was an author of high reputation"...These statements show things that happened but they do not indicate a repentant heart before God. If these statements are indicated to show they deserve salvation, they are filthyrags works. When arminian peoples, which I think I am that, speak of works, they mean repentance actions, not filthy rags selfrighteous works. The term pelganism or something like that mean "works without God" I believe and that is what you calvinsts are accusing me of it seems. I beleive we are saved by our walk of faith. (watches Cat's eye marble join the fold and hoping it will stay there)

 

[frumanchu]

Why do you ignore this part of this scripture. You've failed to address it properly.You claimed before that this isn't what was being said this was your response.

Ray, quite frankly I haven't got time for such complete nonsense. You can assert that I 'ignore this part of scripture' all you want. I don't have time right now to dig back through and find my response. You're more than welcome to link to it, but as there are numerous outstanding responses I'm waiting for from you don't be surprised if I don't spend a lot of time working on it right now.

 

[rnmomof7]

Hi Rnmomof7;
Actually I'm not, but I have been accused of it by some present on this board.
Then why didn't he just say that?

He did ,but you can not read it Ray.

This is what you are saying. Not what Peter said. This is how you interpret it, but this is not what he says.
I didn't say that you did. Must you interpret everything anyone says as an untruth. simply based on the fact I oppose calvinism

Nope based on a misreading of scripture..not your doctrinal position

. I have yet to meet a perfect Calvinist. Or anyone for that matter with a perfect doctrine

Well there was Jesus

Your opinion again. With God there is nothing impossible. The thing I find amussing is how Calvinist would rather argue there belief with out the use of clear scripture.

No Ray...if you believe that is a salvation passage and not a judgment one (Do read the surrounding verses that start with the judgment of the flood )

Then we have to look at what you are believing..That Jesus has promised he will not return until EVERY MAN IS SAVED (Not willing that ANY will perish)...Yep that is what it says..

So your rendering says there will be no return of Christ , there will be no judgment and there will be on resurrection of the Dead.

Jesus is waiting for the impossible .

You say ALL things are possible with God..not even God does not have a completely free will Ray..He is bound by His nature and His word. So He is not going to go back to Eden and decree all men saved.God is IMMUTABLE .

Finaly something we agree on. We are all drawn when we hear the gospel. Some don't here because they don't want to hear because of there rebellion.
Of corse I do and being in hell is spiritual death.This is why your interpretation of being dead spiritually so that we can't hear or understand is wrong.

Ray are you smarter or more holy or more cleaver than the lost? What brought you to hear and accept the gospel when the man next door curses the same offer of eternal life?

Because once your dead spiritually your dead physcially.Being a nurse I would have thought you would know this. Being dead spiritually is dying eternally and your conscience of it.Otherwise hell would be the grave. We both know better than that, or do you disagree?.
In Christ;
Romanbear

I do not understand your last statement..but on that what I have said is if a man dies spiritually when he dies , you are teaching soul death . When in fact the soul of the lost will forever burn in Hades

 

[rnmomof7]

Is Paul in hell?
Sunbeam: Paul repented of his sins and stayed that way so he wouldn't be in hell.

And how do you know that ?

Is there a scripture that says He did not continue in sin? He called himself a sinner .

If anyone says they do not sin , they are a liar

Our eternity does not rest on our perfection Sun. You rob God of his glory and His attributes when you believe it is all about you.

Sunbeam: I cannot rob God by obeying Him.

No but you rob Him of displaying His Grace and His Mercy..you are trying to earn your own salvation..you put the work of God to naught .

We are to grow in holiness..but that is a work of the holy Spirit and Gods grace. When we fall He picks us up..that is His Mercy

We have a mediator with the Father, that is offering continual sacrifices for us

Sunbeam: That statement was written by a saved person to saved people to give them hope to not give up but continue on even in troubles. It's not written to unsaved or unrepentant peoples.

Agreed ..BUT you are talking about loosing your salvation..How can you when Jesus is the mediator for you and He is offering sacrifices for you??

Sun people that think they save themselves never have peace or a clear conscience before God. Everyting rides on them.


Sunbeam: We don't just save ourselves though. God saves us when we do our part.

So you earn it from Him by making proper choices ??

These people who claim they did everything right but had no peace did not do everything right. They still have alot of sin. They claim they did this and did that and ran around on their own willful energy. They traded some sins in for others.
Usually the sins they picked up are workalohism, people-pleasing, giving money unwisely away. Of course they have no peace. They have done works without faith. Now they claim that all works are bad and that anyone who is maintaining their repentance is works without faith or what they did. But they are very different things.

We have Peace with God , His gift to us is a clear conscience.

Sunbeam ..no one will be in hell because of their sin..they will be there because they are not covered in the righteousness of Christ.

Heaven will be filled with sinners saved by the blood of the Lamb

 

[Sunbeam]

You still want to retain a measure of control over your own fate, and you will throw away eternal security to gain it. It is the Lie of Eden, the willfulness of Lucifer, who said,

"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High". Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Isa 14:13-15)
---
Sunbeam: I don't understand how obeying God's words, is to exalt yourself over God and be like Satan?

 

[rnmomof7]

Actually, she correctly understands salvation. It's not about works; never was, never will be. (Do you like CAT'S-EYE or AGGIES???)

Sunbeam: I believe I do understand salvation and it something I do strive for by GOD'S SPIRIT (keeping a reign on my own willfulness for proper boundaries)

If you are working for it Sun..it is not grace and it is not Mercy,It is a wage that God owes you ..you make God your debtor

and the fruits of the Spirit, selfcontrol in the name of Jesus to hope I will be judged worthy of eternal life in Judgment Day.

Sun, a man is worthy not because of ANYTHING He has done..but because of what Christ has done

I understand that repentance is something we need to do and maintain for salvation. That is not the filthy-rags type of work the bible says to avoid. Filthy-rags works is works done mechanically that show status or accomplishment but not Spirit with it.

Do you have a scripture to prove that ?

ALL the works of the unsaved are filthy rags and a sin to a holy God.

So any work that is done to be saved are worthless.

"I was mayor and well-liked so I deserve heaven on that basis" "I inspired people with my movies" "I won the Nobel peace prize" "I was an author of high reputation"...These statements show things that happened but they do not indicate a repentant heart before God.If these statements are indicated to show they deserve salvation, they are filthyrags works. When arminian peoples, which I think I am that, speak of works, they mean repentance actions, not filthy rags selfrighteous works.

Sun unless Repentance is given by God it is a work..We can seek repentance and not have it given.

*
Hbr 12:16**
Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

**
Hbr 12:17**
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

The term pelganism or something like that mean "works without God" I believe and that is what you calvinsts are accusing me of it seems. I beleive we are saved by our walk of faith. (watches Cat's eye marble join the fold and hoping it will stay there)

Pelagianism**denied original sin and affirmed the ability of humans to be righteous by the exercise of free will.That is a heresy and not at all what we are talking about

I am burdened by the fact that salvation is a yoke for you..that you seem to believe that you have to meet some standard to maintain your salvation.

Sun, you were saved by the grace of God.God is not an Indian giver. He knew who you were when He saved you. While you were yet a sinner He died for you. He is not going to remove His grace to you because you sin , after all you were a sinner when He loved you to Himself..

Sun understand , we are not talking about Antinomianism here at all. Men that live like H*** and think that it is fine because they are saved, have not met the God of Salvation that draws men to himself and to a desire to be holy and pleasing to Him . They have not made him Lord of their life.

Please read this short meditation. it is written by a Reform scholar named Sproul . This may say it better than I can

The following is taken from the "Before the Face of God: A Daily Guide for Living from the Book of Romans" by R.C. Sproul.

Romans 6:1-7
True Faith Yields Holiness

We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. [Rom. 6:4]

*
******* During the Reformation the great fear of the Roman Catholic Church was that the doctrine of justification by faith alone would lead people into gross misconduct. If all we have to do to be saved is believe, then perhaps it does not matter how we live. Perhaps we can embrace Jesus as Savior from sin but not pursue his lordship over all of life. Not so, said Martin Luther and the other Reformers. Authentic justification and true faith must yield a changed life.

True faith yielding holiness is Paul's theme in Romans 6. In this chapter Paul shifts his attention from justification to sanctification. Justification is God's legal declaration that our sins are forgiven and we are righteous in his sight. Sanctification describes the process that follows justification, by which our lives are daily changed and brought into conformity with Christ's righteousness. Paul's focus in Romans 6 is that true justification leads to sanctification. The root of faith must issue the fruit of obedience.

In verse 4 Paul argues from analogy. Jesus died; he was buried; he was raised again. Thus, says Paul, our old corrupt lives are dead and buried when we embrace Christ. Just as Christ came out of the tomb with a new power of resurrected life, so also the Christian shows a new life.

Paul goes on in verse 5 to say, "If we have been united with him in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection." It is impossible, says Paul, to be identified with Christ's death without also being identified with his resurrection. Further, says Paul, the whole point of crucifying our old self with Christ was so we will no longer be slaves to sin (v. 6) but will be freed from its power (v. 7). For this reason, we can and must live new and godly lives.

Coram Deo
A debate continues to rage between evangelicals who insist that good works must flow from true faith and those who advocate that such works are not essential. While good works are preferred, this second group admits, they may actually be absent. They contend that Christ as Savior can be distinguished or even separated from Christ as Lord. Do not be deceived. Christ must be Lord, and the practical evidence that he is your Savior necessarily gives evidence in a life growing into conformity to the life of Christ.

For further study: Jeremiah 33:14-16; Galatians 2:15-21; Philippians 3:1-11

 

[rnmomof7]

You still want to retain a measure of control over your own fate, and you will throw away eternal security to gain it. It is the Lie of Eden, the willfulness of Lucifer, who said,

"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High". Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (Isa 14:13-15)
---
Sunbeam: I don't understand how obeying God's words, is to exalt yourself over God and be like Satan?

Actually that was before Eden ..the lie of Eden was "ye shall be as gods" "Ye surely will not die"

When a man thinks he can save himself with good works or by being good ..he sets himself above God by making His grace and mercy unnecessary

 

[Ben johnson]

If God desired all men without exception to be saved and He can not accomplish what he desires he would be a castrated God..not the God of creation whose word ALWAYS accomplishes what it is intended to do . So what might we see from that ? Perhaps a misreading of PAS??

RnMom, salvation is based on LOVE; undeserved. Grace is because He loved us. Love does not coerce; love only asks. God certainly has the power to FORCE people to believe --- but then what would be the fellowship? Love? No.

And "PAS" may mean in some places "certain ones", but there is no way to rework passages like Rom5:18; had there BEEN an inequality between the two words "PAS", Paul would have STATED it; instead, he makes an exact EQUALITY.

I could easily be converted to Calvinism, if there was some way of understanding 2Pet2:20-22 to mean "THEY WERE NEVER SAVED"; but I know that in Greek it says "truly escaped through the saved-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but now really spiritually-turned-away from the faith". If there was some way to understand "brethren if any of you wander from the faith" as NEVER SAVED. If there was a way to see that "begun by the Spirit, WERE running WELL" either WERE NOT SAVED, or "fallen from grace and severed from Christ" does NOT mean "fallen/severed". I would embrace Calvinism if the "turn-away-from-God" verses (like Heb3:12-14, 12:25, 2:1-2, 2Pet3:17, Col2:8, 2Cor11:3, 1Tim4:1) could be made to fit "you can never REALLY fall". I could accept Limited Atonement if I could see "Savior of the WORLD" or "propitiation to the SAVED AND the WHOLE WORLD", or "Savior of ALL MEN, ABOVE ALL (malista) believers", or "justification to ALL MEN" or "let WHOSOEVER WILL take of the water of life FREELY" -- as interpretable to "LIMITED". I could be "secure in my eternal salvation" if there was some way of taking all the WARNINGS and satisfactorily understanding them as EMPTY-BUGBEAR (Col1:23, 2:8, 2Pet1:10, 3:14,17, 1Tim4:1,16, 2Pet1:10-11, Heb2:1-3, 3:12-14, 4:1, 6:4-6, 10, 12:25, 2Cor11:3, 13:5), on and on and on.

Calvinists have failed to convince me of their way to understand all these verses, and more. We seem to have reached an IMPASS --- I post verses that speak of "Jesus died for ALL", you (Calvinists) say "it's only SOME"; I show verses that say "will" and "desire" and "want", you say "of COURSE they want evil they must be CHANGED FIRST"; but rebuke after rebuke is given --- to whom? To those that CANNOT repent? Does that make SENSE? Yes, to Calvinists, it does.

Jesus said, "If you do not believe Moses' writings, how will you believe My words?" (Jn5:47 --- notice He said "you don't believe Moses", not "God has not enabled you to receive spiritual things). At the risk of angering my Calvinistic brothers and sisters, I feel the same way. I admit I do not know how to convince you of all that I have just written in this post. How can I convince you that the CROSS, was EFFECTIVE? That "many called few chosen" places the ONUS of UNCHOSEN, on MEN? Alas, I cannot.

This being impass, then let us lay aside our differences, and pursue love; RnMom, in these discussions you are a Calvinist who has come across as KIND; yet while we have been talking, the world has been watching. Words have flown here, like "liar" and "deceiver" and "hypocrite" and "sanctimonious" and "dishonest" and "heretic" and "warped" and "prideful" and "Mormon" and "Legalist" and "unrepentant" and "blasphemous" --- and, once, "GAY". Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits"; how have we made ourselves known to the world?

I do love you, RnMom; and you, Woody, and Frumanchu, and CDL, and ABIC, and Mounts, and Calgal and all my Calvinistic brothers and sisters; and Received and Romanbear and Sunbeam and all my OSNAS brethren. I desire for each of you exactly what I desire for me --- spiritual growth, Christlike maturity, that each of us be found in the center of His will. If we can agree on FELLOWSHIPPING with God, indwelt by Christ and the Holy Spirit, let's lay aside the differences and agree on love.

The most important aspect of our Christianity, at this juncture, is HARVEST.

 

[Ben johnson]

How about discussing the questions i gave you concerning Ezekiel 11, and Ezekiel 18? Quit dodging the issue.

I can discuss them if you wish; but each has been answered before, several times; you didn't receive it then, why would you receive it now? We'll discuss it if you wish.

To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1Pe 1:2-5)

The INHERITANCE is RESERVED IN HEAVEN; Hebrews says "we have need of endurance, so that when we have done the will of the Father we may receive the Promise (the inheritance)". How do I convince you that SALVIC-FAITH comes from the HEART? "For with the HEART man BELIEVES..."

Then you waffle and try to say that it's simultaneous. I can only conclude that you realized you painted yourself into a corner, and are furiously trying to cut a doorway into the wall so you can escape. Too late. You've been caught.

No waffling; those who have read my text know I am perfectly consistent. The WILL (desire) of God is that "whoever sees Jesus AND BELIEVES, may have eternal life." There are NONE who are given to Jesus, who are not believers at the time. Saying they were given BEFORE they believed cannot be supported by ANY verse.

You need to start answering the questions and points that have been sent your way

Everything HAS been answered; you won't receive my answers.

You are really big into saving yourself Ben

"By your endurance you will SAVE YOUR SOULS."
"Receiving as the outcome of YOUR FAITH the salvation of your souls."
"Repent ...save yourselves from this perverse generation."
"Pay close attention to your teaching; persevere; as you do, you will save yourselves..."

Is there a scripture that says He did not continue in sin? He called himself a sinner .

If anyone says they do not sin , they are a liar

There is a UNIVERSE OF DIFFERENCE between "coninuing sinning willfully", and "occasionally sinning while the flesh lives".

So you earn it from Him by making proper choices ??

Nope, you receive it, or reject it.

I don't understand how obeying God's words, is to exalt yourself over God and be like Satan?

Bravo!

Sun unless Repentance is given by God it is a work..We can seek repentance and not have it given.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears

CONTEXT --- he repented of LOSING THE BIRTHRIGHT ---THAT is what was not repented! Show me where "one who seeks DOES NOT FIND"? Show me where ""If we confess our sins (repent), He is faithful and just to forgvie our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, if He FEELS like it, if we are ELECT"?

 

[Romanbear]

Hi Rnmomof7;
a quote from you;

I do not think you know that you have just expresses the calvinist doctrine.

God draws us by His grace, He regenerates us and We then choose to repent and believe

LOL I didn't express being regenerated before Salvation you did. The word "regenerated" means born again to be made new this does not happen before faith and you haven't got one scripture that says it does. This is only your assumption.

You base your being unable to respond to the scriptures on romans 3:11 but in Romans 3:10 it shows that this is a quote from Paslms 14 and 53 which clearly says that these things are what a fool has said in his heart. I realize that the NIV uses quotation marks where he says there is no God. But in the original there are no quotation marks. Where does the quotation stop?. After he has finished saying what the fool has said which is also that man doesn't seek God and can't hear or understand.
Read my last post to Fru post #1492.
In Christ;
Romanbear

 

[CCWoody]

We have a mediator with the Father, that is offering continual sacrifices for us

I categorically deny that statement and declare it to be a false way:

• I hate all the ways of falsehood.
  (Psa 119:104 GB)

And, as the Psalter also says: Because Your statutes and testimonies are despised, therefore with overwhelming grief I weep.

Why is it that people hate the Lord so much that they ever delight to nail Him to the cross and crucify Him afresh every day?

Woody.

 

[CCWoody]

I beleive we are saved by our walk....

Why do you not trust the Lord?

The scriptures teach us that Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone. It is amazing that so many Christians think that they can ignore what the Holy Spirit taught the church for 2000 years and heap up for themselves private revelations about being saved by their own walk. Well, if I could claim salvation by my walk then I would certainly have a reason to boast in front of God and to all those retards who couldn't walk the walk.

And how different is the message of the Bible:

• But God who is rich in mercy, through His great love wherewith He loved us, euen when we were dead by sins, has quickened us together in Christ, by whose grace you are saved, and has raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that He might show in the ages to come the exceeding riches of His grace, through His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
  (Eph 2:4-7 GB)

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Because Your testimonies are despised, with overwhelming grief I weep.

 

[suzie]

We walk our walk BECAUSE we are saved....

 

[CCWoody]

You base your being unable to respond to the scriptures on romans 3:11 but in Romans 3:10 it shows that this is a quote from Paslms 14 and 53 which clearly says that these things are what a fool has said in his heart. I realize that the NIV uses quotation marks where he says there is no God. But in the original there are no quotation marks. Where does the quotation stop?. After he has finished saying what the fool has said which is also that man doesn't seek God and can't hear or understand.
Read my last post to Fru post #1492.
In Christ;
Romanbear

I think I'll stick with Paul's interpretation of those Psalms cites over yours, if you don't mind. Paul clearly indicates that this is not merely a subset of humanity, which you label as "a fool," but the entirety of humanity that is not currently experiencing the Salvific grace of God. So, even if I can agree that all of these people are "fools," I can clearly reject your legalistic interpretation of that.

• What then? are we more excellent? No, in no wise: for we have already proved, that all, both Jewes and Gentiles are under sin, As it is written, "There is none righteous, no not one. There is none that understands: there is none that seeks God." That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world be subjected to the judgment of God. For there is no difference: for all have sinned, and are deprived of the glory of God.
  (Rom 3:9-11,19,23 GB)

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Because Your testimonies are despised, with overwhelming grief I weep.

 

[CCWoody]

We walk our walk BECAUSE we are saved....

Oh, absolutely! We are freed from the slavery of our sin to become the bondservants of Christ and to serve Him.

• And you has He quickened, that were dead in trespasses and sins, wherein, in times past you walked, according to the course of this world, and after the prince that rules in the air, euen the spirit, that now works in the children of disobedience, among whom we also had our conversation in time past, in the lusts of our flesh, in fulfilling the will of the flesh, and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath, as well as others. For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has ordained, that we should walk in them.
  (Eph 2:1-3,10 GB)

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

[Ben johnson]

(Sunbeam) I beleive we are saved by our walk....

(Woody) Why do you not trust the Lord?

Because of verses like Col2:6: "As you have RECEIVED Christ, so walk IN Him." (Which IS trusting in Him! It's also "KEEPING OURSELVES in the love of God! Jd21) The entirity of the Christian perspective can be found in Romans; ch1 God is revealed to EVERY man, they are without excuse. 2 is against hypocrisy, and those who have never HEARD. 3 is God's impartiality, man's evilness apart from God, justification by faith. 4 is Abraham's faith (example).5 is justification, 6 is "BORN-AGAIN" (buried AND raised with Jesus), 7 is the WAR between the old-dead-but-not-always-gone-natures, and this brings us to 8. The solution to the WAR. WHAT is that solution? "We are under OBLIGATION not to walk after the flesh (that is death), but to walk by the Spirit putting to death the flesh (that is life). What is the word here, everyone? "OBLIGATION"? Or "compulsion"?

The term pelganism or something like that mean "works without God" I believe and that is what you calvinsts are accusing me of it seems.

ENDLESSLY. No matter how often it is denied with Scripture. Which is why I said "I feel like I'm herding marbles"...

I beleive we are saved by our walk of faith.

Reflects perfectly Col2:6, Rom8:12-17, and others like Heb10:36. Very good post, Sunbeam.

We walk our walk BECAUSE we are saved....

Exactly, Suzie.