I could easily be converted to Calvinism,[/quote} I do not think so Ben..you like being in charge too much.
if there was some way of understanding 2Pet2:20-22 to mean "THEY WERE NEVER SAVED"; but I know that in Greek it says "truly escaped through the saved-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but now really spiritually-turned-away from the faith".
Would you like to cite that source?
In Peter 2;20
Escaped is translated ...1) to flee from, escape (There is no TRULEY in the english or greek text)
Pollutions is translated 1) that which defiles, defilement
2) metaph., vices the foulness of which contaminates one in his intercourse with the ungodly mass of mankind
Knowledge is translated ... 1) precise and correct knowledge
a) used in the NT of the knowledge of things ethical and divine
There is nothing in this to indicate that they were saved.
In verse 21 the knowledge is defined this way
o become thoroughly acquainted with, to know thoroughly
to know accurately, know well
to know
to recognise
by sight, hearing, of certain signs, to perceive who a person is
to know i.e. to perceive
to know i.e. to find out, ascertain
to know i.e. to understand
Intellectual knowledge Ben There is nothing there of internalized knowledge .
They turned from the HOLY Commandment given to them..not from the grace of God given to them.
This is talking about the people that know the commandments and understand them and keep them by their will..
We see that all the time in the churches. People conform their behavior to the church and the people , but there was never an internal change. For a time they escape the draw of the world with self restraint.But eventually they can not longer do it.
At no time are these people called brethren, or beloved, they are never acknowledged as saved men.
Look at first Peter and see his theology of salvation
1Pe 1:1**
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2**
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pe 1:3**
Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4**
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5**
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Preservation of the Saints
2*Peter 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world,
&c.] The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said F17,
``he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled (amle ypwnjb) , "with the pollutions of the world", what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:''
these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have
through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
The Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, read, our Lord, and the latter leave out, "and Saviour"; by which "knowledge" is meant, not a spiritual experimental knowledge of Christ, for that is eternal life, the beginning, pledge, and earnest of it; but a notional knowledge of Christ, or a profession of knowledge of him, for it may be rendered "acknowledgment"; or rather the Gospel of Christ, which, being only notionally received, may have such an effect on men, as outwardly to reform their lives, at least in some instances, and for a while, in whose hearts it has no place. Now if, after all this knowledge and reformation,
they are again entangled therein;
in the pollutions of the world, in worldly lusts, which are as gins, pits and snares: and overcome;
by them, so as to be laden with them, and led away, and entirely governed and influenced by them:
If there was some way to understand "brethren if any of you wander from the faith" as NEVER SAVED.
That is not what James 5;19-20 say Ben (that was your attribute in Sept.on the Rejected Christ after Salvation thread Post 172 )
Jam 5:19**
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
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Jam 5:20**
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Not even close to your reading Ben
If there was a way to see that "begun by the Spirit, WERE running WELL" either WERE NOT SAVED, or "fallen from grace and severed from Christ" does NOT mean "fallen/severed". I would embrace Calvinism if the "turn-away-from-God" verses (like Heb3:12-14, 12:25, 2:1-2, 2Pet3:17, Col2:8, 2Cor11:3, 1Tim4:1) could be made to fit "you can never REALLY fall". I could accept Limited Atonement if I could see "Savior of the WORLD" or "propitiation to the SAVED AND the WHOLE WORLD", or "Savior of ALL MEN, ABOVE ALL (malista) believers", or "justification to ALL MEN" or "let WHOSOEVER WILL take of the water of life FREELY" -- as interpretable to "LIMITED". I could be "secure in my eternal salvation" if there was some way of taking all the WARNINGS and satisfactorily understanding them as EMPTY-BUGBEAR (Col1:23, 2:8, 2Pet1:10, 3:14,17, 1Tim4:1,16, 2Pet1:10-11, Heb2:1-3, 3:12-14, 4:1, 6:4-6, 10, 12:25, 2Cor11:3, 13:5), on and on and on.
There was a time a couple of days ago I would have looked those up.
But it is pretty clear to any that read that you have a hard time seeing what is there , preferring to render your own words and meanings.
Calvinists have failed to convince me of their way to understand all these verses, and more. We seem to have reached an IMPASS --- I post verses that speak of "Jesus died for ALL", you (Calvinists) say "it's only SOME"; I show verses that say "will" and "desire" and "want", you say "of COURSE they want evil they must be CHANGED FIRST"; but rebuke after rebuke is given --- to whom? To those that CANNOT repent? Does that make SENSE? Yes, to Calvinists, it does.
Ben we could have brought Jesus right here to the forum and like those that hung him...you would never believe the words from His mouth .
I do love you, RnMom; and you, Woody, and Frumanchu, and CDL, and ABIC, and Mounts, and Calgal and all my Calvinistic brothers and sisters; and Received and Romanbear and Sunbeam and all my OSNAS brethren. I desire for each of you exactly what I desire for me --- spiritual growth, Christlike maturity, that each of us be found in the center of His will. If we can agree on FELLOWSHIPPING with God, indwelt by Christ and the Holy Spirit, let's lay aside the differences and agree on love.
The most important aspect of our Christianity, at this juncture, is HARVEST.
Jesus said the most important thing was to preach the word Ben. What you are teaching is not the word. This is said to you in love, you can not teach what you do not know.
Some time ago I asked you if Jesus or the apostles were false teachers
Jhn 10:28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand
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Jhn 3:16**
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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Jhn 5:24**
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
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Jhn 6:27**
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Jhn 10:28**
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
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Jhn 11:25**
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
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Jhn 17:2**
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
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Rom 5:21**
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Rom 6:23**
For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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1Ti 1:16**
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
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1Jo 2:25**
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, [even] eternal life.
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1Jo 5:13**
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
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Jud 1:21**
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
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Jhn 3:15**
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
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Jhn 4:14**
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
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Jhn 5:24**
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
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Jhn 6:37**
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
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Jhn 17:12**
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
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Jhn 18:9**
That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
Rom 8:1**
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. **
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1Sa 2:9**
He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
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Psa 37:28**
For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
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Mar 13:22**
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
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Rom 5:2**
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
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Rom 8:1**
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
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Phl 1:6**
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
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2Th 2:13**
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
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1Pe 1:5**
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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Hbr 7:25**
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
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1Jo 2:19**
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
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1Jo 5:13**
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
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Jud 1:1**
Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:
**Deu 33:3**
Yea, he loved the people; all his saints [are] in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; [every one] shall receive of thy words.
**2Ti 1:12**
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
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Hbr 7:25**
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
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1Cr 10:13**
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
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