Can Christians lose there salvation?

[jatfla]

The study of rewards is huge. I believe Scripture uses language that we can understand (crowns, ruling cities, "be made a pillar", etc.) to describe rewards and honor that Jesus will give to those who faithfully serve and obey Him.

Some verses to check are:
1 Cor. 3:13-15;
2 Cor.5:10
Romans 14:10-12
Rev. 2 & 3; 22:12
Matt. 25 (the parable of the Talents)

I've included an article that I think is good and goes into more detail and explanation. If you're not a Dispensationalist, I think the article will still be profitable.

http://www.bible.org/docs/theology/esch/bema.htm

 

[Ben johnson]

In Col3:24, the "INHERITANCE" is called "THE REWARD".

I would be interested in hearing how you "accomodate" 2Jn1:7-9 in your views. If one "goes-too-far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, so as to NOT-HAVE-GOD", how is that person still saved? I don't think one can contend "THEY WERE NEVER SAVED"; in verse 1-2 John writes: "truth which abides in us and will be w8ith us forever"; further, in verse 4 he says: "I was very glad to find some of your children walking in truth"...

But the WARNING seems clear: "Many deceivers have gone into the world ...watch yourselves that you don't lose what you have accomplished; but that you may receive full reward. Anyone who GOES TOO FAR and does not abide in Christ's teachings, HAS NOT GOD." How can those NOT-HAVING-GOD still be saved? How could John have NOT meant that it was POSSIBLE for true children to be deceived into GOING TOO FAR?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

The true question is Did Christ do everything on the Cross or not?

Is His Sacrific suffience for are weakness....

According to the Father it is.

Or even better yet When the Holy Spirit Seals us in Christ its not good enough...maybe god isn't all powerful to do what he says

 

[Luchnia]

Not only can a Christian lose their salvation and fall to become a reprobate sinner, they can become apostate to the point salvation cannot be regained just as it is written in God's word.

Word up!

 

[Carrye]

God wishes all to be with Him, and certainly does not will a person to be away from Him eternally, yet the sad truth is that this certainly can and does happen. I don't think any of you would disagree with me on this.

All are redeemed, not all are saved. If one has faith, but does nothing with it, that faith is dead. Does that mean that faith never existed? Of course not, but for all practical (and salvific) purposes, it is now useless.

Jesus gives us many parables about using the gifts (and faith is a gift) we are given. Consider the parable of the talents, as but one example.

If a person had a quarter, but dropped it on the street, he no longer has it. He ONCE had, but does NO LONGER. What would it take for the person to get his quarter back? He would have to make a choice, a decision, to go back and get it. This is the same as what is required when faith in God is lost - a decision must be made to go back. Without this decison (action), there would be no salvation.

 

[Sharky]

So what you guys are saying is the when you give your life to Jesus and get saved, you have to do a bunch of stuff to meet His criteria in order to get saved.

Uh huh. Sure...

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

1 sam 2:6-8 The LORD killeth and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. 7 The LORD maketh poor, and maketh the rich: he bringeth low, and lifted up 8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of earthare the LORDS, and he hath set the world upon them.

 

[Yukerboy]

"If one has faith, but does nothing with it, that faith is dead. Does that mean that faith never existed? Of course not, but for all practical (and salvific) purposes, it is now useless."

It never existed.

Faith itself is a gift from God. God's gifts are irrevocable. Same with His calling. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but the gift of God is eternal life. Seeing as God's gifts are irrevocable and that eternal life (salvation) is a gift, then you can never lose your salvation....of course, that is just according to the Bible.

Yuke

 

[Ben johnson]

So what you guys are saying is the when you give your life to Jesus and get saved, you have to do a bunch of stuff to meet His criteria in order to get saved.

NNnnnnot exactly. Jesus says, "BELIEF saves you" (John3:16); but in context, Jesus makes it clear tiat it's not any KIND of belief that saves! It is believe that causes:

4. Humbled as children (Matt18:3-4)
3. Repentant (Lk13:3)
2. DOING God's will (Matt7:21)
1. BORN AGAIN (Jn3:3)

Notice that EACH of these is written: "Unless _____, you will NOT go to Heaven!"

I reversed the order, because "BORN AGAIN" is the ONE under which all the others lie. When one is "BORN AGAIN", he or she receives Jesus (Jn1:12), is IMMERSED/UNITED/BURIED into Jesus' death AND resurrection (Rm6), and is immersed in the Spirit (Matt3:11). A "new creation" (2Cor5:17). "Crucified with Christ, no longer US living but CHRIST lives in us" (Gal2:20).

BUT --- all of this is FOUNDED on our BELIEF...

Faith itself is a gift from God.

There are different KINDS of faith. There is a MEASURE of faith given to each man (Rom12:3), there is the SPIRITUAL-GIFT-FAITH given to ONE believer and not to ANOTHER believer (1Cor12:9). So that we're clear, let's define "SAVING-FAITH", as the same as "SAVING-BELIEF" --- interchangeable. Paul says "saving-faith comes NOT from God but from HEARING! (Rom10:17) "For with the HEART man BELIEVES (saving-faith), resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation." Rom10:9-10.

Look at Acts 2:37 for an example of how they HEARD, were CONVICTED (saving-faith was born in their hearts), believed and were saved.

God's gifts are irrevocable. Same with His calling.

Rom11:29. Irrevocable ("without repentance") from GOD'S direction; but what about from OUR direction? If our CALLING and ELECTION are determined by God ("Calvinism"), then can you explain Peter's words? ""He who LACKS these qualities is ...shortsighted, having FORGOTTEN former purification from sins (know any way of FORMER PURIFICATION unless they had BEEN saved?) from sins. THEREFORE, brethren, be all the more diligent to MAKE CERTAIN of your CALLING and ELECTION; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; and in THIS way the EISODOS-GATES of Heaven will be provided to you!" 2:1:9-11

If Peter had believed in UNILATERAL-ELECTION, then why would he say: "MAKE CERTAIN of your CALLING and your ELECTION, that the gates of Heaven BE PROVIDED to you!"? The answer is in the context of the rest of Scripture. Not that the TRAITS listed earlier in the chapter will save us, bt mirroring passages like 2Cor13:5: "Examine yourselves to SEE if you are IN the faith..."

Seeing as God's gifts are irrevocable and that eternal life (salvation) is a gift, then you can never lose your salvation....of course, that is just according to the Bible.

Can we agree on what salvation IS? Salvation, succinctly defined, is FELLOWSHIP with GOD, CHRIST, and the SPIRIT. Fellowship, which is indwelling. Through --- our BELIEF. If our salvation is so unforfeitable, then why does Jude declare (21)"Keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Christ towards salvation". Why does Paul say things like: "He will present us before God holy and blameless and beyond repute, IF INDEED WE CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT MOVED AWAY from the hope of the Gospel" (1Tim1:1 says the HOPE is JESUS --- Paul says in Col1:23 "if we are NOT MOVED AWAY FROM JESUS!)? And in 1Tim4:1,16: "The Spirit explicitly says that in later times many will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. Pay CLOSE ATTENTION to yourself and to your teaching, PERSEVERE in these things; for as you DO you will save yourself and those who hear you!"

Do you really see ANY of them espousing "never-fall-from-salvation"?

You mentioned "SEAL"; the seal, of course, is the HOLY SPIRIT; please look at Eph1:13, and tell me if the SEAL is not founded on our BELIEF. The question becomes --- "if salvation is FELLOWSHIP, founded on BELIEF, can someone CEASE TO BELIEVE?" Scripturally, the answer is "YES".

The GIFT of salvation may well be "irrevocable by God", but if we are decieved by sin (James1:14-16), if we are hardened by deceitful sin (Heb3:12-14) into FALLING AWAY from the LIVING GOD, if we are "taken captive by deceitful men and empty doctrines" (Col2:8, Pet3:17), we very much can "stumble/ptaio/become-wretched".

Diligence in salvation is required; not that we DO GOOD WORKS, but that we ABIDE IN HIM...

"Abide in Me, and I (will abide) in you; any branch that does NOT abide is cut off ...and cast into the fire!" Jn15:6

 

[Yukerboy]

I'm a newbie, so I don't know how to do the quote thing. Excuse my ignorance.

"NNnnnnot exactly. Jesus says, "BELIEF saves you" (John3:16); but in context, Jesus makes it clear tiat it's not any KIND of belief that saves! It is believe that causes:

4. Humbled as children (Matt18:3-4)
3. Repentant (Lk13:3)
2. DOING God's will (Matt7:21)
1. BORN AGAIN (Jn3:3)

Notice that EACH of these is written: "Unless _____, you will NOT go to Heaven!"

I reversed the order, because "BORN AGAIN" is the ONE under which all the others lie. When one is "BORN AGAIN", he or she receives Jesus (Jn1:12), is IMMERSED/UNITED/BURIED into Jesus' death AND resurrection (Rm6), and is immersed in the Spirit (Matt3:11). A "new creation" (2Cor5:17). "Crucified with Christ, no longer US living but CHRIST lives in us" (Gal2:20).

BUT --- all of this is FOUNDED on our BELIEF..."

Jesus said "...whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life". Matthew 18:3-4 talks of a change being made. Luke 13:3 says you must repent. Matthew 7:21 says he who does the will of the Father. John 3:3 says you must be born again.

We all agree on that. The question is how does a man become born again, repentant, do God's will and be hunbled as children.

We are totally depraved. We cannot come to choose God on our own. No one comes to Christ except those who the Father draws to Him. Without Christ we can do nothing.

All of this is founded on our faith, which is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8-9.

Now, saving faith itself is a gift from God and must come from God alone. If it is not, then it is a work, and we all agree that works of man has never been able to save him. To be able to have faith, a man's nature must change and for that to happen comes from God alone.

If our CALLING and ELECTION are determined by God ("Calvinism"), then can you explain Peter's words? ""He who LACKS these qualities is ...shortsighted, having FORGOTTEN former purification from sins(know any way of FORMER PURIFICATION unless they had BEEN saved?) from sins.

Yes, they have forgotten that they have been purified through God, but that did not make them lose salvation.

"f our salvation is so unforfeitable, then why does Jude declare (21)"Keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Christ towards salvation"."

Wait for the mercy of Christ? Keep yourselves in the love of God? This shows me that salvation can NOT be forfeited.

Why does Paul say things like: "He will present us before God holy and blameless and beyond repute, IF INDEED WE CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT MOVED AWAY from the hope of the Gospel"

Exactly. Amen. If we have no faith, we won't be saved. Not only that, we never were saved.

"And in 1Tim4:1,16: "The Spirit explicitly says that in later times many will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. Pay CLOSE ATTENTION to yourself and to your teaching, PERSEVERE in these things; for as you DO you will save yourself and those who hear you!"

To fall away from the faith is to fall away from the doctrines taught. It is not to fall away from salvation. If a person falls away from the faith, they have never been saved.

"Diligence in salvation is required; not that we DO GOOD WORKS, but that we ABIDE IN HIM..."

Absolutely, thus the perseverence of the saints.

Yuke

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

NNnnnnot exactly. Jesus says, "BELIEF saves you" (John3:16); but in context, Jesus makes it clear tiat it's not any KIND of belief that saves! It is believe that causes:

4. Humbled as children (Matt18:3-4)
3. Repentant (Lk13:3)
2. DOING God's will (Matt7:21)
1. BORN AGAIN (Jn3:3)

Notice that EACH of these is written: "Unless _____, you will NOT go to Heaven!"

I reversed the order, because "BORN AGAIN" is the ONE under which all the others lie. When one is "BORN AGAIN", he or she receives Jesus (Jn1:12), is IMMERSED/UNITED/BURIED into Jesus' death AND resurrection (Rm6), and is immersed in the Spirit (Matt3:11). A "new creation" (2Cor5:17). "Crucified with Christ, no longer US living but CHRIST lives in us" (Gal2:20).

BUT --- all of this is FOUNDED on our BELIEF...
There are different KINDS of faith. There is a MEASURE of faith given to each man (Rom12:3), there is the SPIRITUAL-GIFT-FAITH given to ONE believer and not to ANOTHER believer (1Cor12:9). So that we're clear, let's define "SAVING-FAITH", as the same as "SAVING-BELIEF" --- interchangeable. Paul says "saving-faith comes NOT from God but from HEARING! (Rom10:17) "For with the HEART man BELIEVES (saving-faith), resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation." Rom10:9-10.

BUT EPH 2:8 For by grace are ye saved.... it is a gift of God.


...........Gotta Go back to the work shop...............

Look at Acts 2:37 for an example of how they HEARD, were CONVICTED (saving-faith was born in their hearts), believed and were saved.
Rom11:29. Irrevocable ("without repentance") from GOD'S direction; but what about from OUR direction? If our CALLING and ELECTION are determined by God ("Calvinism"), then can you explain Peter's words? ""He who LACKS these qualities is ...shortsighted, having FORGOTTEN former purification from sins(know any way of FORMER PURIFICATION unless they had BEEN saved?) from sins. THEREFORE, brethren, be all the more diligent to MAKE CERTAIN of your CALLING and ELECTION; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; and in THIS way the EISODOS-GATES of Heaven will be provided to you!" 2:1:9-11

???????? where is this

If Peter had believed in UNILATERAL-ELECTION, then why would he say: "MAKE CERTAIN of your CALLING and your ELECTION, that the gates of Heaven BE PROVIDED to you!"? The answer is in the context of the rest of Scripture. Not that the TRAITS listed earlier in the chapter will save us, bt mirroring passages like 2Cor13:5: "Examine yourselves to SEE if you are IN the faith..."

Whers does one get faith from hearing romans something but were at before that Galation 5:22... faith is part of the fruit from the Spirit

So the Holy Spirit gives us faith to believe since
we cannot searcheth or seeketh God Romans 3:10-11

Can we agree on what salvation IS? Salvation, succinctly defined, is FELLOWSHIP with GOD, CHRIST, and the SPIRIT. Fellowship, which is indwelling. Through --- our BELIEF.

If in 1Cor 12:13 after belief we are baptized into Christ body so if we do not obey we go to hell?
HOW COULD CHRIST SEND HIMSELF TO HELL SINCE HE IS PERFECT?

If our salvation is so unforfeitable, then why does Jude declare (21)"Keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of Christ towards salvation". Why does Paul say things like: "He will present us before God holy and blameless and beyond repute, IF INDEED WE CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT MOVED AWAY from the hope of the Gospel" (1Tim1:1 says the HOPE is JESUS --- Paul says in Col1:23 "if we are NOT MOVED AWAY FROM JESUS!)? And in 1Tim4:1,16: "The Spirit explicitly says that in later times many will FALL AWAY FROM THE FAITH, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. Pay CLOSE ATTENTION to yourself and to your teaching, PERSEVERE in these things; for as you DO you will save yourself and those who hear you!"

there are three different tenses of Salvations.......

#1 Past eph 1:4

#2 present alot of above verses...................where Christ gives his sons room to grow thru mistakes after he gave us the tools to succeed and then the Father chasteneth HIS SONS for failing to straighten them out Hebrews 12:3-11

#3 Future 1 thes 5:23


this is your mistake look up verses? 1 sam 2:6-8, Deut 32:39

GOD"S is all powerful isn't he

Do you really see ANY of them espousing "never-fall-from-salvation"?

You mentioned "SEAL"; the seal, of course, is the HOLY SPIRIT; please look at Eph1:13, and tell me if the SEAL is not founded on our BELIEF. The question becomes --- "if salvation is FELLOWSHIP, founded on BELIEF, can someone CEASE TO BELIEVE?" Scripturally, the answer is "YES".

The GIFT of salvation may well be "irrevocable by God", but if we are decieved by sin (James1:14-16), if we are hardened by deceitful sin (Heb3:12-14) into FALLING AWAY from the LIVING GOD, if we are "taken captive by deceitful men and empty doctrines" (Col2:8, Pet3:17), we very much can "stumble/ptaio/become-wretched".

Diligence in salvation is required; not that we DO GOOD WORKS, but that we ABIDE IN HIM...

"Abide in Me, and I (will abide) in you; any branch that does NOT abide is cut off ...and cast into the fire!" Jn15:6

1 cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver and precoius stones, wood hat stumbble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort [of quality] it is.14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall recieve a reward .15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

.....................Go back to drawning board...............................

 

[Ben johnson]

I suppose with a thread 40 pages long, I can hardly expect everyone to go back to previous pages; each of these questions has been answered. But no harm in repeating, huh?

Hi, Yukerboy! Welcome to the boards! You can do the "quote-thing" by just typing [ quote]what you want quoted[/ quote] (but type it WITHOUT the spaces). OR, you can go to your profile, and select "wysiwyg" (Erwin switched on everyone's a couple days back, so if you see a TOOLBAR above every reply box, you can find the "QUOTE" button --- and then type in between the brackets...)

We are totally depraved. We cannot come to choose God on our own. No one comes to Christ except those who the Father draws to Him. Without Christ we can do nothing.

There are THREE separate and DISTINCT views of OSAS --- yours is "CALVINISM"; also called "predestined-election", "limited atonement", "irresistible grace". Romans 1:19-20 is one passage that firmly declares that EACH person has God REVEALED to him, he is WITHOUT EXCUSE. Passages like Roman 5:18 & 17 show that "justification CAME to ALL MEN, in exactly the same quantity that condemnation came; but verse 17 states that "only they who RECEIEVE the abundance of grace and who RECEIVE the gift of righteousness will reign with Jesus".

2Peter3:9 says "God does not BOULEMAI-DECREE any to condemnation but CHOREO-MAKES-ROOM for ALL to come to repentance." Calvinism asserts that mankind is too depraved to EVER receive Christ; and God saves only those He has PRE-CHOSEN. But this means that GOD, even if by IGNORING the reprobate, CHOOSES them for HELL! There's no way around this; if the only way to be saved is His FORCEFUL IMPOSING OF FAITH, then God SAVES some, and God CONDEMNS the REST. This violates Scripture all over the place...

All of this is founded on our faith, which is a gift of God. Ephesians 2:8-9.

Let's look at Eph2:8-9 --- what is the SUBJECT? There's only one subject. Subject is: "SALVATION". And there are five phrases that MODIFY the subject:

1. (salvation) BY GRACE
2. (salvation) THROUGH FAITH ("dia pistis" is a prepositional phrase, not a second subject)
3. (salvation) is not of yourselves
4. (salvation) is the gift of God
5. (salvation) is not as the result of works.

You simply cannot get away from the clear words of Scripture, "saving-faith is from MAN, towards GOD."

Now, saving faith itself is a gift from God and must come from God alone. If it is not, then it is a work, and we all agree that works of man has never been able to save him. To be able to have faith, a man's nature must change and for that to happen comes from God alone.

Total depravity is part-n-parcel of CALVINISM. But is it SCRIPTURAL? Romans 3 is not even ORIGINAL PAULINE; it is merely quoting Psalm 14, and Psalm 53. In context, it's an exaggeration. LAMENTATION, in other words. "Oh woe, none seek after God, they all seem to be evil..." But look at Jeremiah 29:11-14: "You will SEEK Me and you will FIND Me, when you SEARCH with all your HEART! I WILL BE FOUND BY YOU!" Is Jeremiah WRONG? Of course not. Read another verse Calvinists use to support "total depravity", Ezk36:26-27 ("I will remove their hearts of stone and put a heart of flesh in them, and they will follow Me...") BUT --- read the SAME passage in Ezk11:19-20; now read verses 18, and 21, and tell me if God does it WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT --- He does NOT. Totally free will.

To say "SAVING-FAITH would be a WORK" --- why? How? Jesus stands against that: "This is the WORK of GOD, that you BELIEVE in Whom God has sent." Jn6:29 Faith comes from our own heart's conviction (see the example in Acts 2:37), and it is GOD'S work not OURS. Faith-being-God's-work does NOT remove it from being our DECISION. And our volition in RECEIVING the gift of grace changes nothing of the gift --- it remains, "ALL OF HIM, and NONE OF US". Given out of His love (grace), received by our belief (faith)...

To fall away from the faith is to fall away from the doctrines taught. It is not to fall away from salvation. If a person falls away from the faith, they have never been saved.

Can't be true. Look at Gal3:1-3, and 5:1-7. How do you rewrite "YOU WERE RUNNING WELL", into "NEVER-SAVED"? Do you think they COULD have been running well but NEVER SAVED? Really? "You WERE running well; who has bewitched you, who SAW Jesus? You BEGAN with the Spirit but now return to WORKS? You are SEVERED from Christ, you are FALLEN FROM GRACE!" Can you even begin to fit that into "OSAS"? I don't think you can. Unsaved were NEVER "running-well". And "fallen/severed" can ONLY be unsaved.

So many passages speak to the SAVED. Read James 5:19-20 ("BETHREN, if any of YOU wander from the truth, and another leads him back, let the other know HE HAS SAVED A SOUL FROM DEATH!")

Yes, they have forgotten that they have been purified through God, but that did not make them lose salvation.

I'm afraid not. 2Pet1:9=11 says "he who has FORGOTTEN, has STUMBLED" --- the word, is "PTAIO"--- become WRETCHED. It says, "be diligent about your calling and election, THAT THE GATES OF HEAVEN be provided." This presents as MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE --- that is, the eisodos-gates of Heaven will be provided in NO OTHER WAY.

Please look at 2Tim2:11-13; do you contend that we can be FAITHLESSLY-SAVED? Or is that passage "HYPEBOLE, he WROTE it but didn't mean that it could really HAPPEN"? Now read 2Pet3:17. Can we be UNSTEADFASTLY SAVED? Can we? Or is this yet again another passage that is HYPERBOLE, "bugbear", fatherly warnings against that which CANNOT happen?

"Diligence in salvation is required; not that we DO GOOD WORKS, but that we ABIDE IN HIM..."

Absolutely, thus the perseverence of the saints.

Read the entire chapter 10 of Hebrews. Do you think he didn't really MEAN that someone could "trample underfoot Jesus, regard the blood by which he WAS SANCTIFIED as unclean, and insult the Spirit"? Can you pretend that there is ANOTHER way to be sanctified BESIDES salvation? 10:26 uses "epignosis TRUE-SAVED-KNOWLEDGE". Read 10:35 ("do not throw away your confidence") --- if you read it with Heb10:19 & 6:19, you realize he's challenging you to NOT THROW AWAY JESUS! Then, 10:36: "You have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive the Promise." How about Heb12:25?

"By YOUR endurance you will save YOUR souls" --- Jesus, in Luke 21:19.

There is nothing about "God chooses only SOME" in the Scripture. Read Matt22:2-14, and you see that EVERYONE is invited, but only those who COME and clothe themselves with righteousness become the chosen. How can verse 14 ("for MANY are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN"), mean anything BUT "there are many CALLED who are NOT chosen"? Where is the predestination?

Where is the predestination in Rev22:17? In John10:9? ("Let O-THELOS-whosoever-WILL take of the water of life FREELY". "If TIS-ANYONE enters through Me, he will come in and go out and receive pasture AND BE SAVED!")

Where is the "limited atonement" in 1Jn2:2? ("And He is the propitiation-appeasement for sins, not only US-SAVED, but also the HOLOS-KOSMOS-ENTIRE-WORLD!") You can't paint that as "oh he meant only SOME of the world". You can't change Rom5:18 to "PAS-ANTHROPOS-ALL-HUMANS" were condemned, but "PAS-ANTHROPOS-SOME-were-saved"! Pas Anthropos means ALL MEN, in BOTH PARTS of the verse.

PS: If we are PREDESTINED, chosen ALREADY by God, then what is the CROSS? The Cross accomplished nothing, for we were already CHOSEN, right? The Cross is therefore NOT effective, but DEMONSTRATIVE. In other words, "Crucifixion ineffective, mere pageantry". But if we HAVE free will, then (and only then) is the Cross EFFECTIVE; "God gave His Son ...that whosoever BELIEVES should not perish but have eternal life." Effective!

 

[Ben johnson]

???????? where is this

2Pet1:9-11

Where does one get faith from hearing Romans something, but were at before that Galation 5:22... faith is part of the fruit from the Spirit

That says "faithfulness". But there are different KINDS of faith; we hafta define, "faith-to-SALVATION". Identically, BELIEF. Please read 2Tim2:11-13, and tell me if "faithlessness" is not POSSIBLE. And 2Pet3:17, tell me if "unsteadfast" is not possible (unsteadfastness IS faithlessness).

Besides --- the "fruits of the Spirit" accompany the SAVED; if one is DECEIVED and becomes FAITHLESS/UNBELIEVING, will he still have the fruits of the Spirit"? No. The Spirit is given as an "earnest", unTO eternal life (not "until"); please read Eph4:30 & Heb10:29, and tell me if the Spirit cannot be "grieved/insulted"? Will the Spirit STAY if "grieved/insulted"? The Spirit indwells the BELIEVER; if that person becomes apostate, UNBELIEVER, will the Spirit still indwell?

So the Holy Spirit gives us faith to believe since we cannot searcheth or seeketh God Romans 3:10-11

See my comment in the previous post about Romans3; it is not "doctrinal dictate", it is "lamentation" --- exaggeration. You can't have it both ways --- either FAITH IS INSTILLED/INSTALLED by God, or "faith comes from HEARING; for with the HEART man BELIEVES." (Rom10:17,10) Which is it? Did Paul mean what he said?

1Cor3:12ff mirrors 1Pet1:7 ("In this you greatly rejoice, though destressed by TRIALS, that the proof of your faith -- more precious than gold which is refined by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.") The fire of trials will test our works; and if our works are burned up, we learn to produce better works through the fire of trials. ("saved yet so as through fire").

James speaks of "trials" in ch1, and "he who perseveres and is approved (passes the TRIALS-TEST) will receive the crown of life, which Jesus has promised to those who love Him." But read James1:14-16, and tell me if BELOVED BRETHREN cannot be deceived even to DEATH? "Each is tempted when he is carried away by his own lust; then lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death. Do not be deceved BELOVED BRETHREN". James was undeniably talking to SAVED-BELOVED-BRETHREN; do you think he didn't mean what he said? Or was he speking "hyperbole/bugbear" --- empty-warning-you-can't-REALLY-be-deceived? Or is he taling TO the saved ABOUT the unsaved? How do you bend this to "OSAS"? Can you?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

THE COUNSEL [DECREE] OF GOD

determinative will of God
TIMES acts ....17:30
SEASONS ...acts1:7
CHOSE SOME... ROMANS 9:14-19

PERMISSIVE WILL OF GOD

ALLOWED GENTILES TO GO THEIR OWN WAY
ACTS 14:16

DESIROUS WILL OF GOD
SALVATION IS FOR ALL MEN ....1 TIM 2:4

 

[Ben johnson]

Hello, "ABrethren". You seem to indicate that God has "multiple wills"; I do agree, there is DECREE, and there is DESIRE. Please help me to understand --- we agree on the 1Tim2:4 verse, that God DESIRES all men to be saved. Do you know how that "meshes" with the Calvinistic idea that "only a FEW are CHOSEN"? Is God's desire for the REST of men (those "unchosen"), is God's desire, insincere? CAN God BE insincere?

I've dealt with Romans 9 before (in this thread, happy to do so again if requested). What I can't find, anywhere in Scripture, is the idea of "God DECREEING any one person's salvation". Do you (or anybody else) have any verses to that effect?

Thanx!

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

THE COUNSEL [DECREE] OF GOD

determinative will of God
TIMES acts ....17:30
SEASONS ...acts1:7
CHOSE SOME... ROMANS 9:14-19

PERMISSIVE WILL OF GOD

ALLOWED GENTILES TO GO THEIR OWN WAY
ACTS 14:16

DESIROUS WILL OF GOD
SALVATION IS FOR ALL MEN ....1 TIM 2:4

Act 14:16-17
romans 1:20

Man by his self will always chose wrong Romans 3:10-11, Gen 6:5, Gen 8:21

which means is why does God save any?

1 sam 2:6-8 good verse on God
Duet 32:39

 

[Ben johnson]

Hi, ABIC, thanx for your reply.

Did you read my post#392? You hold to "TOTAL-DEPRAVITY". If you are right about "NO ONE seeks God", then how does that allow Jeremiah 29:12-14?

Man by his self will always chose wrong Gen 6:5

You miss one little thing here; was EVERY MAN bent on evil? Wasn't there ...ONE... who was righteous? "But Noah found favor in the eyes of God. Noah was a righteous man, with integrity..." Gen6:8-9 Was Noah righteouse BECAUSE HE FOUND FAVOR? Or did he find favor with God BECAUSE HE WAS RIGHTEOUS? Which is the CAUSE, and which is the EFFECT? It seems clear that God was pleased with Noah, BECAUSE OF HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS (and not vice-versa), doesn't it?

You quote from Deut32; have you ever read chapter 30? "I have set before you life and prosperity, and death and adversity, in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering. But if your heart turns away and you will not obey but are drawn to other gods, I declare to you that you will perish. I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse; so choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendents, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and by holding fast to Him. For this is your life and the length of your days..."

In that passage, tell me honestly --- do you see PREDESTINATION, or FREE WILL? It seems to me that "righteousness or evil has ALWAYS been a choice"...

We have IDOLS, today; any THING, or any ONE, who garners more of our attention than does God, is an idol. How is there "no free choice"? (Calvinists claim that there IS free choice, but the HEART freely chooses its NATURE; that isn't free. If a "GOD-IGNORED-HEART" can only-choose-EVIL, and only a "GOD-ENFORCED-HEART" can choose righteousness, then there IS NO FREE CHOICE!)

Again, please help me to understand --- if you believe in "PREDESTINATION", then how can God "desire salvation for all men"? Is His desire for the "unchosen", INSINCERE?

Thanx again...

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Hi, ABIC, thanx for your reply.

Did you read my post#392? You hold to "TOTAL-DEPRAVITY". If you are right about "NO ONE seeks God", then how does that allow Jeremiah 29:12-14?

Israel was His people as a nation even though they sinned ..Ro 9:4

You miss one little thing here; was EVERY MAN bent on evil? Wasn't there ...ONE... who was righteous? "But Noah found favor in the eyes of God. Noah was a righteous man, with integrity..." Gen6:8-9 Was Noah righteouse BECAUSE HE FOUND FAVOR? Or did he find favor with God BECAUSE HE WAS RIGHTEOUS?

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justified the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness...

So Noah Believe God.. plain and simple

then go to Romans 8:29-30

Which is the CAUSE, and which is the EFFECT? It seems clear that God was pleased with Noah, BECAUSE OF HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS (and not vice-versa), doesn't it? NOPE

You quote from Deut32; have you ever read chapter 30? "I have set before you life and prosperity, and death and adversity, in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the Lord your God may bless you in the land where you are entering. But if your heart turns away and you will not obey but are drawn to other gods, I declare to you that you will perish. I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse; so choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendents, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and by holding fast to Him. For this is your life and the length of your days..."

In that passage, tell me honestly --- do you see PREDESTINATION, or FREE WILL? It seems to me that "righteousness or evil has ALWAYS been a choice"...

HOW ABOUT THE GENTILES? during that time how many where saved ....very few......

We have IDOLS, today; any THING, or any ONE, who garners more of our attention than does God, is an idol. How is there "no free choice"? (Calvinists claim that there IS free choice, but the HEART freely chooses its NATURE; that isn't free. If a "GOD-IGNORED-HEART" can only-choose-EVIL, and only a "GOD-ENFORCED-HEART" can choose righteousness, then there IS NO FREE CHOICE!)

Again, please help me to understand --- if you believe in "PREDESTINATION", then how can God "desire salvation for all men"? Is His desire for the "unchosen", INSINCERE?

Thanx again...

Titus 2:11 For the [saving] grace of God that bringeth salvation hath available to all believers.

like wanting[disireouswill]will to have a candy bar BUT his [determitive will] says I need a salad.... that easy

 

[Ken]

Is God's desire for all to be saved sincere in the Calvinistic scheme? Yes it is, for it reflects God's moral and/or His preceptive will. God takes no pleasure in the death of the ungodly..... on the other hand, there are instances of things that God wills which have and will in fact take place, the coming of Christ, the cross-work of Christ, the return of Christ, etc., these are examples of God's decreetive will..... they will and have inevitably occured... at any rate, God, in the general call to belief, commands all to believe in Him..... (Mat 22:14 NNAS) "For many are called, but few are chosen."

see the excellent article by John Piper on this aspect of the two wills in God at http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html

Probably the force of the objection is most centered on ability to do what is commanded... if God commands men everywhere to repent and believe on him, then, so Arminianism/Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism tells us, there has to be the ability for all to come, else there is no justice in the command to do what one cannot, in lieu of their very sinful nature, in fact do... but is this so? Do we have other biblical examples of commands to do what in fact we, by our nature, are not able to do? The answer is an unequivocal yes.... God commands us to love the Lord our God with all our mind, soul and strength (Mtt. 22:37ff).... yet who can do this perfectly? Answer: none. God calls everyone to be perfect as He is perfect. (Mat 5:48 NNAS) "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Anyone care to claim that ability? I hope not. ""You shall be perfect" translates two Greek words: a future imperative (esesthe) expressing a command, and the word teleioi, denoting "end," "goal," "outcome." The idea of gaining maturity does not fully interpret this quotation from Lev. 19:2. Perfection is attainable only when evil is vanquished and the kingdom citizen is glorified. His present life ought to exhibit maturity and progress toward that ultimate goal of perfection. Whatever the interpretation, the demand for perfection is not to be weakened. Rather, Matthew magnifies the fact that the righteousness demanded of kingdom citizens cannot be attained on the basis of merit, but must be given through mercy. This statement summarizes vv. 17-48." (Criswell, BSB) The fact is, we are commanded to not sin, ever. But we do. So the command to believe is no different then these other commands, despite our ability or inability to comply.

Further, Arminainism does not escape its own charges against Calvinistic/Augustinian soteriology, here's how:

The Arminian will grant that God knows the future perfectly and exhaustively. So the Lord knows who will choose Him. Yet neither the Lord nor the Arminian thinks that just because this is so, that those who will come to Him is already known and set before time ever began, that this is therefore a reason to not evangelize others, or tell them of Christ's command to believe on Him and be saved. Does the Arminian know who will in the future choose Christ? No. So they preach to everyone God's command to repent and believe. So is their preaching in this way mean that the command to believe (which will inevitably fall on deaf ears) also means that the command to come is somehow deprecitive of God's character in some way? Of course not. So too in the Calvinistic scheme, we believe God knows those whom are His, and He knows this from all eternity. But it doesn't follow from this fact that the command to everyone to believe is somehow insincere, any more so than it is in the Arminian scheme.

Blessings

 

[Luchnia]

Great post, everyone. It sure does clear up much and helps to sharpen us all. It is evident by the Word of The Spirit that not only can man lose salvation, many have over time. We can see that man can even fall into apostasy beyond the point of return and be doomed to eternal torments.

Word up!