Can Christians go to hell?

[DeaconDean]

Jason,
You see, you and I have different opinions on who is saved and who is not. Especially when Mt. 7 and 13 are concerned. You say they are saved, and for some unknown reason, they are not known by Jesus and therefore rejected and sent to the lake of fire. I say they were never saved to begin with. And that is why Jesus don't know them.

You also quoted from Eze. 18:24. Let me show what John Gill commented on this:

"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness,.... This is to be understood, not of a truly righteous man; for no man can be so denominated from his own righteousness; but from the righteousness and obedience of Christ; and such a man cannot turn from his righteousness; for that is the righteousness of God, and can never be lost; and is an everlasting one, and will always endure; and with which eternal life is inseparably connected: but this is to be interpreted of one that is reckoned so from his own righteousness, what he himself has done, and not from another, from the righteousness of Christ, which he has wrought out; he is one that is righteous in his own esteem, and in the account of others; who is outwardly righteous before men; who trusts in himself that he is righteous, and trusts to his own righteousness; see Ezekiel 33:13; whose righteousness is not an evangelical one, but either a ceremonial righteousness, or at most a mere moral one, consisting of some negative holiness, and a few moral performances, as appears from Ezekiel 18:5; and from such a righteousness as this a man may turn, commit iniquity, sin and die; see 2 Peter 2:20; and is no proof or instance of the apostasy of real saints, true believers, or truly righteous men; besides, this man is represented as a transgressor, or "prevaricator", as the word signifies; a hypocrite, a man destitute of the truth of grace, and of true righteousness:"

Source

And Matthew Henry agrees:

"He never was in sincerity a righteous man (as appears by that of the apostle, 1 John ii. 19, If they had been of us, they would, no doubt, have continued with us), but he passed for a righteous man. He had the denomination and all the external marks of a righteous man; he thought himself one, and others thought him one. But he throws of his profession, leaves his first love, disowns and forsakes the truth and ways of God, and so turns away from his righteousness as one sick of it, and now shows, what he always had, a secret aversion to it; and, having turned away from his righteousness, he commits iniquity, grows loose, and profane, and sensual, intemperate, unjust, and, in short, does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does; for, when the unclean spirit recovers his possession of the heart, he brings with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself and they enter in and dwell there, Luke xi. 26."

Source

So I say that the verse you used show that these individuals were never truly saved to begin with.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

"If we say we do not bear the guilt [after-life consequence] of sin [if or when we do sin], we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8) (New English Translation).*
or if you were to read the Expanded Bible, that says,

"If we say we ·have no sin [or have no sin nature; or are not guilty of sinning [in the sense that we have no sin when we do sin]], we are ·fooling [deceiving] ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8) (Expanded Bible).*
Note: The blue words within the brackets are my further explanation to the above verses.

I'm sorry to disagree with you but...

"ἐὰν εἴπωμεν ὅτι ἁμαρτίαν οὐκ ἔχομεν, ἑαυτοὺς πλανῶμεν καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἡμῖν." -1 Jn. 1:8 GNT

Key word: "ἁμαρτίαν"

Simple meaning, sin. But in particular it is in the accusative case. Which means, "a principle or cause of sin; proneness to sin, sinful propensity.

" It is possible that 1 John was meant to be a cover letter for the Gospel of John. The Gnostic heresy of the first century forms the background for both books. The Gospel has an evangelistic thrust, while 1 John is written for believers (i.e., discipleship)."

Source

Yes, Gnosticism was a problem, but I believe the biggest problem at the time of this writing was also "antinomianism".

I think you need to learn some Greek and not rely so much on "modern translations".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Even from the Greek text, we are able to learn that the "believers" John wrote to, could and did sin. We, as Christians, can and do sin also. None of us are perfect...yet.

Sin, deceives us. (ἁμαρτίαν...πλανῶμεν) That is why it is written "If we say we have no sin" it is because it deceives us, yes even us Christians.

And that is why John went further to say:

"He that committeth sin is of the devil" -1 Jn. 3:8

John Gill again proves my point:

"Not everyone that sins, or commits acts of sin, then every man is of the devil, because no man lives without the commission of sin; but he who makes sin his constant business, and the employment of his life, whose life is a continued series of sinning, he is of the devil; not as to origin and substance, or by proper generation, as some have literally understood the words; but by imitation, being like him, and so of him their father, doing his lusts, living continually in sin, as he does, and so resemble him, as children do their parents; and hereby also appear to be under his government and influence, to be led captive by him at his will, and so to belong to him, and such as will have their part and portion with him in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, so living and dying:"

Source

To use 1 Jn. 3:8 and group everyone under it, then yes, Peter and Paul included, every Christian would go to hell, or the lake of fire. For there are no, none, zip, nada, no perfect Christian that does not sin.

Paul shows that in Rom. 7.

The fact that even though he was saved by the grace f God, he still had that "sin-nature" in him, and struggled with it.

Not everyone who goes to the altar, confesses and is baptized are saved. That is why Matthew recorded:

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Another prime example would be Simon the sorcerer in Acts. (cf. Acts 8:9-24)

Not all that glitters is gold.

These people were never saved, truly saved to begin with.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[sdowney717]

Even from the Greek text, we are able to learn that the "believers" John wrote to, could and did sin. We, as Christians, can and do sin also. None of us are perfect...yet.

Sin, deceives us. (ἁμαρτίαν...πλανῶμεν) That is why it is written "If we say we have no sin" it is because it deceives us, yes even us Christians.

And that is why John went further to say:

"He that committeth sin is of the devil" -1 Jn. 3:8

John Gill again proves my point:

"Not everyone that sins, or commits acts of sin, then every man is of the devil, because no man lives without the commission of sin; but he who makes sin his constant business, and the employment of his life, whose life is a continued series of sinning, he is of the devil; not as to origin and substance, or by proper generation, as some have literally understood the words; but by imitation, being like him, and so of him their father, doing his lusts, living continually in sin, as he does, and so resemble him, as children do their parents; and hereby also appear to be under his government and influence, to be led captive by him at his will, and so to belong to him, and such as will have their part and portion with him in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, so living and dying:"

Source

To use 1 Jn. 3:8 and group everyone under it, then yes, Peter and Paul included, every Christian would go to hell, or the lake of fire. For there are no, none, zip, nada, no perfect Christian that does not sin.

Paul shows that in Rom. 7.

The fact that even though he was saved by the grace f God, he still had that "sin-nature" in him, and struggled with it.

Not everyone who goes to the altar, confesses and is baptized are saved. That is why Matthew recorded:

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Another prime example would be Simon the sorcerer in Acts. (cf. Acts 8:9-24)

Not all that glitters is gold.

These people were never saved, truly saved to begin with.

God Bless

Till all are one.

yes, which is what Paul emphasizes about the elect of God this,
Romans 8
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?36 As it is written:

“For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That justification of God's elect is all powerful, saving to the uttermost those that come to God through Him since He ever lives to make intercession for them.

Intercession for the saints is according to the will of God and includes intercession for sins committed in the body. We will be judged for the deeds done in the body, but our spiritual home is made by God, not human hands, so our salvation is not of ourselves being the gift of God and is eternal in the heavens as Christ has said in John 14.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, since your going to take such a hard line stance.

So, that being the case...

Show me in scripture, where Peter repented of the at least four times he sinned after Pentecost.

Three times Peter directly disobeyed God when He let down the sheet. (cf. Acts 10:9-16)

And, he sinned again in Galatica. Paul accused him of hypocrisy. (cf Gal 2:11-14)

Show me in scripture, where Paul repented of the at least three times he sinned after Pentecost.

Paul disobeyed the Holy Spirit at least once, maybe twice. (cf. Acts 21:4,11)

And again Paul was guilty of disobeying the spirit of the law in that he reviled the High Priest. (cf Acts 23:4-5; Ex. 22:28)

(In fact, if you really wanted to, you could make the argument that the phrase "When in Rome", was attributed to Paul. This was a lesson he learned well, for wasn't Paul who said: "To the Jews, I became a Jew" -cf. 1 Cor. 9:20)

And wasn't the First Epistle to Corinth written before Paul went to Jerusalem?

There is no repentance on their part recorded in scripture.

Using your line of thought, and using your own standard according to the scripture you quoted (1 Jn. 3:8) then we must, must say that both Peter and Paul died in their sins because they sinned purposely according to your standard of scripture.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Thank you for the many verses in Scripture. I will try to reply to each verse when I have the time. I have been super busy at work (and even at home) lately to give you a proper reply. However, before I go over every single verse you provided and give a thorough Biblical response, I would like to first bring up a couple of quick points so as to get to the truth of the matter of what you actually believe and so as to address quickly a couple of major things you said (of which I believe are huge errors or misunderstandings on your part involving Scripture and morality).

#1. Question in regards to your Soteriology.

(a) What version of Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) do you believe in?

Over the years in my study and discussion of OSAS with others, I have discovered that there are three major types of OSAS. Below is a list of the different types of OSAS. Please tell me which version of OSAS you believe in (below). If your version of OSAS does not appear, then please explain how your version of OSAS is different. Anyways, here is the different versions of OSAS.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small amount of unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).​

#2. Questions about Morality.

(a) How would you define Morality (God's standard of righteousness, a code of ethics, or in one doing good) according to the Bible?
(b) Is not Morality or doing good consistent with God and the Bible?
(c) Do not good people do good and bad people do bad?
(d) Does doing a little bit of bad vs. doing a lot of bad make one a better person? What if a person murders only once every decade? Are they good because they murder only once every decade?
(e) Would not God have to agree with you in doing evil or sin in order for your version of Salvation to work? Does God paying the price for sin at the cross at one point in time really undo the penalty of sin in the present moment of time? In other words, if I paid for a person's crimes whereby they were seeking mercy and forgiveness for what they have done, will they be forgiven again by the court system if they commit the crime again another time?​

#3. Dealing with your view on Repentance.

While we do not always see it in Scripture where believers repent after they have sinned, that does not mean that they have not repented. That would be like making a case out of thin air. Just because something is not mentioned as happening does not mean it did not take place. That would be like assuming that the apostles did not go to bathroom because it is not mentioned. But we know that they repented of their sins because the Bible teaches such a doctrine very clearly elsewhere. But before I throw a bunch of verses at you. I think it is best to first understand what you think Repentance actually is (or how you define it).

(a) So I will ask you: How would you define Repentance according to the Bible?
(b) Is forsaking sin (and putting it away) always the natural result of Repentance?
(c) Is forsaking sin a part of Repentance?​

#4. Your view on 1 John 3:8.

A believer is characterized as walking in God's good ways. Stumbling may be a part of our walk with God but that does not mean we should expect to stumble. Our goal should always be perfection and to overcome sin because Jesus desires this from us. For Jesus said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Jesus also told two people to sin no more. Jesus said to the Pharisees he that sins is a slave to sin. Jesus did not say this favorably towards the Pharisees. For Jesus was criticizing them (see John 8). Anyways, in 1 John 3:8, it sounds like you are completely ignoring what it says.

(a) How does 1 John 3:8 apply?
(b) Is not he that commits sin of the devil?
(c) If so, then how does it apply?
(d) Does not 1 John 3:7 say he that does righteousness is righteous?
(e) Does not 1 John 3:10 define for us who is of God and who is of the devil?
(f) How do you interpret 1 John 3:10?​

#5. My general impression of your Argument.

When I read the New Testament, many, many, many times it talks about how we are to live holy and righteously. Yet, when I talk with you, I get the opposite impression. Whether that was your intention or not, that is the impression I am getting. For it seems like you are fighting against the idea of living holy as a requirement for a believer in being saved and that you arguing so as to defend sin and evil. That we are saved by having a belief on Jesus Christ and it has absolutely nothing to do with one's behavior.
(a) This means that one can live like the devil and still be saved?
(b) If that is what you are saying, then how are you not arguing on behalf of doing evil or sin instead of holiness?
(c) How exactly does this type of belief fit into God's goodness and or justice?
(d) Can you make a real world example out of such a belief?
If so, please provide an example.
(e) Why does a good majority of the Bible focus on us living holy if you are giving me the impression of doing the exact opposite?
​

Anyways, I ask these questions so as to better understand your position or belief so as to give you a proper reply on the following many verses you have given to me. So please be kind and reply to them when you have the time. I am in no rush. Oh, and more thing. Please provide Scripture as a part of answering my questions, too. Thank you.

In any event, may God bless you and please be well.

With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


...

 

[DeaconDean]

#1. Question in regards to your Soteriology.
(a) What version of Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) do you believe in?

Over the years in my study and discussion of OSAS with others, I have discovered that there are three major types of OSAS. Below is a list of the different types of OSAS. Please tell me which version of OSAS you believe in (below). If your version of OSAS does not appear, then please explain how your version of OSAS is different. Anyways, here is the different versions of OSAS I have discovered (over the years).

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

None of the above. Two have the phrase "practice unrepentant sin", and one says "an occasional or small unrepentant sin".

Sin is sin. All sins are forgivable except "the unpardonable sin". If one repents, even after the point of salvation, that sin is forgiven. However, one may forget and not ask for forgiveness, but if its not the unpardonable sin, I don't believe it will cost them their salvation.

And even at that, scriptures say that the unpardonable sin "will not be forgiven in this life, or the life to come" (cf. Mt. 12:32) But I don't see where it says even that will cost you your salvation. All it says is that it will not be forgiven.

Have you in this lifetime, in your current walk with God achieved "complete sanctification"?

I know I haven't.

#2. Questions about Morality.
(a) How would you define Morality (God's standard of righteousness, a code of ethics, or in one doing good) according to the Bible?
(b) Is not Morality or doing good consistent with God and the Bible?
(c) Do not good people do good and bad people do bad?
(d) Does doing a little bit of bad vs. doing a lot of bad make one a better person? What if a person murders only once every decade? Are they good because they murder only once every decade?
(e) Would not God have to agree with you in doing evil or sin in order for your version of Salvation to work? Does God paying the price for sin at the cross at one point in time really undo the penalty of sin in the present moment of time? In other words, if I paid for a person's crimes whereby they were seeking mercy and forgiveness for what they have done, will they be forgiven again by the court system if they commit the crime again another time?

Name one person beside the Lord Jesus Christ, that has measured up to God's high standard of morality.

Good people do good and bad. Likewise bad people do good and bad.

Show me the difference between committing adultery, verses looking at a person in lust.

King David, a man recorded in scripture as "a man after God's own heart" murdered in cold blood. So your example does not matter.

#3. Dealing with your view on Repentance.

While we do not always see it in Scripture where believers repent after they have sinned, that does not mean that they have not repented. That would be like making a case out of thin air. Just because something is not mentioned as happening does not mean it did not take place. That would be like assuming that the apostles did not go to bathroom because it is not mentioned. But we know that they repented of their sins because the Bible teaches such a doctrine very clearly elsewhere. But before I throw a bunch of verses at you. I think it is best to first understand what you think Repentance actually is (or how you define it).

(a) So I will ask you: How would you define Repentance according to the Bible?
(b) Is forsaking sin (and putting it away) always the natural result of Repentance?
(c) Is forsaking sin a part of Repentance?

Read James P. Boyce, Abstract of Systematiic Theology, Repentance, Chapter 33. Read Charles Hodge, Faith and Repentance.

As Charles Hodge puts it: "Scriptures teach that whosoever believes shall be saved, they teach us no less clearly that, except we repent, we shall all perish."

#4. Your view on 1 John 3:8.
A believer is characterized as walking in God's good ways. Stumbling may be a part of our walk with God but that does not mean we should expect to stumble. Our goal should always be perfection and to overcome sin because Jesus desires this from us. For Jesus said be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Jesus also told two people to sin no more. Jesus said to the Pharisees he that sins is a slave to sin. Jesus did not say this favorably towards the Pharisees. For Jesus was criticizing them (see John 8). Anyways, in 1 John 3:8, it sounds like you are completely ignoring what it says.

(a) How does 1 John 3:8 apply?
(b) Is not he that commits sin of the devil?
(c) If so, then how does it apply?
(d) Does not 1 John 3:7 say he that does righteousness is righteous?
(e) Does not 1 John 3:10 define for us who is of God and who is of the devil?
(f) How do you interpret 1 John 3:10?

My point is and has been, that you lump every single Christian under 1 Jn. 3:8. If a Christian sins, and they will, then we have no recourse than to conclude they are of the devil because of the clause in 1 Jn. 3:8.

Has the point of salvation so utterly eradicated sin your life that you can not sin anymore? (Complete Sanctification)

#5. My general impression of your Argument.
When I read the New Testament, many, many, many times it talks about how we are to live holy and righteously. Yet, when I talk with you, I get the opposite impression. Whether that was your intention or not, that is the impression I am getting. For it seems like you are fighting against the idea of living holy as a requirement for a believer in being saved and that you arguing so as to defend sin and evil. That we are saved by having a belief on Jesus Christ and it has absolutely nothing to do with one's behavior.
(a) This means that one can live like the devil and still be saved?
(b) If that is what you are saying, then how are you not arguing on behalf of doing evil or sin instead of holiness?
(c) How exactly does this type of belief fit into God's goodness and or justice?
(d) Can you make a real world example out of such a belief?
If so, please provide an example.
(e) Why does a good majority of the Bible focus on us living holy if you are giving me the impression of doing the exact opposite?

Again, no, I have a problem with you lumping every single Christian under 1 Jn. 3:8 as the standard. A mark not even the Apostles could achieve.

Yes, we are called to live holy. But I realize that sometimes, we slip and fall, stumble. But I also know that as long as I live in this flesh, in this body, in this world, sin will always be a part of me. I will not be perfect as the Lord is perfect until I'm made like He is.

If a person goes to church, makes a confession, is baptized, and after church goes to the bar, or to their mistresses house, then they were never really saved to begin with.

Perhaps I'm not as perfect as you.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I have a few questions for you Jason.

There was many years ago, a commercial on television. Tootsie Pops in particular. The theme of the commercial was:

"How many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?"

The same principle applies with this question.

1) How many sins does it take before one loses their salvation?

1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 1000000, 1000000?

I have asked this question for 12 years now here on the forums, and nobody can provide an answer.

Perhaps you can.

I want to know.

2) Would you agree that God is omnipotent?

I want you to think, really think and think hard before you answer this one.

3) I believe that Perseverance of the Saints and OSAS are very closely related to each other. Why would you disagree with this?

4) I have already admitted that one of the problems John was addressing in the context of his First letter was that of antinomianism. I see a contradiction between your interpretation of 1 Jn. 1:8-10 and 1 Jn. 3:8. Why would John tell his readers that if they sin they could ask for forgiveness then turn right around and tell them that if one sins they are of the devil?

5) You took me to task on "repentance. I quote an article: "The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions (Luke 3:8-14; Acts 3:19). Acts 26:20 declares, “I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.” The full biblical definition of repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action."

Source

What is you definition of "repentance"?

6) I have maintained that even born again Christians will sin. We see this from Paul's own writing in Rom. 7. The writer of Hebrews agrees with that and me. For he writes: " let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us," -Heb. 12:1 Do you accept the position on "Entire Sanctification"? Because to me you appear to be an advocate of it.

7) You also give the impression that any advocate of OSAS such as myself, is a license to sin. That is classic antinominainism. And that ignore the call to a holy life. Where have I said that?

8) I have tried to show you though sources other than my own opinions where you are not necessarily wrong, but draw the wrong conclusions. (i.e. the Greek text and commentaries) Where are your sources other than your own opinions?

We'll continue once these are answered.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[GillDouglas]

Is it possible for a believer to go to hell? What happens after death to those that did alot of sins but where believers?

What does the promise of the new covenant say in regards to this question? Does God's promise hold any worth or meaning to you or to those whom the Father has given to the Son?

In the title you use "Christian" and in the actual post you use "believer". In my opinion, you're going to get varying responses because the differences between the two titles. Not all "Christians" are believers in the sense that they believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, the good news being that He died for the sins of His people and faith in His work by the grace of God is the freedom from that sin and its wage, being death.

What happens to a believer, after death, who has sinned in his life? A believer in Christ is forgiven by His work on the Cross, regardless of the sin. Additionally, the believer spends eternity with God in Heaven. What happens to a non-believer, after death, who has sinned in his life? Hell.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

None of the above. Two have the phrase "practice unrepentant sin", and one says "an occasional or small unrepentant sin".

Dear Dean:

I believe you have misunderstood what I had written about the different versions of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).

Only one version of Eternal Security that I mentioned says you can practice unrepentant sin.

The second version says you cannot practice unrepentant sin (but that you can sin on a occasion (which means not all the time) or that someone can shortly commit one or two unrepentant sins before they die and still be saved - as long as they generally lived a holy life). The second one is a justification a little bit of sin vs. a lot of sin. But both the first one and the second seek to make an excuse for sin.

The third version says you cannot live unrighteously or you were never born again to begin with (Which is basically saying that the prodigal son believer does not exist or that they are liars). Anyways, here is an explanation on them again (that will hopefully help you understand them a little better).

"Classic OSAS" is basically saying you can sin as much as you like (while not repenting of it) and still be saved. For example: This believer could think they could mow down a crowd with a sub machine and still be saved while they are killing others (as long they had a belief on Jesus as their Savior). I have talked with someone in person who actually admits that they would be saved if they did this (Not that they had any intention of doing so mind you). Anyways, this belief basically is saying that living holy has zero (0%) effect on your being saved or not. A person can live as sinful as they like and still be saved as long as they have a belief on Jesus as their Savior. Basically, someone could have monitored Hitler with a secret video camera and we still would not know if he was saved or not (According to this belief). Now, I am not saying you believe in this version of OSAS, but when you ask questions like how many sins does it take to lose your salvation (as a way of comparison to the commercial that asks the question: "how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie roll?"), it sounds like you are promoting this kind of doctrine (Instead of living righteously and upright with the Lord God all mighty who is holy and good). In my opinion, by your asking the question, "how many sins does it take to lose your salvation?" it can give a person the wrong idea that they can sin as much as they like whereby they could try to justify living in sin with the thinking they are saved (Which is wrong). For God's grace does not cover willful deliberate sin with no remorse (See Hebrews 10:26-29, 2 Corinthians 7:10, Proverbs 28:13).

"Mid Range OSAS" is basically saying that you have to generally live a holy life or you are not saved but .... living in sin on occasion (while not repenting of it) and or committing one or two unrepentant sins shortly before you die does not effect your salvation. This belief is a seeking to justify a little bit of sin vs. (versus) a lot of sin. That a believer can have the mind set that they can sin only a little bit as long as they live generally holy. Yet, it only took one sin (and not many sins) for both Adam and Lucifer to fall. Yes, Adam was given a chance to be forgiven (and I believe he is saved). But the devil is not saved (because he sinned with his eyes wide open - involving no faith). But the point is that they are examples to us that even one sin can separate you from God. For even you admit that there is an unforgivable sin (Which is just one sin). So how many sins does it take to lose one's salvation? In some cases, it only takes one. You said in another post that you agreed with the Bible Commentary that 1 John 3:8 is saying that it describing of how a person is to generally live.

"OSAS Lite" is essentially saying that a believer has to live holy their whole life or you they were never saved or born again to begin with. Meaning, that OSAS is only true if you live righteously in this life and that falling away from the faith is impossible (Despite the many verses that say otherwise). Yet, there are many believers who lived faithfully for God for many years and fell away (like the prodigal son) into a lifestyle of sin (while still believing on Jesus as their Savior) and they truly came back to the faith or the Lord to the saving of their soul by repenting of their sins and rededicating their lives to God. Yet, the "OSAS Lite" proponent believes that this person does not exist or that this individual is lying. However, I know personally that the Prodigal Son type believer does exist. For I am one of them. I knew I was saved when I was on fire for the Lord in the beginning of my faith (for I wanted all people to feel the peace of Jesus that I had). I then later backslid into sin and came to a point that I was not saved by the sinful lifestyle and thoughts I was having. So I rededicated myself to God and repented of my sinful life style (which is a parallel of the story of the Prodigal Son). I then knew I was saved after repenting of my sins and a new powerful inflow of the Spirit of God was in my life helping me to live righteously and know more and more about His Word (beyond my imagining).

Anyways, I asked you to describe your version of Eternal Security. Meaning, I would like to know how morality or God's goodness (i.e. doing righteousness) plays into your belief of Once Saved Always Saved. So if your version of Eternal Security does not appear, please explain how your belief is different. Thank you. For to me, it sounds like you do not know what you believe in regards to Morality and the Bible in relation to Eternal Security. For when you talk, sometimes I get the impression you believe in Classic OSAS; And other times I get the impression you believe Mid Range OSAS. Whether you actually believe in them is another matter. But by your words, they give me clues or indications that they line up with these particular beliefs.

All sins are forgivable except "the unpardonable sin". If one repents, even after the point of salvation, that sin is forgiven. However, one may forget and not ask for forgiveness, but if its not the unpardonable sin, I don't believe it will cost them their salvation.

Most Eternal Security Proponents erroneously believe that the unpardonable sin is rejecting Jesus Christ as their Savior in this life. But that is not the one unpardonable sin that Jesus is talking about. The unpardonable sin that Jesus is talking about is speaking bad words (blasphemy) towards the Holy Ghost. It says this sin will not be forgiven in this life or the life to come. What is the life to come? That would be the Millennium (or the 1,000 year reign of Christ); For it is the only other age or period of time whereby sin will exist one last time. For there will be no unbelievers in the 1,000 year reign of Christ (Because Jesus will be reigning and living there amongst His people).

And even at that, scriptures say that the unpardonable sin "will not be forgiven in this life, or the life to come" (cf. Mt. 12:32) But I don't see where it says even that will cost you your salvation. All it says is that it will not be forgiven.

Yeah, I just don't get that type of interpretation at all. If one is not forgiven, then they are not saved. For the forgiveness is is tied to our sins being forgiving or God's saving grace.

"Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins" (Acts 13:38).

"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me" (Acts 26:18).

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" (Ephesians 1:7).

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9 cf. 1 John 2:4).

"...Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered" (Romans 4:7).

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" (Colossians 2:13)

(Important Note: I know what you are thinking. You think Colossians 2:13 proves your belief. But it doesn't; Not in the slightest. For the "all trespasses" is in reference to "all past trespasses" and not future ones whereby a person would commit them and then refuse to repent of such trespasses; For Jesus says, "repent or perish").​

Matthew 6:15 says if we do not forgive, then we will not be forgiven by the Father. So are you saying that there will be believers in God's Kingdom who do not have a right relationship with the Father? That sounds absolutely proposterous. All people who are in God's Kingdom are forgiven of their sins by God. To think otherwise is to stretch the text of the Bible and or common basic logic about how the real world operates. For example: In a family, if a father does not forgive his son, they are not going to be happy together and living in the same household.

Sin is sin.

Not all sin is the same. 1 John 5:16-18 talks about sins that lead unto death (spiritual death) and sins that do not lead unto death (spiritual death). Sins unto death are sins that lead unto the "Second Death." In Revelation 21:8, John lists sins that lead unto the "Second Death"; These sins are murder, lying, sexual immorality, witchcraft, and idolatry, etc. Paul also repeats these sins to believers, telling them that they which do such things are worthy of death (Romans 1:32). Not physical death because most (not all) people will die physically regardless of whether or not they are a believer or an unbeliever.

Have you in this lifetime, in your current walk with God achieved "complete sanctification"? I know I haven't.

Well, you are asking a loaded or erroneous question. Sanctification is a process. The more accurate question is:

"Do you believe you can walk in righteousness according to God's holy standards according to the New Testament today?"

I believe the answer to that question would be a ...

"Yes."

For Jesus told two people to sin no more. If "being a slave to sin was normal for a believer" was in view of Jesus's belief, then Jesus would have in effect lied to these two people (because they never really could have stopped sinning because sin is supposed to always be in a believer's life according to many OSAS Proponents). Jesus also told us to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Again, if we could not be perfect, then Jesus would have been telling a lie because he would in effect be telling us to do something that we could never actually acheive.

Name one person beside the Lord Jesus Christ, that has measured up to God's high standard of morality.

Well, actually the 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God (See Revelation 14:3-5).

Good people do good and bad. Likewise bad people do good and bad.

So you are saying that there is no way that we can tell a believer from an unbeliever? That there will be no fruits of God or the Lord within a person's life? Paul says, prove that Christ is in you unless you be reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5). A reprobate is someone who is not right with God; And how do you prove that Christ is in you? See 1 John 2:3-4.

Show me the difference between committing adultery, verses looking at a person in lust.

Are you trying to rationalize sin with me? Did Paul ever talk this way? Oh, and no. The bulk of Romans 7 is Paul talking about his experience of when he was a Pharisee (obeying a form of Works Alone Salvationism) before he was a Christian. For in Romans 7:14 Paul says he is sold under sin and in Romans 8:2 Paul says he is free from the Law of sin and death.

Anyways, there is no difference between committing the act of adultery and in having lustful thoughts towards women. In fact, in Matthew 5:28-30 Jesus says that a person can be cast bodily into hell fire for lusting after women (i.e. committing adultery in their heart). In other words, both of these are acts of adultery and they can cause one to experience the "Second Death." For the unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. "Gnashing of teeth" is something a wolf does. There will be no place of outer darkness in God's good Kingdom. Not going to happen. Unprofitable servants are not saved.

King David, a man recorded in scripture as "a man after God's own heart" murdered in cold blood. So your example does not matter.

Please re-read Psalms 51 again (a little more closely). David did not continue to live in a sinful lifestyle the rest of His life and yet also receive the mercy and good grace of God (while sinning). David was righteous because he acted righteously by confessing and forsaking his sin. He did not seek to continue to live in sin with the thinking he was saved.

Read James P. Boyce, Abstract of Systematiic Theology, Repentance, Chapter 33. Read Charles Hodge, Faith and Repentance.

As Charles Hodge puts it: "Scriptures teach that whosoever believes shall be saved, they teach us no less clearly that, except we repent, we shall all perish."

Thanks. But no thanks. If these books would lead me to think of salvation and sin in the same way you do, I want no part in reading such books. For I am getting the impression that you are defending sin on some level (even though at other times you appear to not do so).

My point is and has been, that you lump every single Christian under 1 Jn. 3:8. If a Christian sins, and they will, then we have no recourse than to conclude they are of the devil because of the clause in 1 Jn. 3:8.

No. They do not have to be of the devil by living in a life of sin. For there is nothing that can tranform or changes lives more than Jesus Christ; That is why God's people preach the good news of Jesus Christ so as to be saved by Him. For Jesus has fixed up broken homes (or familes). Jesus has drawn the alcoholic away from the bottle. Jesus has helped the gambler to put down his cards and walk away from the game. Jesus has helped the drug addict from the power of the needle. Jesus has helped the harlot from being a slave to sexual sin and money. For Jesus Christ changes lives. Jesus changed my life and He continues to change lives today (Making them new creations in His image).

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
(2 Corinthians 5:17).

Hence, why 1 John 3:8 also says, "For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

This would be the works of the devil (sin) within a believer's life. For the context is talking about doing righteousness (1 John 3:7) vs (versus) committing sin (1 John 3:8).

Has the point of salvation so utterly eradicated sin your life that you can not sin anymore? (Complete Sanctification)

1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin. This means that those who are persecuted for Christ's sake physically for righteousness sake have ceased from sin or those who have suffered greatly in denying themselves and picking up their crosses are truly following Jesus.

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

David hid God's Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord.

Jesus tells us to pray so as not to be led into temptation. What is the whole point of praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are already sinning? Does not temptation lead to sin? Think man.

Again, no, I have a problem with you lumping every single Christian under 1 Jn. 3:8 as the standard. A mark not even the Apostles could achieve.

Yes, we are called to live holy. But I realize that sometimes, we slip and fall, stumble. But I also know that as long as I live in this flesh, in this body, in this world, sin will always be a part of me. I will not be perfect as the Lord is perfect until I'm made like He is.

Jesus says no man can serve two masters. For he will hate the one and love the other. Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin. A person who is a slave to something means that they have a master to that thing that they are being a slave to. Meaning if something is controlling your life that is bad, it is not something that is from God and His Kingdom but it is from another kingdom. Paul says in Romans 6 that you are either a servant or slave to righteousness (that leads to eternal life) or you are a servant or slave to sin (that leads to death).

If a person goes to church, makes a confession, is baptized, and after church goes to the bar, or to their mistresses house, then they were never really saved to begin with.

Now you are giving me the impression that you believe in "OSAS Lite." That a believer is characterized as living holy. If they do not live holy then they were never saved or born againt to begin with. However, before you have given me the impression that a believer can live immorally by your asking a question of how many sins does it take for you to lose your salvation. This means that living morally does not really matter.

Perhaps I'm not as perfect as you.

I am in no way interested in talking about my personal life here and or seeking any kind of glory for myself. This is not Facebook; And I prefer to do my good works in secret before the Father. The Bible's stand on morality and how believer's are supposed to live (so as to be right with God) is true regardless of my life.

God Bless

And may God bless you, too.
And may He open your understanding on this matter in the name of Jesus.
Please be well.

Sincerely,

Jason.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have a few questions for you Jason.

There was many years ago, a commercial on television. Tootsie Pops in particular. The theme of the commercial was:

"How many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop?"

The same principle applies with this question.

1) How many sins does it take before one loses their salvation?

1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 1000000, 1000000?

I have asked this question for 12 years now here on the forums, and nobody can provide an answer.

Perhaps you can.

I want to know.

Yes, I grew up in the 80's as a part of my teenage years. So I am familar with the commercial. I also grew up understanding a basic concept of morality, too (even as an unbeliever). I understood that good guys do good and bad guys do bad. I suppose I was lucky in understanding this concept by reading super hero comics when I was kid. However, even life teaches us that a person's character is characterized by what they do. Granted, that does not mean somebody cannot accept Jesus right before they die like the thief on the cross. But it still was that person's last right action with God that allows for God's grace to be showered upon them. So right action leads to a person in being righteous (See 1 John 3:7).

Anyways, you asked the question(s):

Q - #1: How many sins does it take before one loses their salvation?
1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 1000000, 1000000?

A - #1: It only takes one sin. For how many sins did it take for Adam to cause the fall of mankind or a separation between God and man? It only took one sin. For Jesus says if a man looks upon a woman in lust his whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says by your words you will be justified and by your words you can be condemned (Matthew 12:36-37). John says if one hates their brother they are like a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them (1 John 3:15). John says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). John makes no mention of another group of liars whereby this is not the case. In fact, Ananais and Sapphira had lied to the Holy Ghost and they died instantly for doing so. After this had happened, a great fear had fell upon the church (the body of believers) and all who heard about it. Now, if they were saved and in God's Kingdom, why would people be in fear? It doesn't make any sense. Paul said to live is Christ and to die is gain. So believers are not to be in fear of death. For Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

Now, can God forgive a ton of sin for a backslidden believer if they seek to repent? Yes, absolutely. But they have to be willing to repent, though. Abiding in sin with the thinking one is saved (while they are sinning) is a justification of evil because that would mean God would have to agree with your present and future willful act to do wrong with the thinking you are going to be rewarded by Him for Him allowing you to enter His Kingdom; For Jesus says, "Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of thy Lord."

2) Would you agree that God is omnipotent?

I want you to think, really think and think hard before you answer this one.

Q - #2: Would you agree that God is Omnipotent?
(Your added comment: "I want you to think, really think and think hard before you answer this one.")

A - #2: There is nothing to think about. The answer is a "yes."

3) I believe that Perseverance of the Saints and OSAS are very closely related to each other. Why would you disagree with this?

Q - #3: I believe that Perseverance of the Saints and OSAS are very closely related to each other. Why would you disagree with this?

A - #3: Well, I used to believe that God regenerates us based on God's Omniscience (Not Omnipotence). For I believed at one time that God would draw and regenerate us knowing our future free will choices (By a false misunderstanding on 1 Peter 1:1-2). Meaning, I used to believe God would make us born again (with no choice on our part yet in real time) based upon God knowing what our future free will choice was going to potentially be. But I no longer believe that. For it is unbiblical. How so? Well, first, God electing (i.e. Choosing us before time based on what He knows we will do) is not God drawing and regenerating us. The word "elect" or "election" is merely something God does before hand without a regeneration needed. Second, no doubt you believe the way you do because of a false misunderstanding on John 6:44. For this verse suggests that there are some who will not be drawn by the Father. Is this true? Yes. But the only ones who will not be drawn to the Father are those who worship the beast, though (Revelation 13:8).

But does John 6:44 apply to others who reject Christ (when they had the chance to accept Him)? No. Most certainly not. How so?

Well, you have to understand that the Pharisees believed salvation was a form of Works Alone Salvationism. It was all works and it did not include grace or a Savior by repenting of one's sins to ultimately get right with God. They were trying to force their way into the Kingdom (Matthew 11:12) when Jesus was the door or the gate (John 10:9). This is why Jesus says that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws Him (John 6:44). He was saying you can't force your way in by your own efforts alone (by doing it your way) but you have to respond to the drawing of the Father. For God so loved the WORLD (John 3:16). And God is not willing that ANY should perish (2 Peter 3:9). Jesus says come unto me (Matthew 11:28). And Christ draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32).

I mean why do you think Jesus wept over Jerusalem? Again, Jesus desired for the Jews (Pharisees) to be saved but they wouldn't allow Him to do so. They wouldn't listen. They wanted to do things their way (or the Burger King way).

Again, listen to the words of Jesus,

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37 NLT).​

Now, how on Earth does Calvinism make any sense when one reads the words that are enlarged and bolded in this above verse?

The short answer is that it simply doesn't make any sense.

4) I have already admitted that one of the problems John was addressing in the context of his First letter was that of antinomianism. I see a contradiction between your interpretation of 1 Jn. 1:8-10 and 1 Jn. 3:8. Why would John tell his readers that if they sin they could ask for forgiveness then turn right around and tell them that if one sins they are of the devil?

On one hand you are defending that a believer will always sin by saying that 1 John 1:8 is suggesting that we will always have have sin in our life and yet on the other hand you are contradicting that notion by saying 1 John 3:8 is a means of generally walking uprightly and not being characterized as living like a devil. For how many sins does it take to fulfill 1 John 1:8 without one being a devil according to 1 John 3:8? Before you were asking a question that suggested that no amount of sin can separate you from God. So I really do not think you believe 1 John 3:8. Why? Because you say you will always sin.

In other words, there is a difference between an alcoholic who stumbles on his road to recovery vs. (versus) say the alcoholic who believes they will be a slave to the bottle the rest of their lives.

Anyways, here is your question and my answer.

Q - #4: Why would John tell his readers that if they sin they could ask for forgiveness then turn right around and tell them that if one sins they are of the devil?

A - #4: Well, because 1 John 1:8 is not teaching that we will always have sin in our life. 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the believer about those false sessionists (or those who were trying to seduce them - See 1 John 2:26). In other words, 1 John 1:8 is saying "if we say we have no sin when we do sin, we are deceiving ourselves." Meaning it is warning us to not think that sin does not exist for us if we do sin. For 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the believer today not to be deceived into thinking like the Christian Scientist who thinks that sin is an illusion and does not exist. 1 John 1:8 is also a warning to the believer today to deny the existence of sin by thinking that while they may sin physically, they cannot sin spiritually because Jesus paid for their sins in both the present and the future. John's solution to this is 1 John 1:9 by a believer confessing their sin. This is in line with 1 John 1:7 that says we are to walk in the light as he is in the light whereby the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light of Jesus is forsaking one's sins and walking uprightly. It is how we know we are in Him (1 John 2:3-4). While the Lord can forgive a lot and while believers can struggle with sin from time to time, their natural state of walking with the Lord thru out their entire life in Christ is not characterized by a life of sin because it is Jesus's good work and fruit that will flow thru their life (and not sin). For Jesus is in the business of transforming lives. Yes, God working in the life of a believer may not always be an overnight or instant change for some, but by His power and grace, they can learn to walk uprightly and in their good ways (Not with the thinking that they can sin and still be saved, but with the thinking that they will overcome their sin in this life).


...

 

[GillDouglas]

Yes, I grew up in the 80's as a part of my teenage years. So I am familar with the commercial. I also grew up understanding a basic concept of morality, too (even as an unbeliever). I understood that good guys do good and bad guys do bad. I suppose I was lucky in understanding this concept by reading super hero comics when I was kid. However, even life teaches us that a person's character is characterized by what they do. Granted, that does not mean somebody cannot accept Jesus right before they die like the thief on the cross. But it still was that person's last right action with God that allows for God's grace to be showered upon them. So right action leads to a person in being righteous (See 1 John 3:7).

Anyways, you asked the question(s):

Q - #1: How many sins does it take before one loses their salvation?
1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 1000000, 1000000?

A - #1: It only takes one sin. For how many sins did it take for Adam to cause the fall of mankind or a separation between God and man? It only took one sin. For Jesus says if a man looks upon a woman in lust his whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says by your words you will be justified and by your words you can be condemned (Matthew 12:36-37). John says if one hates their brother they are like a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them (1 John 3:15). John says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). John makes no mention of another group of liars whereby this is not the case. In fact, Ananais and Sapphira had lied to the Holy Ghost and they died instantly for doing so. After this had happened, a great fear had fell upon the church (the body of believers) and all who heard about it. Now, if they were saved and in God's Kingdom, why would people be in fear? It doesn't make any sense. Paul said to live is Christ and to die is gain. So believers are not to be in fear of death. For Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

Now, can God forgive a ton of sin for a backslidden believer if they seek to repent? Yes, absolutely. But they have to be willing to repent, though. Abiding in sin with the thinking one is saved (while they are sinning) is a justification of evil because that would mean God would have to agree with your present and future willful act to do wrong with the thinking you are going to be rewarded by Him for Him allowing you to enter His Kingdom; For Jesus says, "Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of thy Lord."



Q - #2: Would you agree that God is Omnipotent?
(Your added comment: "I want you to think, really think and think hard before you answer this one.")

A - #2: There is nothing to think about. The answer is a "yes."



Q - #3: I believe that Perseverance of the Saints and OSAS are very closely related to each other. Why would you disagree with this?

A - #3: Well, I used to believe that God regenerates us based on God's Omniscience (Not Omnipotence). For I believed at one time that God would draw and regenerate us knowing our future free will choices (By a false misunderstanding on 1 Peter 1:1-2). Meaning, I used to believe God would make us born again (with no choice on our part yet in real time) based upon God knowing what our future free will choice was going to potentially be. But I no longer believe that. For it is unbiblical. How so? Well, first, God electing (i.e. Choosing us before time based on what He knows we will do) is not God drawing and regenerating us. The word "elect" or "election" is merely something God does before hand without a regeneration needed. Second, no doubt you believe the way you do because of a false misunderstanding on John 6:44. For this verse suggests that there are some who will not be drawn by the Father. Is this true? Yes. But the only ones who will not be drawn to the Father are those who worship the beast, though (Revelation 13:8).

But does John 6:44 apply to others who reject Christ (when they had the chance to accept Him)? No. Most certainly not. How so?

Well, you have to understand that the Pharisees believed salvation was a form of Works Alone Salvationism. It was all works and it did not include grace or a Savior by repenting of one's sins to ultimately get right with God. They were trying to force their way into the Kingdom (Matthew 11:12) when Jesus was the door or the gate (John 10:9). This is why Jesus says that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws Him (John 6:44). He was saying you can't force your way in by your own efforts alone (by doing it your way) but you have to respond to the drawing of the Father. For God so loved the WORLD (John 3:16). And God is not willing that ANY should perish (2 Peter 3:9). Jesus says come unto me (Matthew 11:28). And Christ draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32).

I mean why do you think Jesus wept over Jerusalem? Again, Jesus desired for the Jews (Pharisees) to be saved but they wouldn't allow Him to do so. They wouldn't listen. They wanted to do things their way (or the Burger King way).

Again, listen to the words of Jesus,

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37 NLT).​

Now, how on Earth does Calvinism make any sense when one reads the words that are enlarged and bolded in this above verse?

The short answer is that it simply doesn't make any sense.



On one hand you are defending that a believer will always sin by saying that 1 John 1:8 is suggesting that we will always have have sin in our life and yet on the other hand you are contradicting that notion by saying 1 John 3:8 is a means of generally walking uprightly and not being characterized as living like a devil. For how many sins does it take to fulfill 1 John 1:8 without one being a devil according to 1 John 3:8? Before you were asking a question that suggested that no amount of sin can separate you from God. So I really do not think you believe 1 John 3:8. Why? Because you say you will always sin.

In other words, there is a difference between an alcoholic who stumbles on his road to recovery vs. (versus) say the alcoholic who believes they will be a slave to the bottle the rest of their lives.

Anyways, here is your question and my answer.

Q - #4: Why would John tell his readers that if they sin they could ask for forgiveness then turn right around and tell them that if one sins they are of the devil?

A - #4: Well, because 1 John 1:8 is not teaching that we will always have sin in our life. 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the believer about those false sessionists (or those who were trying to seduce them - See 1 John 2:26). In other words, 1 John 1:8 is saying "if we say we have no sin when we do sin, we are deceiving ourselves." Meaning it is warning us to not think that sin does not exist for us if we do sin. For 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the believer today not to be deceived into thinking like the Christian Scientist who thinks that sin is an illusion and does not exist. 1 John 1:8 is also a warning to the believer today to deny the existence of sin by thinking that while they may sin physically, they cannot sin spiritually because Jesus paid for their sins in both the present and the future. John's solution to this is 1 John 1:9 by a believer confessing their sin. This is in line with 1 John 1:7 that says we are to walk in the light as he is in the light whereby the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light of Jesus is forsaking one's sins and walking uprightly. It is how we know we are in Him (1 John 2:3-4). While the Lord can forgive a lot and while believers can struggle with sin from time to time, their natural state of walking with the Lord thru out their entire life in Christ is not characterized by a life of sin because it is Jesus's good work and fruit that will flow thru their life (and not sin). For Jesus is in the business of transforming lives. Yes, God working in the life of a believer may not always be an overnight or instant change for some, but by His power and grace, they can learn to walk uprightly and in their good ways (Not with the thinking that they can sin and still be saved, but with the thinking that they will overcome their sin in this life).


...

Jason,

You're still peddling your works based salvation? Brother, I'm sorry to say but you're not preaching from the gospel of Jesus Christ. You are preaching a self made, self sustained gospel of man, not the good news promised in the new covenant. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sins of the believer. To say that this does not include the failings of the imperfect believer is not good news at all, and in your teaching there is no hope and no faith.

I beg you to please rely on Christ and His work on the Cross for your eternal security and not your own works.

In Christ,

Doug

 

[sdowney717]

Christians do not go to hell.
Ritualists who follow the letter of the law don't understand the Spirit of the law.
His laws are written on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart, by the Spirit of the living God.


Romans 2:29
but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Christ’s Epistle
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason,

You're still peddling your works based salvation? Brother, I'm sorry to say but you're not preaching from the gospel of Jesus Christ. You are preaching a self made, self sustained gospel of man, not the good news promised in the new covenant. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sins of the believer. To say that this does not include the failings of the imperfect believer is not good news at all, and in your teaching there is no hope and no faith.

I beg you to please rely on Christ and His work on the Cross for your eternal security and not your own works.

In Christ,

Doug

The thing is that I am not relying upon my own works but I am relying upon the works of Christ (God). I believe all good works that are done in a believer's life originates from Christ or the Lord living within a believer. A Christian must cooperate with the Lord so as to allow Him to do the good work thru them. I trust in Christ to save me, but if there is no fruit in my life, then I am showing to be a different servant who is not good. Surely you can understand the difference today of recognizing the good guys vs. (versus) the bad guys, right? When you watch a movie, turn on the news, or go out into the world, you know bad people from good people by what they do and not by a belief alone. For a person cannot act like a devil and yet also believe in Jesus. That would be a contradiction. If Christ lives in a believer, then the good fruit of Christ will be evident in their lives. So yes, I do not believe in Works Alone Salvationism. We are ultimately saved by God's grace and by abiding in Christ. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). And Paul says prove that Christ is in you unless you be reprobate? (2 Corinthians 13:5). How can we have an assurance we know God or the Lord? 1 John 2:3 says, " And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Christians do not go to hell.
Ritualists who follow the letter of the law don't understand the Spirit of the law.
His laws are written on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart, by the Spirit of the living God.


Romans 2:29
but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:1-3 New King James Version (NKJV)
Christ’s Epistle
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? 2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

I beg to differ. Matthew 13:41-42 essentially says Christ's angels will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend (do sin) and who work iniquity (intense sin) and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).


...

 

[GillDouglas]

I beg to differ. Matthew 13:41-42 essentially says Christ's angels will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend (do sin) and who work iniquity (intense sin) and cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).


...

If you look a little further down at Matthew 13:49-50; Who are the wicked and who are the just that the angels shall divide? If you say the wicked are sinners, wouldn't that be everybody? Unless Paul was wrong when he said "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" in Romans 3:23.

 

[sdowney717]

v43, who are the righteous? Read Romans 10

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 10:5
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Christ is made to be for us our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, redemption, and that comes from God.

 

[sdowney717]

Philippians 3:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)
8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

Speaking of the righteousness which is come by faith in Christ which is from God by faith.
And scripture specifically rejects gaining Christ and being found in Him by seeking after your own righteousness according to God's commands, like do good, be good, do not sin, etc...

 

[EmSw]

v43, who are the righteous? Read Romans 10

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 10:5
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Christ is made to be for us our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, redemption, and that comes from God.

Christ is NOT made TO BE FOR US, OUR wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. You can't try to sneak in 'OUR' when it's not there.

1 John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

A man isn't righteous, nor born again unless he practices righteousness. If anyone says otherwise, they are deceiving us.

 

[Marvin Knox]

A man isn't righteous, nor born again unless he practices righteousness. If anyone says otherwise, they are deceiving us.

Nor does a man practice righteousness unless he is righteous and born again.

"The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." – Psalm 14:2-3 (Other, related scriptures on request).

Since the Lord makes it clear that being and acting righteous does not correspond to the natural condition of fallen man ------ being "born again" or becoming a "new creation" is a prerequisite to accomplishing those things having to do with righteousness.

The order cannot be reversed so as to teach that being or acting righteous accomplishes being born again.

The scriptures preclude such teaching.

 

[sdowney717]

Christ is NOT made TO BE FOR US, OUR wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. You can't try to sneak in 'OUR' when it's not there.

1 John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

A man isn't righteous, nor born again unless he practices righteousness. If anyone says otherwise, they are deceiving us.

Sorry but Christ dies for the ungodly, not for the righteous. He came to call sinners to repentance.

Romans 4:5
[ David Celebrates the Same Truth ] But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 5:6
[ Christ in Our Place ] For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

And I did not sneak in the for us, as it is for us that He is made our righteousness. US and OUR means the same thing.
Us is objective case and our is possessive case.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

30 and of Him ye -- ye are in Christ Jesus, who became to us from God wisdom, righteousness also, and sanctification, and redemption,

30 But it is from Him that you have your life in Christ Jesus, Whom God made our Wisdom from God, [revealed to us a knowledge of the divine plan of salvation previously hidden, manifesting itself as] our Righteousness [thus making us upright and putting us in right standing with God], and our Consecration [making us pure and holy], and our Redemption [providing our ransom from eternal penalty for sin].