Can Christians go to hell?

[sdowney717]

More on the us and the 'our'
It was needful for the Christ to die due to our offenses, to bring to us our justification, and that is according to the will of the Holy Father.

Romans 4:25
who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 5:6-11New King James Version (NKJV)
Christ in Our Place
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

verse 9, we are saved from the wrath of God through Christ.
verse 10, while we were ENEMIES of God, we were reconciled to God through the death of Christ.

Shoots down the whole argument of people who say we must be righteous first to be acceptable to God, to no longer be God's enemies.

 

[sdowney717]

Christ is NOT made TO BE FOR US, OUR wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. You can't try to sneak in 'OUR' when it's not there.

1 John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

A man isn't righteous, nor born again unless he practices righteousness. If anyone says otherwise, they are deceiving us.

Romans 5:6-11New King James Version (NKJV)
Christ in Our Place
6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

verse 9, we are saved from the wrath of God through Christ.
verse 10, while we were ENEMIES of God, we were reconciled to God through the death of Christ.

Shoots down the whole argument of people who say we must be righteous first to be acceptable to God, to no longer be God's enemies. Why are you so resistant to being declared righteous by faith with God?

This fits in well with Ephesians 2 that says while we were following after Satan, God made us alive who were dead in sin.
He only did that because of His great love towards His people whom He foreknew whom He did predestine to be conformed to the image of His Son. Recall He works ALL THINGS according to the council of HIS OWN WILL, not our wills.

So God suddenly makes you alive because of His great love, and not due to anything that you have done to deserve such a great love.
Is it not God's right to do with a fallen creation what He wishes? To have mercy on whomever He wills? Who are you to reply back to God? That is becoming Satanic in character to question what God does and says about these things. Such people Christ dealt with also, and they He identifies as of an evil satanic character, they sinned most presumptuously against the LORD. And they suffered for it. They did not love Christ, infact the things Christ said offended them greatly enough to want to kill Christ by stoning.

 

[sdowney717]

1 John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Simply the question is, what comes first, being born of God then your declared righteous
A man believes first in his heart to be declared righteous.
The evil natural born heart can not be submitted to God's laws, should be quite plain,the evidence of this works all around the world today.
.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Christ said YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN FIRST, that is born from above to then in the process of being saved become righteous to enter the kingdom of God.
So then who is the prime mover? The man with the dead evil natural born heart, it can not be so!

Our being born of God is according to His own will beforehand and not our will. And it comes before our righteousness and justification.
People with evil hearts will not be confessing Christ, for scripture also says you CAN NOT SAY CHRIST is LORD EXCEPT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. So then He must then be at work within those who are going to confess Christ, before they do so. An evil Satanic led heart will not be confessing Christ as scripture says their MINDS ARE BLINDED BY SATAN. It takes God's miracle to open the eyes of the blind so that they can see the kingdom of God. Only God opens the eyes of the blind. Only God gives to them the new heart first, they do not make themselves born again. For to be born again really means to be born from above, and that only can come down from the Father of Lights.

Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you look a little further down at Matthew 13:49-50; Who are the wicked and who are the just that the angels shall divide? If you say the wicked are sinners, wouldn't that be everybody? Unless Paul was wrong when he said "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" in Romans 3:23.

First, you just side stepped my point in regards to morality. Do you not know who is good and who is bad today by what people do? Or do you define morality or the goodness of God by a mere belief alone? Meaning, do you think Rick is a nice guy if he has a belief on Jesus even if he beats or hurts children? Do you think he is a good guy? Do you think he should be a part of God's good kingdom? Did you not take a righteous action in accepting Christ to be saved? Or did God just save you even when you did nothing?

Second, what is Matthew 13:41-42 saying then (if it does not mean what it says with a plain straight forward reading)? Who is Jesus talking about? Does it not say the angels will gather those out of HIS KINGDOM? Is not the reason given as to why they are gathered out and thrown into the fire because of offense (sin) and iniquity? Are they not thrown into fire?

Three, as for Romans 3:23: Well, Paul was quoting Psalms 14. He was referencing the Gentiles. For in the Old Testament, the Gentiles were referred to as fools who did not know God (generally speaking of course). Paul is saying the Gentiles are now able to come directly to God without becoming a Jew. They can both (Jew and Gentile) can come directly to Christ (even when they had lived a life of sin before being born again). That is the point he is making.

But if you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is talking about how even faithful saints are presently living in sin, then the 144,000 could not be without fault before the throne of God (Revelation 14:3-5) and no believer anywhere today can say they understand the things of God and or that they seek after Him. For Romans 3:11 says, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

In other words, if you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is saying that we are all sinners (including the faithful saint), then you must also believe Romans 3:11 that says that all believers have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.


...

 

[DeaconDean]

Q - #1: How many sins does it take before one loses their salvation?
1, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, 1000000, 1000000?

A - #1: It only takes one sin. For how many sins did it take for Adam to cause the fall of mankind or a separation between God and man? It only took one sin. For Jesus says if a man looks upon a woman in lust his whole body can be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says by your words you will be justified and by your words you can be condemned (Matthew 12:36-37). John says if one hates their brother they are like a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them (1 John 3:15). John says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). John makes no mention of another group of liars whereby this is not the case. In fact, Ananais and Sapphira had lied to the Holy Ghost and they died instantly for doing so. After this had happened, a great fear had fell upon the church (the body of believers) and all who heard about it. Now, if they were saved and in God's Kingdom, why would people be in fear? It doesn't make any sense. Paul said to live is Christ and to die is gain. So believers are not to be in fear of death. For Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

Now, can God forgive a ton of sin for a backslidden believer if they seek to repent? Yes, absolutely. But they have to be willing to repent, though. Abiding in sin with the thinking one is saved (while they are sinning) is a justification of evil because that would mean God would have to agree with your present and future willful act to do wrong with the thinking you are going to be rewarded by Him for Him allowing you to enter His Kingdom; For Jesus says, "Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of thy Lord."

Q - #2: Would you agree that God is Omnipotent?
(Your added comment: "I want you to think, really think and think hard before you answer this one.")

A - #2: There is nothing to think about. The answer is a "yes."

You and I serve two very different God's then.

If only one sin, can cost a person their salvation, then the answer to question two is that God, The Lord God Almighty is a very weak God.

You have done something, sin namely, that has taken you out of God's hand. You in the action of sinning, have made yourself more powerful than God. You have taken yourself out of the hand of the Omnipotent God!

Even the very power of sin, is more powerful than God.

Jesus said:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:28-29 (KJV)

One sin, as pre you:

"It only takes one sin."

Now we know, that not only is Peter in hell, for he commited deliberate willful sins in disobeying God's command, so is Paul who deliberately and willfully disobeyed the Holy Spirit.

And as a consequence, there are no "Christians" in the world today because there is not a single living soul on the face of the earth that has not, or will not sin.

But I no longer believe that. For it is unbiblical. How so? Well, first, God electing (i.e. Choosing us before time based on what He knows we will do) is not God drawing and regenerating us. The word "elect" or "election" is merely something God does before hand without a regeneration needed.

I see from this that you have an Arminian theology. Election based upon future actions of an individual. Jacobus Arminus, foreknowledge. John Wesley, both these believed that.

Jacbus Arminus said:

"5. MY OWN SENTIMENTS ON PREDESTINATION.

IV. To these succeeds the fourth decree, by which God decreed to save and damn certain particular persons. This decree has its foundation in the foreknowledge of God, by which he knew from all eternity those individuals who would, through his preventing grace, believe, and, through his subsequent grace would persevere, according to the before described administration of those means which are suitable and proper for conversion and faith; and, by which foreknowledge, he likewise knew those who would not believe and persevere."

Jacobus Arminius, Works, Volume 1, Orations of James Arminius, A Declaration of the Sentiments of Arminius, Chapter 1, Of Predestination, Section 5, My Own Sentiments On Predestination

See that?

"he knew from all eternity those...who would, believe,...and, those who would not believe"

And He does. But to base salvation, to base calling, election, foreknowledge, predestination on that, takes grace, and Christ out of the equasion.

And indeed if that is the case, then Christ died in vain. God looked forward seen that you would accept and believe the Gospel message is a salvation based upon something that you will do. It is a "works based salvation" and it is not Grace.

"One could argue that it literally means "foreknowledge" as in the sense of to know before-hand, and technically, that would also be correct. But the underlying issue is this, how does God "fore-know" them? Because according to verse 28, they were called or elected first. Why wouldn't the Lord know those whom he called? And it is because they were called first, that He "foreordained" them, and because He "foreordained" them, He predestinated them."

Donald G. Barnhouse, Romans, Vol. III, God's Freedom, Hendrickson Publishing, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1959,p. 158

From Kittles Theological Dictioinary, we read:

"In the NT, proginwskein; is referred to God. His foreknowledge, however, is an election or foreordination of His people (Rom. 8:29; 11:2) or Christ (1 Pet. 1:20) (> ginwskw, 698, 706). In Pastor Hermae, mandata, 4, 3, 4 it simply means God's foreknowledge (cf. prognwstv in 2 Cl. 9:9). On the basis of prophecy the word proginwskein can be used of believers in 2 Pet. 3:17, also as Pastor Hermae, similitudines, 7,5 > eklegw. Another possible meaning in Greek is that of knowing earlier, i.e., than the time speaking (cf. Demosthenes of Athens, 29, 58; Aristotle, Rhetorica, II, 21, p. 1394b, 11; Josephus, Bella Judiacum, 6,8). This is found in Acts 26:5, where the meaning is strengthened by the addition of anwqen. In Justin God's proginwskein is Hid foreknowledge (Apol. I, 28, 2 etc.) and the proegnwsmenoi are believers (Apol. I, 45, 1 etc.). The polemic against determinism, however, shows that the OT view has been abandoned (Dial., 140, 4). As One who simply knows beforehand, God is called prognwstv in Apol., I, 44, 11 etc. as is also Christ in Dial., 35, 7; 82, 1. There is also reference to prophetic foreknowledge in Apol., I, 43, 1; 49, 6 etc. Tatian, of Syria, in Oratio ad Graecos, 19, 3, speaks of Apollo in the same terms, so that what we have here is the Greek understanding."

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, prognwskein, p. 457, Rudolph Bultmann commenting.


Romans 8:28-29 tells us that God chose us first, and because He chose us, He knew us, and predestinated us.

One little word in the Greek makes this a true statement.

It flows like a river.

"ὅτι" rendered "for" is a conjection, it serves to link words and/or clauses and/or sentences.

"to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son," -Rom. 8:28-29 (KJV)

"τοῖς κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν. ὅτι οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισεν συμμόρφους τῆς εἰκόνος τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ, -Rom 8:28-29 (GNT)

"to those according to purpose called being For whom He foreknew also He predestinated conformed to the image of the Son"

They were "called" and because they were, they were forenown, and because they were foreknown, they were predestinated.

Now, how on Earth does Calvinism make any sense when one reads the words that are enlarged and bolded in this above verse?

My biggest problem is you relying on modern versions.

I refer back to the original Greek.

On one hand you are defending that a believer will always sin by saying that 1 John 1:8 is suggesting that we will always have have sin in our life and yet on the other hand you are contradicting that notion by saying 1 John 3:8 is a means of generally walking uprightly and not being characterized as living like a devil.

I never said that, I have quoted or paraphrased what Paul said in Romans 7.

Christians aren't perfect, and wont be until Christ returns and we are made like Him.

Paul on the way to Rome to face Caesar, said: "sin that dwelleth in me." This was written many years after his Damascus road experience.

That is why John placed 1:8-10 where he did. Christians will sin, the same as Paul and Peter. But anybody who makes it a practice to sin, is not saved. That is why 3:8 is placed where it is. But you cannot understand that.

A - #4: Well, because 1 John 1:8 is not teaching that we will always have sin in our life. 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the believer about those false sessionists (or those who were trying to seduce them - See 1 John 2:26). In other words, 1 John 1:8 is saying "if we say we have no sin when we do sin, we are deceiving ourselves." Meaning it is warning us to not think that sin does not exist for us if we do sin. For 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the believer today not to be deceived into thinking like the Christian Scientist who thinks that sin is an illusion and does not exist. 1 John 1:8 is also a warning to the believer today to deny the existence of sin by thinking that while they may sin physically, they cannot sin spiritually because Jesus paid for their sins in both the present and the future. John's solution to this is 1 John 1:9 by a believer confessing their sin. This is in line with 1 John 1:7 that says we are to walk in the light as he is in the light whereby the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Walking in the light of Jesus is forsaking one's sins and walking uprightly. It is how we know we are in Him (1 John 2:3-4). While the Lord can forgive a lot and while believers can struggle with sin from time to time, their natural state of walking with the Lord thru out their entire life in Christ is not characterized by a life of sin because it is Jesus's good work and fruit that will flow thru their life (and not sin). For Jesus is in the business of transforming lives. Yes, God working in the life of a believer may not always be an overnight or instant change for some, but by His power and grace, they can learn to walk uprightly and in their good ways (Not with the thinking that they can sin and still be saved, but with the thinking that they will overcome their sin in this life).

Matthew Henry wrote:

"1 John 1:8. We must beware of deceiving ourselves in denying or excusing our sins. The more we see them the more we shall esteem and value the remedy. If we deny them, the truth is not in us, either the truth that is contrary to such denial (we lie in denying our sin), or the truth of religion, is not in us. The Christian religion is the religion of sinners, of such as have sinned, and in whom sin in some measure still dwells. The Christian life is a life of continued repentance, humiliation for and mortification of sin, of continual faith in, thankfulness for, and love to the Redeemer, and hopeful joyful expectation of a day of glorious redemption, in which the believer shall be fully and finally acquitted, and sin abolished for ever. 2. If we say, We have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us, 1 John 1:10. The denial of our sin not only deceives ourselves, but reflects dishonour upon God. It challenges his veracity. He has abundantly testified of, and testified against, the sin of the world. And the Lord said in his heart (determined thus with himself), I will not again curse the ground (as he had then lately done) for man's sake; for (or, with the learned bishop Patrick, though ) the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth, Genesis 8:21. But God has given his testimony to the continued sin and sinfulness of the world, by providing a sufficient effectual sacrifice for sin, that will be needed in all ages, and to the continued sinfulness of believers themselves by requiring them continually to confess their sins, and apply themselves by faith to the blood of that sacrifice. And therefore, if we say either that we have not sinned or do not yet sin, the word of God is not in us, neither in our minds, as to the acquaintance we should have with it, nor in our hearts, as to the practical influence it should have upon us.

II. The apostle then instructs the believer in the way to the continued pardon of his sin. Here we have, 1. His duty in order thereto: If we confess our sins, 1 John 1:9. Penitent confession and acknowledgment of sin are the believer's business, and the means of his deliverance from his guilt. And, 2. His encouragement thereto, and assurance of the happy issue. This is the veracity, righteousness, and clemency of God, to whom he makes such confession: He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, 1 John 1:9. God is faithful to his covenant and word, wherein he has promised forgiveness to penitent believing confessors. He is just to himself and his glory who has provided such a sacrifice, by which his righteousness is declared in the justification of sinners. He is just to his Son who has not only sent him for such service, but promised to him that those who come through him shall be forgiven on his account. By his knowledge (by the believing apprehension of him) shall my righteous servant justify many, Isaiah 53:11. He is clement and gracious also, and so will forgive, to the contrite confessor, all his sins, cleanse him from the guilt of all unrighteousness, and in due time deliver him from the power and practice of it"

Source

I can see that this is going nowhere.

So I'll bid you farewell.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Please re-read Psalms 51 again (a little more closely). David did not continue to live in a sinful lifestyle the rest of His life and yet also receive the mercy and good grace of God (while sinning). David was righteous because he acted righteously by confessing and forsaking his sin. He did not seek to continue to live in sin with the thinking he was saved.

Here again, I suggest that you re-read that passage.

In fact, when we look at a timeline, we see that Psa. 51 was written after 2 Sam. 12:13 where he was actually forgiven.

And being as such, if he was already forgiven, where was the joy?

Thanks. But no thanks. If these books would lead me to think of salvation and sin in the same way you do, I want no part in reading such books. For I am getting the impression that you are defending sin on some level (even though at other times you appear to not do so).

I have never condoned sin. What you have failed to see is that Christians even after the point of salvation sin. That is a fact as seen in the examples from scripture in David, Moses, Peter, Paul.

And your constant interpretation of 1 Jn. 3:8 makes anybody, anybody, even "Christians" who might slip up and sin, whether intentionally or accidentally, of the devil.

Jesus also told us to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. Again, if we could not be perfect, then Jesus would have been telling a lie because he would in effect be telling us to do something that we could never actually acheive.

And yet, that is exactly what your theology is leading you and your telling us. (cf. 1 Jn. 3:8)

1 Peter 4:1 says they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin. This means that those who are persecuted for Christ's sake physically for righteousness sake have ceased from sin or those who have suffered greatly in denying themselves and picking up their crosses are truly following Jesus.

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.

David hid God's Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord.

Jesus tells us to pray so as not to be led into temptation. What is the whole point of praying

And yet, Paul tells us that sin is still a part of us even after salvation. (cf. Rom. 7)

Jesus says no man can serve two masters. For he will hate the one and love the other. Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin. A person who is a slave to something means that they have a master to that thing that they are being a slave to. Meaning if something is controlling your life that is bad, it is not something that is from God and His Kingdom but it is from another kingdom. Paul says in Romans 6 that you are either a servant or slave to righteousness (that leads to eternal life) or you are a servant or slave to sin (that leads to death).

See, that is funny. You deny that you espouse "Entire Sanctification", but at the same time you post this.

Again, has the salvation event so eradicated sin in your life that it is impossible to sin whether willfully or accidently?

Even Paul admitted that still, there was the conflict in him between sin and holiness. (cf Rom. 7:25)

Now you are giving me the impression that you believe in "OSAS Lite." That a believer is characterized as living holy. If they do not live holy then they were never saved or born againt to begin with. However, before you have given me the impression that a believer can live immorally by your asking a question of how many sins does it take for you to lose your salvation. This means that living morally does not really matter.

What a waste this is.

Repentance means not confessing sins to God and asking forgiveness of them, but it is also marked by a change in mind and actions. In the above example, I see no true repentance, for while a confession was made, there was no resulting change in mind or actions.

The bulk of Romans 7 is Paul talking about his experience of when he was a Pharisee (obeying a form of Works Alone Salvationism) before he was a Christian.

Huh...

There is no definitive answer to that. But I'll admit, in nearly 42 years since I was saved, I have never heard that.

"When I say that Romans 7:14–25 describes Paul’s Christian experience, I don’t mean his steady-state experience. I mean that this sort of defeat happens to Paul. For example, when he says, “If I do what I do not want, . . . it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me” (Romans 7:16–17), he is referring to an occasion in life, not the totality of life.

Or, when he says, “I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members” (Romans 7:23), he does not mean that he lives in the steady-state “captivity.” He means captivity happens to him.

So when I describe Romans 7:14–25 as “Christian experience,” I don’t mean “ideal” experience, or “normal” steady-state experience. I mean that when a genuine Christian does the very thing he hates (Romans 7:15), this is what really happened to Paul the Christian in moments of weakness and defeat."

Link

So Paul was still a Pharisee in Acts 21 and 23?

I'm not even going to dignify that with an answer.

I am in no way interested in talking about my personal life here and or seeking any kind of glory for myself. This is not Facebook; And I prefer to do my good works in secret before the Father. The Bible's stand on morality and how believer's are supposed to live (so as to be right with God) is true regardless of my life.

Evidently you don't sin anymore. Your walk with God, in this life, in righteousness, has put to a place where you cannot and do not sin anymore.

Sin is sin. It does not matter if it is done willingly or accidently. There were provisions in the "Law" even for sins done out of ignorance. (cf Lev. 4:2)

My position: Christians are going to sin. Its inevitable. By your standard, I'm a proponent of antinominanism. No matter how hard we try to walk in righteousness, to do what is right in God's eyes and according to the NT, we will slip, we will stumble. This is evidenced by the Apostles Peter and Paul. A person who continues to sin after the point of salvation, was never really saved to begin with.

Your position: one sin, just one, will cost you your eternal salvation. It will send a Christian to hell. Your interpretation of 1 Jn. 3:8 is anybody who sins, not only lose their salvation, but makes them "of the devil". One sin, the power of one sin not only will cost you your salvation, whether willfully or accidently, but it also makes man and sin more powerful that the Omnipotent God. By the act of you sinning, you have taken yourself out of God's hand which scripture says can't happen. And another thing that happens as a result of a Christian sinning, is that it negates what is written Philippians 1:6. God, rather Jesus, will give up on you. He says He has begun a good work in you and will see it through to completion. The act, the power of one sin, stops this, stops what Paul says Jesus will do.

Good luck with your theology.

Good luck with your man centered "foreknowledge".

One final word.

Folks, Charles H. Spurgeon wrote:

"Now we must go a step further. We have no time to drive these arguments home with any more detail. The sheep are safe, next, by outer injuries being prevented. “No one can snatch them out of my hand.”

Many will tug at them, but none shall snatch them away. The devil will give many a horrible tug and pull, to get them away; but he shall never take them out of the great Shepherd’s hand. Their old friends, and the memory of their old sins will come, and tug at them very hard, and very cunningly; but the Savior says, “No one can snatch them out of my hand.”

So, first, here is their security: they are in his hand; that is, in his possession, and he clutches them, as a man holds something in his hand, and says, “It is mine.” Neither shall anyone take them away from being under his protection. Never shall they be snatched away from Christ. When he says this, he pledges his honor to preserve them, for if one could be snatched out of his hand, then the devils in hell would rejoice, and say, “He could not keep them. He said that he would, but he could not. We have managed to snatch this one, or that one, out of the pierced hand of their Redeemer.” But such a horrible exultation shall never be heard throughout the ages of eternity. “They shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.”

Some one wickedly said, “They may get out of his hand all by themselves.” But how can this be true, when the first sentence is, “They shall never perish”? Treat Scripture honestly and candidly, and you will admit that the promise “they shall never perish” shuts out the idea of perishing by going out of the Lord’s hand by their own act and deed. “They shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” Who can loosen the grip of that hand which was pierced with the nail for me? My Lord Jesus bought me at too dear a price to ever let me go. He loves me so much that his whole omnipotence will work with that hand, and unless there is something greater than the Godhead, I cannot be snatched away from that dear, tight-fisted grip."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[EmSw]

Folks, Charles H. Spurgeon wrote:

"Now we must go a step further. We have no time to drive these arguments home with any more detail. The sheep are safe, next, by outer injuries being prevented. “No one can snatch them out of my hand.”

Many will tug at them, but none shall snatch them away. The devil will give many a horrible tug and pull, to get them away; but he shall never take them out of the great Shepherd’s hand. Their old friends, and the memory of their old sins will come, and tug at them very hard, and very cunningly; but the Savior says, “No one can snatch them out of my hand.”

So, first, here is their security: they are in his hand; that is, in his possession, and he clutches them, as a man holds something in his hand, and says, “It is mine.” Neither shall anyone take them away from being under his protection. Never shall they be snatched away from Christ. When he says this, he pledges his honor to preserve them, for if one could be snatched out of his hand, then the devils in hell would rejoice, and say, “He could not keep them. He said that he would, but he could not. We have managed to snatch this one, or that one, out of the pierced hand of their Redeemer.” But such a horrible exultation shall never be heard throughout the ages of eternity. “They shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.”

Some one wickedly said, “They may get out of his hand all by themselves.” But how can this be true, when the first sentence is, “They shall never perish”? Treat Scripture honestly and candidly, and you will admit that the promise “they shall never perish” shuts out the idea of perishing by going out of the Lord’s hand by their own act and deed. “They shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.” Who can loosen the grip of that hand which was pierced with the nail for me? My Lord Jesus bought me at too dear a price to ever let me go. He loves me so much that his whole omnipotence will work with that hand, and unless there is something greater than the Godhead, I cannot be snatched away from that dear, tight-fisted grip."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

If nothing or no one can snatch anyone out of His pierced hand, how did the lost sheep get out of that tight-fisted grip? That grip must have had a weakness.

 

[EmSw]

Nor does a man practice righteousness unless he is righteous and born again.

That's not what John says and you know it.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

The man who practices righteousness (or, does good), is righteous. If a man practices unrighteousness (or, does evil) is unrighteous.

"The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." – Psalm 14:2-3 (Other, related scriptures on request).

I see you conveniently left out the first verse. Why? Did you do this on purpose?

1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none who does good.

Then we can read the rest of the chapter and see this isn't speaking of everyone.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call on the Lord?
5 There they are in great fear, for God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You shame the counsel of the poor, but the Lord is his refuge.

These 'fools' are workers of iniquity, they 'eat up' God's people, and do not call on the Lord.
Then we see that God is with the generation of the RIGHTEOUS. So, there are people who are RIGHTEOUS, and God is with them.

Please do not take passages out of context and make your doctrine from them.

Since the Lord makes it clear that being and acting righteous does not correspond to the natural condition of fallen man ------ being "born again" or becoming a "new creation" is a prerequisite to accomplishing those things having to do with righteousness.

The order cannot be reversed so as to teach that being or acting righteous accomplishes being born again.

The scriptures preclude such teaching.

Why do you insist on this? The OT is full of righteous people in their natural condition.

A man is not born of God unless he practices righteousness. So how can one be born of God without practicing righteousness?

I for one, choose not to be deceived, as John says.

 

[GillDouglas]

If nothing or no one can snatch anyone out of His pierced hand, how did the lost sheep get out of that tight-fisted grip? That grip must have had a weakness.

Wayne, there is a difference between being snatched up/lost forever and one who stumbles and falters in a time of trial. Do you not know of any Christian that has ever stumbled in their walk with Christ? Is there a point in a Christians life that they become so perfect that they are no longer in need of Christ to stand?

Why would YOU weaken the promise that whoever is His, given to Him by the authority of the Father, He shall not lose!?

 

[GillDouglas]

First, you just side stepped my point in regards to morality. Do you not know who is good and who is bad today by what people do? Or do you define morality or the goodness of God by a mere belief alone? Meaning, do you think Rick is a nice guy if he has a belief on Jesus even if he beats or hurts children? Do you think he is a good guy? Do you think he should be a part of God's good kingdom? Did you not take a righteous action in accepting Christ to be saved? Or did God just save you even when you did nothing?

Second, what is Matthew 13:41-42 saying then (if it does not mean what it says with a plain straight forward reading)? Who is Jesus talking about? Does it not say the angels will gather those out of HIS KINGDOM? Is not the reason given as to why they are gathered out and thrown into the fire because of offense (sin) and iniquity? Are they not thrown into fire?

Three, as for Romans 3:23: Well, Paul was quoting Psalms 14. He was referencing the Gentiles. For in the Old Testament, the Gentiles were referred to as fools who did not know God (generally speaking of course). Paul is saying the Gentiles are now able to come directly to God without becoming a Jew. They can both (Jew and Gentile) can come directly to Christ (even when they had lived a life of sin before being born again). That is the point he is making.

But if you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is talking about how even faithful saints are presently living in sin, then the 144,000 could not be without fault before the throne of God (Revelation 14:3-5) and no believer anywhere today can say they understand the things of God and or that they seek after Him. For Romans 3:11 says, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

In other words, if you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is saying that we are all sinners (including the faithful saint), then you must also believe Romans 3:11 that says that all believers have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.

...

Jason,

Good and bad are relative terms. What is good for some, is not good for all. Who are we to judge what is good and what is bad? Do we know every purpose of every action under God's authority? Was it good that Job was tortured, and his children being killed? Was it good that Christ was beaten, stabbed, and nailed to a cross? Again, relative and ALL for His glory.

You have no faith in Christ. None. What you have faith in is your ability to remain "righteous". It hurts to say this but you are worse than an unbeliever. The reason I believe this is because of the way you describe a true Christian believer. You always ask the question regarding a believer doing evil and being saved. You have no idea what it is to be a follower of Christ.

Anything I tell you regarding these things, you will just ignore. So I will leave you with some verses to consider, and I pray that if you read them that God might lift the veil from your hard heart.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (John 14:26)

"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." (Romans 8:9)

"And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual." (1 Corinthians 2:13)

"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words." (Romans 8:26)

'Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”' (John 6:28-29)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it." (1 Corinthians 10:13)

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You and I serve two very different God's then.

Yes, I know. I believe the God of the two most popular versions of Eternal Security (and not the third version of OSAS) ignores morality or the goodness of the Lord. For Classic OSAS teaches you can sin as much as you like and still be saved; And Mid Range OSAS teaches that you have to generally live a holy life but dying in one or two unrepentant sins (like lying or lusting after a woman) does not mean one is not saved. Both of these versions of OSAS seek to make an excuse for sin (by which God cannot agree with).

If only one sin, can cost a person their salvation, then the answer to question two is that God, The Lord God Almighty is a very weak God.

No. I am sorry. You have things backwards. It means the exact opposite. It means He is strong and stands behind a standard of holiness or righteousness. It simply means God is not going to agree with a believer's wrong thinking that they can do evil and yet be rewarded with entering His Kingdom. Again, God says "well done good and faithful servant, enter thou into the joy of they Lord." (Matthew 25:23). Your belief runs contrary to these words of the Lord.

You have done something, sin namely, that has taken you out of God's hand. You in the action of sinning, have made yourself more powerful than God. You have taken yourself out of the hand of the Omnipotent God!

Even the very power of sin, is more powerful than God.

Jesus said:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:28-29 (KJV)

And I know why you didn't quote verse 27. It is because it refutes your wrong interpretation on this passage. It says,

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" (John 10:27).

Did you catch that? This promise of not being snatched out the Lord's hand applies to those type of sheep who KNOW Jesus and who FOLLOW Jesus.

This is the same thing that 1 John 2:3 says,

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." (1 John 2:3).

In fact, verse 4 says,
"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

One sin, as pre you:

"It only takes one sin."

Now we know, that not only is Peter in hell, for he commited deliberate willful sins in disobeying God's command, so is Paul who deliberately and willfully disobeyed the Holy Spirit.

And as a consequence, there are no "Christians" in the world today because there is not a single living soul on the face of the earth that has not, or will not sin.

This is where Omniscience comes into play. God knows everything. God knows the hearts of each person. If God sees that a person is seeking to do what is truly right by Him, and a person is honestly struggling with sin and or has honestly made a mistake on their road to recovery to walking uprightly with Him, then God will of course shower His mercy upon them. But if they are seeking to do evil and or have an evil mindset in doing what is wrong and never believe or seek to walk uprightly with the Lord, then they are holding onto their old man of sin (who is a part of the devil's kingdom). They truly do not love God in wanting to serve the Lord in righteousness and goodness. They want to serve two masters. But Jesus says you cannot serve two masters. For you will you hate the one and love the other.

I see from this that you have an Arminian theology. Election based upon future actions of an individual. Jacobus Arminus, foreknowledge. John Wesley, both these believed that.

Jacbus Arminus said:

"5. MY OWN SENTIMENTS ON PREDESTINATION.

IV. To these succeeds the fourth decree, by which God decreed to save and damn certain particular persons. This decree has its foundation in the foreknowledge of God, by which he knew from all eternity those individuals who would, through his preventing grace, believe, and, through his subsequent grace would persevere, according to the before described administration of those means which are suitable and proper for conversion and faith; and, by which foreknowledge, he likewise knew those who would not believe and persevere."

Jacobus Arminius, Works, Volume 1, Orations of James Arminius, A Declaration of the Sentiments of Arminius, Chapter 1, Of Predestination, Section 5, My Own Sentiments On Predestination

See that?

I prefer to study the Word of God (with the help of the Spirit) and I do not prefer to study the comments of believers (who came later).

"he knew from all eternity those...who would, believe,...and, those who would not believe"

And He does. But to base salvation, to base calling, election, foreknowledge, predestination on that, takes grace, and Christ out of the equasion.

And indeed if that is the case, then Christ died in vain. God looked forward seen that you would accept and believe the Gospel message is a salvation based upon something that you will do. It is a "works based salvation" and it is not Grace.

So you are saying that you took no action (work) of any kind in coming to the Lord? That one day you just woke up and you knew you were saved? Okay. Also, why would the Lord say...."Well done good and faithful servant enter thou into the joy of thy Lord."? If what your pushing was true, then the Lord would say.... "Despite your wickedness my unfaithful servant enter thou into the joy of thy Lord." But did Jesus or God's Word ever say something like this? No. Surely not.

"One could argue that it literally means "foreknowledge" as in the sense of to know before-hand, and technically, that would also be correct. But the underlying issue is this, how does God "fore-know" them? Because according to verse 28, they were called or elected first. Why wouldn't the Lord know those whom he called? And it is because they were called first, that He "foreordained" them, and because He "foreordained" them, He predestinated them."

Donald G. Barnhouse, Romans, Vol. III, God's Freedom, Hendrickson Publishing, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1959,p. 158

From Kittles Theological Dictioinary, we read:

"In the NT, proginwskein; is referred to God. His foreknowledge, however, is an election or foreordination of His people (Rom. 8:29; 11:2) or Christ (1 Pet. 1:20) (> ginwskw, 698, 706). In Pastor Hermae, mandata, 4, 3, 4 it simply means God's foreknowledge (cf. prognwstv in 2 Cl. 9:9). On the basis of prophecy the word proginwskein can be used of believers in 2 Pet. 3:17, also as Pastor Hermae, similitudines, 7,5 > eklegw. Another possible meaning in Greek is that of knowing earlier, i.e., than the time speaking (cf. Demosthenes of Athens, 29, 58; Aristotle, Rhetorica, II, 21, p. 1394b, 11; Josephus, Bella Judiacum, 6,8). This is found in Acts 26:5, where the meaning is strengthened by the addition of anwqen. In Justin God's proginwskein is Hid foreknowledge (Apol. I, 28, 2 etc.) and the proegnwsmenoi are believers (Apol. I, 45, 1 etc.). The polemic against determinism, however, shows that the OT view has been abandoned (Dial., 140, 4). As One who simply knows beforehand, God is called prognwstv in Apol., I, 44, 11 etc. as is also Christ in Dial., 35, 7; 82, 1. There is also reference to prophetic foreknowledge in Apol., I, 43, 1; 49, 6 etc. Tatian, of Syria, in Oratio ad Graecos, 19, 3, speaks of Apollo in the same terms, so that what we have here is the Greek understanding."

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, prognwskein, p. 457, Rudolph Bultmann commenting.

Again, I am not interested in some ramblings from some guy. I want you to prove it to me using simple and basic language in your own words within English. Talk to me plainly.

Romans 8:28-29 tells us that God chose us first, and because He chose us, He knew us, and predestinated us.

One little word in the Greek makes this a true statement.

It flows like a river.

"ὅτι" rendered "for" is a conjection, it serves to link words and/or clauses and/or sentences.

"to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son," -Rom. 8:28-29 (KJV)

"τοῖς κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν. ὅτι οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισεν συμμόρφους τῆς εἰκόνος τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ, -Rom 8:28-29 (GNT)

"to those according to purpose called being For whom He foreknew also He predestinated conformed to the image of the Son"

They were "called" and because they were, they were forenown, and because they were foreknown, they were predestinated.

In Romans 8:28-30, God is referring to only those saints (who acted of their own free will) to be faithful to the Lord up until the end of their lives. God is not talking about all the "called" here. For Matthew 22:14 interupts the pattern (or flow of the river) in Romans 8:28-30. For it says, "...many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:14).

My biggest problem is you relying on modern versions.

But the KJV is my ultimate authority. I believe the KJV to be the perfect Word of God for our day (and that it does not contain any errors). I merely look at Modern Translations as a way of updating the 1600's English. I look at them as sort of like sifting thru the dirt to get to the gold that is within the KJV.

I refer back to the original Greek.

I occasionally will do this, too (As God leads me). But it is important I understand my Bible in the language that is is written within today before I dig deeper into the original languages, though. For nobody today has grown up speaking and writing Biblical Greek. Folks are only guessing as to what the Biblical Greek says. It is a dead language.

But the best way to know what the Greek says is by first understanding what your Bible says in English first. For the KJV and the original languages do not conflict with each other.

I never said that, I have quoted or paraphrased what Paul said in Romans 7.

No doubt you believe Paul said the following words as a Christian and not from his experience as a Pharisee.

"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me" (Romans 7:21).​

Is that right? Well, if that is true, then what do you think 1 John 1:8 says (In your own words)?

Christians aren't perfect, and wont be until Christ returns and we are made like Him.

This is a direct violation of the very words of Jesus.

"If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me" (Matthew 19:21).

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:48).

Paul on the way to Rome to face Caesar, said: "sin that dwelleth in me." This was written many years after his Damascus road experience.

That is why John placed 1:8-10 where he did. Christians will sin, the same as Paul and Peter. But anybody who makes it a practice to sin, is not saved. That is why 3:8 is placed where it is. But you cannot understand that.

No. 1 John 3:15 says anyone who hates his brother is like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding within them. 1 John 3:15 does not say anything about how often one has to hate their brother in order for eternal life not to be abiding within them. It simply says if one hates their brother then they no eternal life within them. It does not lay out the intense conditions that you are placing upon it.

Matthew Henry wrote:

"1 John 1:8. We must beware of deceiving ourselves in denying or excusing our sins.

But these words run contrary to what you have said before. You said before that you will always sin over the course of your life. You are saying that the natural state of the believer is to always sin. This is making an excuse to sin. For the 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God. Why can't you be found without fault before the throne of God?

I can see that this is going nowhere.

So I'll bid you farewell.

Then why did you reply to another post of mine if you are bidding me farewell and you believe this conversation is not going anywhere? You are not making any sense, my friend.


...

 

[sdowney717]

Proof that Christ's sheep are known to Christ beforehand, that is before the person knows they are one of His sheep is found in this single verse. Since the other sheep HE HAS are not yet brung - drawn to God is shown by Christ saying, 'them also I must bring', and they will hear my voice.

Christ brings together the sheep of Christ into one flock with Him as the one shepherd. Christ's promise is that His sheep hear His voice and all the sheep are brought to, made safe with God.

1. Exist these other sheep is true.
2. Not of this fold, so they have not yet heard Christ speak to them.
3. Them he will also bring, just He has done with the original fold of saved sheep.
4. They will hear Christ speak to them and respond in belief, so then all other sheep becoming saved, they also He brings to salvation.
5. There will be only one flock of sheep with only one shepherd, so then the other sheep are joined into the original fold and are all saved, led to this by Christ Himself.

John 10:16New King James Version (NKJV)
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

The context for reference

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.
13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[DeaconDean]

I prefer to study the Word of God (with the help of the Spirit) and I do not prefer to study the comments of believers (who came later).

That says it all.

You just showed who and what you are.

Good and bad are relative terms. What is good for some, is not good for all. Who are we to judge what is good and what is bad? Do we know every purpose of every action under God's authority? Was it good that Job was tortured, and his children being killed? Was it good that Christ was beaten, stabbed, and nailed to a cross? Again, relative and ALL for His glory.

You have no faith in Christ. None. What you have faith in is your ability to remain "righteous". It hurts to say this but you are worse than an unbeliever. The reason I believe this is because of the way you describe a true Christian believer. You always ask the question regarding a believer doing evil and being saved. You have no idea what it is to be a follower of Christ.

Amen! And very well said.

I guess somebody just made my ignore list.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That says it all.

You just showed who and what you are.

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15).

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him." (1 John 2:27).

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." (Acts 17:11).

Amen! And very well said.

I guess somebody just made my ignore list.

Now, you just jumped ship off defending God's standard of morality by agreeing with someone who thinks morals are relative?
So I made your ignored list because you cannot defend a concept of morality or God's goodness?
Were you not before defending the idea that we have to live righteously according to 1 John 3:7-10?
How can you uphold God's standard of goodness if you are asking questions like "how many sins does it take to lose your salvation"?
Would that not lead people to think that they can sin and still be saved (Thereby breaking the standard of God's righteous ways)?


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason,

Good and bad are relative terms.

Not according to God. For it is written....

5. "...God
6 ... will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God."
(Romans 2:5-11).

Who are we to judge what is good and what is bad?

So if you believe that we cannot judge what is good and bad, then why are you judging me in thinking that I am bad?
You know I can report, your post, right?
But I am not going to do that.
Instead, I am going to pray for you because that is what Jesus would want me to do.

Do we know every purpose of every action under God's authority? Was it good that Job was tortured, and his children being killed? Was it good that Christ was beaten, stabbed, and nailed to a cross? Again, relative and ALL for His glory.

Well, there is a vast difference in God allowing sinful situations (that come from man and not God) to be used for His ultimate plan for good vs. (versus) man choosing to sin. See, God never wants a person to sin; And God cannot agree with sin and evil. God is good. God is holy. The evil that men do or the sinful things of this world are changed into something good by God and they are never changed into something sinful. That is where the belief of Eternal Security fails. This is why the Bible says God can work all things together for GOOD. This would be for good and not evil. But there will come a time when evil will no longer exist, though.

Also, Jesus was a type of the Passover Lamb. So his sacrifice was according to the Law (Which was a way to atone for sin). Jesus did not die of some kind of death that had no meaning or no purpose. His death was for the payment of all of mankind's sins. His suffering was for the sins of the entire world. For he was wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities. But this sacrifice can only be applied to a person if they walk in the light as he is in the light (See 1 John 1:7).

In other words, Jesus (God) or the Father did not do anything remotely sinful or wrong when the Son had died upon the cross for our sins. It was a picture of love and not darkness. So Christ's sacrifice IS NOT an example of moral relativity (Whereby morals are relative or subject to change based on the situation).

You have no faith in Christ. None. What you have faith in is your ability to remain "righteous". It hurts to say this but you are worse than an unbeliever. The reason I believe this is because of the way you describe a true Christian believer. You always ask the question regarding a believer doing evil and being saved. You have no idea what it is to be a follower of Christ.

Well, first, in the name of Jesus: I bind your words of false judgment towards me.
Second, I do believe in Jesus as my Savior. I believe that a person cannot be saved initially without first calling upon the Lord to save them. This is a trusting upon God and His grace to save us. This is how we are ultimately saved and even how we stay right with God. For if a believer sins, do they go and do more works to offset their evil? No. They first get their heart right with Jesus by confessing their sins to Him (trusting that He will forgive them by their humbleness of throwing themselves down before the Lord with a Godly sorrow). This confession of sin is done with the intent that they will not do that particular sin again. If this was not the case, then one is merely just paying empty lip service to the Lord (whereby they are not truly sorry over their sin towards God).

Anything I tell you regarding these things, you will just ignore. So I will leave you with some verses to consider, and I pray that if you read them that God might lift the veil from your hard heart.

And I will be praying for you to understand that there is such a thing called Morality and that we can trust and rely upon it. I will also pray for you to see that Eternal Security is not what you think it is, too.

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (John 14:26)

You don't even have to go far to see that the Bible does not support your belief.

"He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings ..." (John 14:24).

"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." (Romans 8:9)

Eternal Security Proponents believe they can be out of fellowship with Christ and still be saved. Yet, Romans 8:9 that you are quoting to me refutes that idea.

Anyways, here are some more verses that refute your belief in Eternal Security.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:1).

4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit."
(Romans 8:4-5).

'Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”' (John 6:28-29)

Believing in Jesus not only means believing in the person of Jesus but it means believing everything He taught and Commanded of us, too. Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord, if you do not what I say? (Luke 6:46).

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Paul is talking about Initial Salvation and Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism in Ephesians 2:8-9. Verse 10 is talking about Christ directed works (whereby it does not say they are optional). In fact, in James 2:24, the apostle James says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24). James is talking about Christ directed works done thru the believer. Paul is talking about Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism with no savior and or no grace. You are saying we are justified by "faith only." Yet, James says we are justified by works and not by faith only. I choose to believe Scripture and not you.

"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it." (1 Corinthians 10:13)

How does this verse even make sense with your belief? Many Eternal Security Proponents say they are always sinning according to 1 John 1:8. Doesn't God providing a way of escape for sin for you run contrary to your idea that you will always sin? Or do you believe it is possible to overcome sin in this life?

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (1 John 1:8-10)

Ah hah. Here we go. That cat is out of the bag now. It appears by your posting of this verse that you do most likely believe that 1 John 1:8 is saying that we will always have sin in our life, right? This makes it sound like God is on your side if you continue in sin. Is God the minister of unrighteousness? Surely not. God is good.

Anyways, 1 John 2:26 says that John was writing to the brethren of those false believers (or sessionists) who were trying to seduce them. One of these false ideas is that these sessionists believed was that sin did not exist for them. Christian Scientists today believe sin is an illusion. So 1 John 1:8 is a warning to them telling them that they cannot think that way. Meaning, if we say we have no sin if we do sin we are deceiving ourselves. The same truth applies to the Eternal Security Proponent who believes that they sin physically but yet they cannot sin spiritually because all their present and future sins are paid for by having a belief alone on the person of Jesus. This is why 1 John 1:9 follows verse 8. It is the solution to the wrong thinking from a person that sin does not exist in some way for them.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here again, I suggest that you re-read that passage.

In fact, when we look at a timeline, we see that Psa. 51 was written after 2 Sam. 12:13 where he was actually forgiven.

No. Let's take a look at what Psalms 51 says. It states,

"Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin" (Psalms 51:2).​

Okay. So how was David cleansed of all sin in 2 Samuel 12:13 if he is later asking God to cleanse him of his sin still in Psalms 51:2?

In other words, Samuel was saying in 2 Samuel 12:13 that David's sin was passed over in regards to him not dying physically and not spiritually. David's sin was not erased for all time in 2 Samuel 12:13. For God's Word says,

"David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has allowed your sin to pass [without further punishment]; you shall not die." (2 Samuel 12:13 AMP).

But this does not mean that the sin was gone for good. David still paid the price for his sin with the death of his son. If his sin was gone, then his son would not have died. Also, David still had to confess and ask the Lord to forgive him of his sin. David still had to ask God for a clean heart and a right spirit within him. David still had to ask for his iniquities to be cleansed. David still pleaded with God to not take His Holy Spirit from him. This would not be the case if he was already forgiven.

Side Note:

To put it to you another way, in 2 Samuel 12:13: God was saying that David would not have to die physically himself according to the Law for his transgressions of murder and adultery. This did not mean God was talking about his spiritual status with Him. For confession and reconciliation was expressed later by David towards God in Psalms 51.


...

 

[Marvin Knox]

Nor does a man practice righteousness unless he is righteous and born again.

That's not what John says and you know it.
1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Who said that it did?

The man who practices righteousness (or, does good), is righteous. If a man practices unrighteousness (or, does evil) is unrighteous.

Who said otherwise?

I see you conveniently left out the first verse. Why? Did you do this on purpose?...........Please do not take passages out of context and make your doctrine from them..................Why do you insist on this?

I said "other verses would be provided on request". Perhaps you missed that.

The passage for which the cross reference from the Psalms is applicable is Romans:39-10

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin; as it is written,"

Do you know of any other group of men than Jews and Gentiles to whom the passage from the Psalms could apply?

The passage applies to all men.

None of your squirming can change that fact just as no squirming can make salvation of the works of the law rather than of grace.

The OT is full of righteous people in their natural condition.

Who said there were not righteous people in the O.T.?

Who said that they were in their "natural condition"?

For what it's worth:

I have never held that some people in the O.T. were not regenerated.

I most certainly have never held the position that the day of Pentecost was the first time men were regenerated.

I do not believe that Pentecost was the giving of the Holy Spirit in a regenerative sense - if that's what you think I believe.

Salvation is by grace and not by works. That was as true in the O.T. as it is in the N.T.

The man who practices righteousness (or, does good), is righteous. If a man practices unrighteousness (or, does evil) is unrighteous.

You need to take a basic class in logic.

The passage in 1 John does indeed say exactly what you say.

"The man who practices righteousness (or, does good), is righteous. If a man practices unrighteousness (or, does evil) is unrighteous."

However, it does not logically teach what you wrongly infer that it does.

It does NOT say that a man becomes righteous by practicing righteousness.

It does not address what makes one man practice righteousness and another practice unrighteousness.

It does not address regeneration at all.

And it most certainly does NOT address the idea that you and others put forth that the new man can commit sin and be changed back again into the old man because he committed sin. In fact - the scripture is clear that the new man cannot sin.

By way of closing this contact between you and I - the fact that regeneration is the reason that men practice righteousness can be gleaned from a good practice of systematic theology. But then you don't believe in studying the scripture systematically - as you have said many times.

Which leaves us no place to go as always.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The passage for which the cross reference from the Psalms is applicable is Romans:39-10

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin; as it is written,"

Do you know of any other group of men than Jews and Gentiles to whom the passage from the Psalms could apply?

The passage applies to all men.

None of your squirming can change that fact just as no squirming can make salvation of the works of the law rather than of grace.

Who said there were not righteous people in the O.T.?

Who said that they were in their "natural condition"?

Romans 3:10-11, and Romans 3:23 is referring to all people in the fact that they were once sinners at some point in their life. For unbelievers, this would be their entire lives. For true believers this would be the life of when they were the old man and not the new man. But Romans 3:10-11 and Romans 3:23 is not talking about Total Depravity as you would like it to be, though. Romans 3 points to Psalms 14 about the fool who says there is no God. Meaning, it was a colorful expression of how the Gentiles were generally referred to as in the Old Testament. In other words, Paul's point in Romans 3 is that both Jews and Gentiles can now come to Christ equally. Paul's point was not Total Depravity in Romans 3. In fact, we know that the Gentiles had the capacity to repent and or believe in God of their own free will without a regeneration. For we see the Ninevites (i.e. the Gentiles) had repented at the preaching of Jonah. For in Jonah 3:6-10, we learn beforehand that God was planning to bring Wrath or Judgment upon the Ninevites, but because they repented, the Lord then decided to turn back from bringing Judgment upon them. This part of Scripture is a complicated mess to explain from the Calvinistic viewpoint. God did not ordain (force regenerate) the Ninevites to repent. They chose to repent (Which then in turn changed the actions of God). But if Calvinism was true: Then no Judgment would have ever endangered the Ninevites because God would have simply just planned on regenerating them to repent all along.

In fact, Jesus says,

""O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me" (Matthew 23:37 NLT).​

So here we see Jesus's will (i.e. God's will) and desire being thwarted by the desire of those in Jerusalem.

In addition, is it ever God's will that people should sin? No. Most certainly not. Then why are we living in world whereby sin exists? Does God approve of sin? No. Certainly not. So sin and this sinful world is not something God wanted. It was not a part of His goodness. Sin is something man chose. God merely allowed sin to temporarily exist within His universe so as to allow true love within his creation to exist. For if love is forced (by some kind of regeneration), then it is not true love. For we know that true love exists in a marriage if both couples agree to love each other. If the other partner forces their love upon the other (when the other person does not feel the same), then it is forced love and not true love.

...

 

[EmSw]

Who said that it did?

Who said otherwise?

Since the one who practices righteousness is righteous, is a man righteous if he doesn't practice righteousness?

I said "other verses would be provided on request". Perhaps you missed that.

I provided the passages myself, thank you.

Let's focus on the remainder of the chapter to actually see what it is saying. I will provide it below.

The passage for which the cross reference from the Psalms is applicable is Romans:39-10

"What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin; as it is written,"

Do you know of any other group of men than Jews and Gentiles to whom the passage from the Psalms could apply?

The passage applies to all men.

First, Romans 3 is taken from Psalm 14, not the other way around. Romans MUST say what Psalms intend or it becomes a man's interpretation. Here is the rest of Psalms 14 which reveals the truth of the chapter -

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call on the Lord?
5 There they are in great fear, for God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You shame the counsel of the poor, but the Lord is his refuge.

First we see it is speaking of a specific group of people. It's not a generalized statement. Do you agree? Verse one tells us who these people are. These are fools who have said there is no God. These fools 'eat up' God's people, work iniquity, and do not call on the Lord. Do you see this?

Then we have the generation of the righteous, total opposites of these fools. These righteous have God with them, and He is their refuge. So we do have two groups of people in this chapter.

Paul wanted to compare every man with the first group of fools, which is irrelevant to this chapter. Paul's opinion was that all were under sin, but that is not the premise of Psalm 14. Context, context, context.

This passage applies to fools who have said there is no God. So, I would say it does not apply to all men. Context, context, context. And Paul did not use a good practice of systematic theology.

None of your squirming can change that fact just as no squirming can make salvation of the works of the law rather than of grace.

Who said there were not righteous people in the O.T.?

Who said that they were in their "natural condition"?

Didn't Paul say there are none righteous? What do you actually believe, there were righteous in the OT, or there were none? You seem to float around with every wind that comes by.

Do you want to provide passages which state OT saints were saved by grace? I can show you plenty verses which state keeping the His commandments, His statutes, and His judgements brought life to those who observed them. You won't find one which states grace brought life. NOT ONE Marvin!

Deuteronomy 30:16
in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply;

If grace brought life to OT saints, why a new testament?

For what it's worth:

I have never held that some people in the O.T. were not regenerated.

I most certainly have never held the position that the day of Pentecost was the first time men were regenerated.

I do not believe that Pentecost was the giving of the Holy Spirit in a regenerative sense - if that's what you think I believe.

Salvation is by grace and not by works. That was as true in the O.T. as it is in the N.T.

Why isn't being born again mentioned in the OT? If you believe OT saints were born again, then you must also believe many OT saints became lost through their sinning. You are getting way too deep which will have you struggling to keep truth straight.

You need to take a basic class in logic.

The passage in 1 John does indeed say exactly what you say.

"The man who practices righteousness (or, does good), is righteous. If a man practices unrighteousness (or, does evil) is unrighteous."

I believe I'll pass on the logic you use. But thanks anyway.

However, it does not logically teach what you wrongly infer that it does.

It does NOT say that a man becomes righteous by practicing righteousness.

I will ask again, is a man righteous who does not practice righteousness?

It does not address what makes one man practice righteousness and another practice unrighteousness.

It does not address regeneration at all.

Really Marvin? Here is the verse again -

1 John 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

If you don't practice righteousness, you are not born of Him - see how simple that is?

I think it does address regeneration, despite your objection.

And it most certainly does NOT address the idea that you and others put forth that the new man can commit sin and be changed back again into the old man because he committed sin. In fact - the scripture is clear that the new man cannot sin.

A man is not changed back into an 'old man'. He never cast it away, laid it aside, nor put it off from himself. Here is what Paul said about the old man -

Ephesians 4
20 But you have not so learned Christ,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

If you have learned Christ and taught by Him, THAT YOU PUT OFF THE OLD MAN, your former behavior. If man doesn't put off, lay aside, nor cast off the old man, it will always be present to bring man back into its fold. It is only after one puts off the old man, that he can put on the new man.

So, if a man continues in sin, he is still living to the old man and hasn't cast if away from himself. He doesn't have to be changed back into the old man, it was there all along.

By way of closing this contact between you and I - the fact that regeneration is the reason that men practice righteousness can be gleaned from a good practice of systematic theology. But then you don't believe in studying the scripture systematically - as you have said many times.

Which leaves us no place to go as always.

Again, if a man does not practice righteousness, he is not regenerated. It's that simple.

I'll tell you this - you keep your man-made systematic theology, and I'll keep the Spirit of Truth to teach me.