Can Calvinists explain this verse?

Anto9us · Jul 31, 2017

You would like what scripture says, that they (Mark-takers) are not written in there...

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

ARE not written -- you may say they NEVER WERE -- I say they took the Mark and got blotted out.

Hammster · Jul 31, 2017

Anto9us said:
You would like what scripture says, that they (Mark-takers) are not written in there...

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

ARE not written -- you may say they NEVER WERE -- I say they took the Mark and got blotted out.

So again, you say but not scripture.

nonaeroterraqueous · Jul 31, 2017

Rubiks said:
Sola1517 said:

The fact that God didn't show them those miracles tells you what?

Click to expand...

Answer the title of this thread and I'll answer your question. deal?

A rhetorical question is "a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer" (Oxford Dictionaries). In other words, the question is your answer.

Answer Sola's question, and you'll have the answer to the title of your thread. It's that simple.

now faith · Jul 31, 2017

Anto9us said:
You would like what scripture says, that they (Mark-takers) are not written in there...

Rev 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

ARE not written -- you may say they NEVER WERE -- I say they took the Mark and got blotted out.

Well,it does speak of those who take the mark in revelation will be cast into the lake of fire.
But as well I can believe they never were due to this schripture:

Daniel: 12. 1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Those who are God's people that are living are delivered, the dead just or unjust are taken up as well.

So the living that is still on earth are sinners,and if they take the mark they are going to the lake of fire.

Paul confirms this:
1 Thessalonians: 4. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
He does not mention those in the Book,but his context is clear when he says and so shall we be forever with the lord.

Dale · Aug 1, 2017

sdowney717 said:
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Those who do His will are those in whom He has worked so that they believe in the Son.
God does not fail in this working of His. All God gives to Christ will come to Christ. And you can not enter into Christ any other way, salvation is a gift of God, not of yourself. All other ways are of robbers and thieves to try to gain entrance to His sheepfold. You must be drawn by God to Christ. and all God draws make it into the sheep pen.
We do come to Christ in belief after He gives us to Christ beforehand, this is simply the being predestined to be conformed part as Paul teaches in Romans 8.
We do this because He has made us born again and the Holy Spirit teaches us about the Son and so we then embrace Christ willingly, John 6:44-45.
John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

You are starting from the Calvinist assumption that God the Father is completely arbitrary in deciding who will and will not be drawn to Christ. Have you considered the possibility that God is not arbitrary in this decision? Suppose that someone who is not yet saved faces a moral choice and makes the right choice. As a result, God the Father invites them to come up to a higher level of understanding. Could this be what the Bible means by God drawing people to Christ?

jimmyjimmy · Aug 1, 2017

Dale said:
You are starting from the Calvinist assumption that God the Father is completely arbitrary in deciding who will and will not be drawn to Christ.

Calvinist don't think that, "God the Father is completely arbitrary in deciding". He has His reasons.

Ephesians 1:5

he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, (ESV)

AlexDTX · Aug 1, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Peter wrote to the 'beloved' who were 'elect'
So when we read God is not willing that any of 'you' perish, we need to keep in context to who Peter is referring, which is His elect whom He foreknew as his own people, that He will not reject His people whom He foreknew, either jew or greek, we are all predestined, all have a destiny.

As the second and third verses show, Peter is talking to God's beloved elect who have grace and peace multiplied from God to them, who are first off 'elect' so then are 'begotten again' according to God's mercy and so then they will be believers who are then sealed by the Holy Spirit, preserved by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

You presume on the meaning of elect. I disagree with that meaning.

Hammster · Aug 1, 2017

AlexDTX said:
You presume on the meaning of elect. I disagree with that meaning.

So what do you think is meant by chosen people?

AlexDTX · Aug 1, 2017

Hammster said:
So what do you think is meant by chosen people?

Those who choose salvation. It is a two way street. God knows those who will choose salvation, so they are his chosen, but we elect to choose salvation, thus we are the elect. Of course this is not how Calvinists define the terms so you will argue against it. What I find objectionable to the Calvinism is the irresponsibility that the doctrine promotes. If God chooses who is saved then the White Throne Judgement becomes a kangaroo court. But I do not believe that. Fairness means all have the same opportunity. If one if foreordained to damnation, then how is that fair? Yes, I understand that the wisdom of God is higher than mankind and that things that may seem unfair to us are still fair. But Jesus said we have to believe like little children. Right and wrong can be understood by children, so I don't believe my view of the White Throne Judgement is wrong. It is not a kangaroo court, and all are given the chance to accept or reject salvation. It is our choice to accept or reject. God's choice is that all abide in Christ. But Calvinists screw it up with the idea that the will of God is irresistible. I suppose if God were a tyrant as the omnipotent He could, but he chooses us to allow us to resist his desire because he gave us free will (again Calvinists deny free will, only a will) but it is free to reject Him as already shown in the Garden of Eden.

sdowney717 · Aug 1, 2017

AlexDTX said:
Those who choose salvation.

Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Romans 16:13
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

Hammster · Aug 1, 2017

AlexDTX said:
Those who choose salvation.

Then it would say God's choosing people. Chosen indicates that the people are the ones who have been chosen.

sdowney717 · Aug 1, 2017

Romans 8:33
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

We read to be elect means to be chosen by God.
We read God 's elect are justified by faith in Christ.
So all God chooses are elect and all are justified.
There are no non elect believers and all believers were elect before they were believers due to them all being foreknown as God's people. All God foreknew as His own people, God predestined.
And we have been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, so then before we were born He chose us in Him as believers.

God calls the things that are not, as though they were.
God declares the ending from the beginning.

Isaiah 46:10New King James Version (NKJV)
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

Therefore, it makes no sense for any other way than for some people to be elect before they existed.

AlexDTX · Aug 1, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Mark 13:20
And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

John 15:19
If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Romans 16:13
Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.

So what? A few proof texts out of context. I agree that God chooses, and I stated how I believe he chooses. You imply that God does not give us a choice because his choice over rides ours. That is contrary to the way of our King.

AlexDTX · Aug 1, 2017

Hammster said:
Then it would say God's choosing people. Chosen indicates that the people are the ones who have been chosen.

Why is it an either/or decision. That is a logical fallacy. There is choice on both parts. God wants all to repent, and chose that all who repent would be in Christ. Christ is the elect of God. We choose to abide in his choice. But it is an abomination to think God predetermines some for salvation and others for damnation. That is not character of a God of Love.

AlexDTX · Aug 1, 2017

sdowney717 said:
Romans 8:33
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

We read to be elect means to be chosen by God.
We read God 's elect are justified by faith in Christ.
So all God chooses are elect and all are justified.
There are no non elect believers and all believers were elect before they were believers due to them all being foreknown as God's people. All God foreknew as His own people, God predestined.
And we have been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, so then before we were born He chose us in Him as believers.

God calls the things that are not, as though they were.
God declares the ending from the beginning.

Isaiah 46:10New King James Version (NKJV)
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’

Therefore, it makes no sense for any other way than for some people to be elect before they existed.

There is no conversation with Calvinists. Your heart is hardened in your belief that there is only a monologue on your part. There is never an inquiry as to why someone believes contrary to your opinion with a genuine intention of understanding. Only a continuous attempt to prove your case.

It is not worth it. I am glad you are saved and you are my brother, but I really don't believe you understand out heavenly Father.

And, frankly, I think Calvinism appeals to fleshly pride. Look at me. God chose me. I must be wonderful! I prefer a wonderful God who damns no one and offers salvation to all the world, whosoever will accept it.

sdowney717 · Aug 1, 2017

AlexDTX said:
There is no conversation with Calvinists. Your heart is hardened in your belief that there is only a monologue on your part. There is never an inquiry as to why someone believes contrary to your opinion with a genuine intention of understanding. Only a continuous attempt to prove your case.

It is not worth it. I am glad you are saved and you are my brother, but I really don't believe you understand out heavenly Father.

And, frankly, I think Calvinism appeals to fleshly pride. Look at me. God chose me. I must be wonderful! I prefer a wonderful God who damns no one and offers salvation to all the world, whosoever will accept it.

You're quite mistaken about calvinism and pride.
No pride at all, if God does the choosing.

God's word says He does the choosing so no flesh can boast in His presence.

1 Corinthians 1
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Glory Only in the Lord
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,

29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

Hammster · Aug 1, 2017

AlexDTX said:
Why is it an either/or decision. That is a logical fallacy. There is choice on both parts. God wants all to repent, and chose that all who repent would be in Christ. Christ is the elect of God. We choose to abide in his choice. But it is an abomination to think God predetermines some for salvation and others for damnation. That is not character of a God of Love.

You can try to deflect by criticizing Calvinism, but it won't help.

I have a chosen profession. Did I chose the profession? Did it choose me? Did we choose each other?

Whenever something is chosen, something is acted upon. Chosen/elect are biblical words, and they mean something. Trying to change them to fit a theology is bad form.

Hammster · Aug 1, 2017

AlexDTX said:
And, frankly, I think Calvinism appeals to fleshly pride. Look at me. God chose me. I must be wonderful! I prefer a wonderful God who damns no one and offers salvation to all the world, whosoever will accept it.

Can't the same thing be said about your theology? Look at me! I was smart enough or spiritual enough or whatever, to choose God (remember, you think chosen means to choose God).

AlexDTX · Aug 2, 2017

sdowney717 said:
God's word says He does the choosing so no flesh can boast in His presence.

That is your interpretation from your calvinist bias. It does say the weak and despised are chosen, but it does not say God chose. It simply says chosen. The bible uses pronouns and many vague grammatical structures that leaves this open to interpretation. If it was plain and clear, then no one would disagree. But the disagreements are thousands of years old. And the Calvin vs Arminus dispute is half a millennia.

Hammster · Aug 2, 2017

AlexDTX said:
It does say the weak and despised are chosen, but it does not say God chose. It simply says chosen.

But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;

Can Calvinists explain this verse?

Well-Known Member

Carpe Chaos

Nonexistent Member

Veteran

Senior Veteran

Pardoned Rebel

Well-Known Member

Carpe Chaos

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Carpe Chaos

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Carpe Chaos

Carpe Chaos

Well-Known Member

Carpe Chaos

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency