dqhall

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Matthew 11:21 (NRSV) “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the deeds of power done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

According to Jesus, if Tyre and Sidon were shown miracles, they would have repented, proving who is and isn't "elect" is not fixed.

If they were elect in the Calvinist sense, they would be saved. They were not. If they were not elect in the Calvinist sense, no miracles would convince them. Jesus says otherwise.
Jesus taught one should make every effort to make it through the narrow gate... He did not say everything has already been determined.

God sent Jesus first to the Jews. Capernaum, Chorazin and Bethsaida are ruins of towns within about eight miles of each other near the north shore of Lake Chinnereth/Sea of Galilee. The area was periodically shaken by severe earthquakes and suffered plagues of cholera, malaria, smallpox etc.

A small percentage of Galileans became followers of Christ. Jews wrote the Gospels and Epistles. They spread the Gospel abroad and to the Gentiles/Goy. There are a few Messianic congregations in Israel to this day. Of the few Christians in Israel, most of these are of Arab descent. Tyre and Sidon is in Lebanon that is 40% Christian. If not for Muslim persecutions there would be more Christians.
 
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Anto9us

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I think the broader context of the OP does indeed punch a hole in Calvinism.

Then last night I thought of the verses about "blotting out one's name from the book of life" -- I mean, to be BLOTTED OUT means it was written in there to begin with -- and that to me punches holes in both Calvinism and Universalism...
 
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woobadooba

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Another verse to consider: Matthew 7:21 NKJV "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

If there is no free will, and we are all moving in the direction God wants, and some have been made to be saved and others to be lost, then how is it possible that we aren't all doing God's will?
 
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Friend-of-Jesus

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"There are none so blind as those who won't see."

Twin just answered the OP, or, shall I say, Christ answered the OP, and you reply by sticking your fingers into your ears, and covering your eyes.

Let's elect Jesus as president! He's going to be the best one ever.
 
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sdowney717

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The verse does not say he will draw all men, which is italicized which means that the translators added it for clarification. The topic he is speaking of is being lifted up on the cross. The context shows that he means all sin will be drawn to him. In other words, his redemption will be total.
His redemption is total for the believer, but unbelievers die in their sins. So their sins are not drawn to Christ.

John 8:21
[ Jesus Predicts His Departure ] Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”

John 8:24
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
 
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sdowney717

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He did not want Paul to preach there because the harvest was ripe in Macedonia. These same cities of northern Turkey (Asia Minor) are the same that Peter addresses his epistles to.

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.​

Either Peter had ministered to them or someone else, but they became believers and he sent his letter to them first.
This was the diaspora that Peter was writing to, believers scattered out in various places due to persecutions. So they were all of them believers before they left Jerusalem. Peter would have likely ministered to them before the diaspora. (dispersion). Further on Peter consoles them for the fiery trials of the faith they were enduring.

'To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,'
 
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sdowney717

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That doesn't logically follow. God directed their steps elsewhere. He did not want them to go to Asia, at least just then. If he did not want the gospel preached in Asia why did Jesus tell the disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel? Or perhaps it's my logic that's wrong, and in fact Asia is not part of the world?

God could quite easily have other people evangelising in Asia, or in his own plans the timing was not exactly right.
He forbid them to preach in those areas, he had other plans for them.
Neither of us knows if anyone at the time was already preaching there, but they sought to preach there, so we can assume they knew no one was preaching there, meaning they had not heard yet the gospel. Regardless God tells us they can not believe unless they hear, and unless He sends someone to preach they can not know about Christ. And God forbid them to preach there, so they were not elect to hear the message. Perhaps at a later time. People come and go.

God sends preachers, preachers speak the Word aloud, people hear the message, if they hear God speak, then they believe and call on Him to save them. Because Faith comes by Hearing God Speak to You.

Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

Adn even hearing a preacher speaking does not mean people are elect. Because not all have believed the message. Only the elect will believe upon hearing the Word of the Lord speaking to them.
 
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Thursday

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Romans 10, God must send someone for them to hear, and if God does not send someone, If God forbids they preach to them, then, God has not determined they hear the gospel of salvation, so they must not be elect then.


Not true. Jesus can save someone who has never heard of him.

To whom much is given much is expected. The ignorant servant will be judged differently than the servant who knows his master's will but rejects it.
 
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sdowney717

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Another verse to consider: Matthew 7:21 NKJV "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

If there is no free will, and we are all moving in the direction God wants, and some have been made to be saved and others to be lost, then how is it possible that we aren't all doing God's will?

John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Those who do His will are those in whom He has worked so that they believe in the Son.
God does not fail in this working of His. All God gives to Christ will come to Christ. And you can not enter into Christ any other way, salvation is a gift of God, not of yourself. All other ways are of robbers and thieves to try to gain entrance to His sheepfold. You must be drawn by God to Christ. and all God draws make it into the sheep pen.
We do come to Christ in belief after He gives us to Christ beforehand, this is simply the being predestined to be conformed part as Paul teaches in Romans 8.
We do this because He has made us born again and the Holy Spirit teaches us about the Son and so we then embrace Christ willingly, John 6:44-45.
John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
 
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AlexDTX

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His redemption is total for the believer, but unbelievers die in their sins. So their sins are not drawn to Christ.
His redemption is total. Period. However, it only benefits those who believe, but he died for all the world. Whosoever will believe will receive. He is not willing that any should perish, but that should believe. I find this Calvinistic distinction between those who do accept Christ as though they only are God's will for salvation to be disturbing.
 
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AlexDTX

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This was the diaspora that Peter was writing to, believers scattered out in various places due to persecutions. So they were all of them believers before they left Jerusalem. Peter would have likely ministered to them before the diaspora. (dispersion). Further on Peter consoles them for the fiery trials of the faith they were enduring.

'To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,'
I think that is a valid possibility, however, how can you say that they were only the believers that came from Pentecost? The dispersion also included Jews who were not saved, and may have been saved by the preaching of those from Pentecost and, for all we know, Peter. Furthermore, Peter had the ministry to the Jews whereas Paul had his ministry to the Greeks.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Not true. Jesus can save someone who has never heard of him.

To whom much is given much is expected. The ignorant servant will be judged differently than the servant who knows his master's will but rejects it.

Guess we don't need the Great Commission. Jesus obviously was mistaken about it. Missionaries are a complete waste of time. . .
 
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sdowney717

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I think that is a valid possibility, however, how can you say that they were only the believers that came from Pentecost? The dispersion also included Jews who were not saved, and may have been saved by the preaching of those from Pentecost and, for all we know, Peter. Furthermore, Peter had the ministry to the Jews whereas Paul had his ministry to the Greeks.
Peter wrote to the 'beloved' who were 'elect'
So when we read God is not willing that any of 'you' perish, we need to keep in context to who Peter is referring, which is His elect whom He foreknew as his own people, that He will not reject His people whom He foreknew, either jew or greek, we are all predestined, all have a destiny.

As the second and third verses show, Peter is talking to God's beloved elect who have grace and peace multiplied from God to them, who are first off 'elect' so then are 'begotten again' according to God's mercy and so then they will be believers who are then sealed by the Holy Spirit, preserved by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Elect Pilgrims
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
 
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Hammster

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I think the broader context of the OP does indeed punch a hole in Calvinism.

Then last night I thought of the verses about "blotting out one's name from the book of life" -- I mean, to be BLOTTED OUT means it was written in there to begin with -- and that to me punches holes in both Calvinism and Universalism...
Which verses are those?
 
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Hammster

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Guess we don't need the Great Commission. Jesus obviously was mistaken about it. Missionaries are a complete waste of time. . .
It might even be better not to witness.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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It might even be better not to witness.

True. It makes people more culpable.

If they get a free "get of of Hell card" for not knowing (all men know according to Romans 1) then a missionary is actually helping fill Hell. (if the poster is correct)
 
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