Can Calvinists explain this verse?

[sdowney717]

That is your interpretation from your calvinist bias. It does say the weak and despised are chosen, but it does not say God chose. It simply says chosen. The bible uses pronouns and many vague grammatical structures that leaves this open to interpretation. If it was plain and clear, then no one would disagree. But the disagreements are thousands of years old. And the Calvin vs Arminus dispute is half a millennia.

Your just triggering emotions off a word called calvinism.

 

[AlexDTX]

You can try to deflect by criticizing Calvinism, but it won't help.

I have a chosen profession. Did I chose the profession? Did it choose me? Did we choose each other?

Whenever something is chosen, something is acted upon. Chosen/elect are biblical words, and they mean something. Trying to change them to fit a theology is bad form.

Your argument makes little sense. You chose your profession, but God prepared you for your profession. I became a gymnastics coach when I was in my 20's because that is all I knew how to do since I was a gymnast. I came to Christ at 32, twelve years later. I sought the Lord on what He wanted me to do for my profession. He told me to coach gymnastics because it was good for children. Who made the choice? I did. But why did I make that choice? Because God prepared me to make that choice. Choice with God is a two way street, not one way. We are both involved with the choice.

Also, who are the Elect? From a natural reading, all who come to Christ. But who does God call the Elect? I am convinced the Elect is Jesus. He is God's choice. And all of us who answer the invitation to accept the salvation of Christ become part of Jesus, so we are also the Elect.

 

[AlexDTX]

Your just triggering emotions off a word called calvinism.

Fine. I admit I find the doctrine reprehensible. I do not find followers of the doctrine reprehensible, but I find talking to them, as I said, before to be a monologue. There is never any interest in inquiring why a person embraces free will, but only a constant proof texting to prove that Calvinism is right. No argument will convince me because I also listen to my heart and common sense regarding my relationship with Christ. Calvinism is not a heart doctrine, it is an academic doctrine of the head.

 

[sdowney717]

' But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise,'
' God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty'

Paul's letter agrees with words of Christ
Luke 10
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”

The willing to reveal implies God's sovereign choice to whom He will.

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

And with that one verse, Paul tells us not all are called.

 

[sdowney717]

Paul and the other apostles equate being called leads to a most certain salvation.
But many people say an uncertain salvation awaits for those He calls.

They forget the power of God that changes the heart, changes the nature of the beast like heart, of the flesh, from man raging against God, speaking evil of things he does not understand, to one who is now in his right mind and can call upon God with a clean heart with purer motives, a true worshiper of God in Spirit and in Truth, God has changed him into a spiritual man of the Holy Spirit, we are His workmanship, God is the master creator who creates us a new creatures in Christ.

Psalm 73:21-23New King James Version (NKJV)
21 Thus my heart was grieved,
And I was vexed in my mind.

22 I was so foolish and ignorant;
I was like a beast before You.

23 Nevertheless I am continually with You;
You hold me by my right hand.

 

[Hammster]

Your argument makes little sense. You chose your profession, but God prepared you for your profession. I became a gymnastics coach when I was in my 20's because that is all I knew how to do since I was a gymnast. I came to Christ at 32, twelve years later. I sought the Lord on what He wanted me to do for my profession. He told me to coach gymnastics because it was good for children. Who made the choice? I did. But why did I make that choice? Because God prepared me to make that choice. Choice with God is a two way street, not one way. We are both involved with the choice.

Also, who are the Elect? From a natural reading, all who come to Christ. But who does God call the Elect? I am convinced the Elect is Jesus. He is God's choice. And all of us who answer the invitation to accept the salvation of Christ become part of Jesus, so we are also the Elect.

I really think you missed the point. Anything that is chosen does not do the chosing. So if we were picking teams, and I chose Bobby to be on my team, who did the choosing?

 

[Hammster]

Fine. I admit I find the doctrine reprehensible. I do not find followers of the doctrine reprehensible, but I find talking to them, as I said, before to be a monologue. There is never any interest in inquiring why a person embraces free will, but only a constant proof texting to prove that Calvinism is right. No argument will convince me because I also listen to my heart and common sense regarding my relationship with Christ. Calvinism is not a heart doctrine, it is an academic doctrine of the head.

If you listen to your heart and common sense, and neither are informed by the word, then you are worshipping an idol.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;

What an insult, and what a delight: "foolish and weak".

 

[jimmyjimmy]

No argument will convince me because I also listen to my heart and common sense

Therein lies the problem. Your heart and common sense trump God's Word. Let God's Word form your thinking, and you will be in an infinitely better place.

 

[Dale]

Those who choose salvation. It is a two way street. God knows those who will choose salvation, so they are his chosen, but we elect to choose salvation, thus we are the elect. Of course this is not how Calvinists define the terms so you will argue against it. What I find objectionable to the Calvinism is the irresponsibility that the doctrine promotes. If God chooses who is saved then the White Throne Judgement becomes a kangaroo court. But I do not believe that. Fairness means all have the same opportunity. If one if foreordained to damnation, then how is that fair? Yes, I understand that the wisdom of God is higher than mankind and that things that may seem unfair to us are still fair. But Jesus said we have to believe like little children. Right and wrong can be understood by children, so I don't believe my view of the White Throne Judgement is wrong. It is not a kangaroo court, and all are given the chance to accept or reject salvation. It is our choice to accept or reject. God's choice is that all abide in Christ. But Calvinists screw it up with the idea that the will of God is irresistible. I suppose if God were a tyrant as the omnipotent He could, but he chooses us to allow us to resist his desire because he gave us free will (again Calvinists deny free will, only a will) but it is free to reject Him as already shown in the Garden of Eden.

Alex,
Let me give a couple of verses that I believe will back up what you have just said. One is from the OT and one from the NT.


The prophet Amos talks about the Chosen People.

2“You only have I chosen
of all the families of the earth;
therefore I will punish you
for all your sins.”
3 Do two walk together
unless they have agreed to do so?
Amos 3:2-3 NIV

Do two walk together if they have not agreed? Yes, it is a mutual decision.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:10-11 NIV

Yes, “your calling” and your “election” must be confirmed, and confirmed by actions. That is why Peter says to “do these things.”

 

[Thursday]

Guess we don't need the Great Commission. Jesus obviously was mistaken about it. Missionaries are a complete waste of time. . .

You are changing the subject. Do you believe that a person who lives and dies without ever hearing about Jesus automatically goes to Hell?

 

[Hammster]

Do you believe that a person who lives and dies without ever hearing about Jesus automatically goes to Hell?

In most cases, yes.

 

[sdowney717]

Alex,
Let me give a couple of verses that I believe will back up what you have just said. One is from the OT and one from the NT.


The prophet Amos talks about the Chosen People.

2“You only have I chosen
of all the families of the earth;
therefore I will punish you
for all your sins.”
3 Do two walk together
unless they have agreed to do so?
Amos 3:2-3 NIV

Do two walk together if they have not agreed? Yes, it is a mutual decision.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:10-11 NIV

Yes, “your calling” and your “election” must be confirmed, and confirmed by actions. That is why Peter says to “do these things.”

3 Do two walk together
unless they have agreed to do so?

True, they wont walk together.
Why did so many of Christ's disciples depart from Him?

John 6
Many Disciples Turn Away
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

God granted that they would believe in Christ.

Verses like Romans 8 tell us those who are in the flesh can not please God and are at enmity with God, so they wont be desiring to remain with Christ and certainly wont be walking with Christ.

How we get there is to be born again, and become a spiritual minded man, that is God grants us to know Christ the Truth, He does that by making us born of Him, so we have peace and mercy and blessing from God. Then they willingly walk together.

But that is His choice, not our own to born again. John 1:10-13

These words would not be in God's word if these concepts were of no importance.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[AlexDTX]

Therein lies the problem. Your heart and common sense trump God's Word. Let God's Word form your thinking, and you will be in an infinitely better place.

Your intellect trumps God's Spirit.

 

[Thursday]

In most cases, yes.

In which cases is the answer no?

Here's what I believe:

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35 but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. "

 

[Hammster]

In which cases is the answer no?

Here's what I believe:

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35 but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. "

Right. He doesn't just favor the Jews.

Context.

 

[Thursday]

Right. He doesn't just favor the Jews.

Context.

Who do you think is excluded in this passage?

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35 but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. "

 

[Hammster]

Who do you think is excluded in this passage?

Acts 10
34Then Peter began to speak: “I now truly understand that God does not show favoritism, 35 but welcomes those from every nation who fear Him and do what is right. "

Unbelievers. I'm not a universalist.

 

[Thursday]

Unbelievers. I'm not a universalist.

The verse says those who fear him AND do what is right. It says nothing about belief.

 

[Hammster]

The verse says those who fear him AND do what is right. It says nothing about belief.

Do you think unbelievers fear Him?